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Are we too politically cautious?

  • 25-05-2010 12:55pm
    #1
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭


    This post has been deleted.


Comments

  • #2
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I suppose a fundamental tennent of parliamentary democracy is that people have the right to vote for whoever they want, or not vote at all. It is infuriating to see that politics has been reduced to the lowest common denominator, but that's what people vote for.

    I can try to influence someone to vote differently, but other than that there is little I can do. In much the same way, I can't stop people buying houses, I can only suggest to them that they may be overpaying.

    If people's attitudes don't change because of recent events then that is their own fault and it is unfortunate. However, a radical change will not help that.

    If you really want to change Irish politics, why don't you run for the dail with your libertarian views. I'm sure there will be pockets of support in a few areas, particularly around Dublin, who will vote you in. Then you can change things as much as you are able.


  • #3
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    I read that article with great interest. It certainly strikes a chord, and is something I've noted and heard remarks upon by people from European peer countries.

    We are a naturally conservative country. Even in the unrest of the 1980's, the vast majority remained conservative in their views and the manner in which they expressed them.

    Where does this lead from? A national mentality? Our education? Our history in general?

    I think a lot has to do with the middle class, generally, being the group that is least organized (why do we need to be, for one, and we are so disperate, for another) and least likely to kick up a fuss.

    But it does go deeper than that.

    Ireland needs fundamental reform. And the beginning of that reform must not be a second republic, as we are now hearing about... It must be the movement to action of the people. Only then will we create a 'second republic' that can serve us better than this one.


  • #4
    steelcityblues
    Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    No point in pretending we are a truly 'liberal' nation either!


  • #5
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Very interesting. I'm not entirely sure where we get this from but I would imagine it stems from a number of things.

    Firstly we are an island. We are quite insular and although we emigrated we never had experience of driving over borders into other countries and cultures the way mainland Europe does. There are still people in this country (older generations) who have never been abroad...look how long it took some people to get used to seeing black people and foreign people living here.

    Secondly, (I've said this before) socially we are streets behind most of Europe. We have barely ruled ourselves for a century yet. We have a lot of catching up to do.

    Thirdly (and I do NOT buy into the "blame the English" mentality, but it may have some bearing here), we were ruled into the ground for so long, and our middle classes obliterated - we have an inbuilt distrust of any kind of authority or external forces or anything new and different.

    Fourthly, we are insular in our communities aswell. Witness the way Government works in this country...as a public representative, you look after your local town, local GAA club, local farmers, local shops - and hang everybody and everything else. Until we cut the ties between elected politicians and responsbility for their local area, we are never going to solve this problem - we govern in regions as opposed to a whole. Possibly harks back to the celtic tribal times - possibly just an Irish (GAA based!!!!!) quirk.

    It will take a long time before we actually do anything about it, I feel. Mankind as a whole is fairly resistant to sudden changes - the unknown.We seem to have this resistance in bucketloads! The article makes a very interesting point though.


  • #6
    Hazlittle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭Hazlittle


    most people want radical change. There just isnt a common consensus to what that change is.


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  • #7
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8
    Hazlittle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭Hazlittle


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Most people I speak to have little idea on how the political system works. They seem to want things which are physically impossible.


  • #9
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Hazlittle wrote: »
    Most people I speak to have little idea on how the political system works. They seem to want things which are physically impossible.
    What do you mean?


  • #10
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    We are a small Island Nation, which will always be influenced by outside economies.

    Just like every other nation, we will have more booms and more busts in the future.

    We must keep the status quo, simply so we have someone to blame when we hit the busts......


  • #11
    Hazlittle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭Hazlittle


    Valmont wrote: »
    What do you mean?

    Oh nonsense like asking for a new effective opposition against the government. Its impossible if people who wish for such things dont go forward and set these things up. Reversing NAMA is another one. Taxing the rich to save all our problems. Coming up with a good job creation plan that doesnt destroy other jobs in the process. The drug war is another pointless endeavor. Getting the public sector to work properly. Protecting peoples jobs or wages. Oh not having corrupt leaders, thats impossible since power naturally creates corruption. Might as well be asking for Lost to make sense.


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  • #12
    Knarr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Knarr


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    We are a naturally conservative country. Even in the unrest of the 1980's, the vast majority remained conservative in their views and the manner in which they expressed them.

    Where does this lead from? A national mentality? Our education? Our history in general?

    I think a lot has to do with the middle class, generally, being the group that is least organized (why do we need to be, for one, and we are so disperate, for another) and least likely to kick up a fuss.

    But it does go deeper than that.

    Most people are 'naturally conservative' in most societies.

    This theory is interesting here...

    "System justification theory (SJT) is a scientific theory within social psychology that proposes people have a motivation to defend and bolster the status quo, that is, to see it as good, legitimate, and desirable."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_justification
    http://www.psychwiki.com/wiki/System_Justification_Theory

    Putting it down to an inherent national conservatism I dont think makes sense.


  • #13
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Personally i don't think we are politically cautious enough,Any Joe so who fancies the big wages is in there.
    Not enough questions are asked and majority of Irish people would not even know where to start asking the right questions.
    In order to weed out the ones who in the long run lets be honest with our selves do not care about the normal every day person in Ireland.Irish people must become more politically educated.So we as a people can spot the mistakes they are making and the bad deals they have gotten involved in.
    They see themselves as smarter then the public and they will always use it to their advantage.As you can see they are not been effected in anyway shape or form,while you and i are.
    It would be similar to the Romans rule.


  • #14
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I would say the problem is apathy rather than caution and conformity. The majority of the electorate are not terribly concerned about the particulars of government - for example, I would wager that the average person would struggle to name five members of the current cabinet and their respective portfolios. I'm not entirely sure of the reasons for this malaise - Ireland just does not seem to be a terribly politically-conscious country.


  • #15
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    political change is unlikely to come quick as we have an almost pathological need to vote along family lines in this country , this is especially true in rural ireland where present policy is secondary to who your grandad voted for 70 years ago


  • #16
    piby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 539 ✭✭✭piby


    I've often thought about this issue. Is our country too soft, too fearful of radical change? The answer I repeatedly come up with is yes! But I think this is for a number of reasons. Other posters have made good points about the fact that we are an island country so we are naturally a bit insular and because we're small we're heavily dependent on larger economies.

    But there's also, and it's been alluded to, the historical precedent. We were a nation ravaged by wars, famine, political instability and religious devide for a large part of our modern history (i.e. since the 1600's). This continued in one form or another until the 1980's in that we we're quite poor. I think it's a case that anybody who remembers before the 1980's is content with the overall much better standards and ways of life of the Ireland of today. The other point that ties in with that is our historical attachment to the Catholic Church which gave rise to our conservatism.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next couple of decades. I'm in my early 20's and I consider myself very liberal and most of my friends and people my age seem to be so inclined. So as our generations take over will this be reflected in our political attitudes? Or will it just smoulder out with 'growing up'?

    "If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're 40, you have no head."


  • #17
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    What people keep missing is that the way our voting system is structured (PR-STV), no voting block can be left out or ignored - you have to seek transfers from everywhere and be all things to all people.


  • #18
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    piby wrote: »
    I've often thought about this issue. Is our country too soft, too fearful of radical change? The answer I repeatedly come up with is yes! But I think this is for a number of reasons. Other posters have made good points about the fact that we are an island country so we are naturally a bit insular and because we're small we're heavily dependent on larger economies.

    But there's also, and it's been alluded to, the historical precedent. We were a nation ravaged by wars, famine, political instability and religious devide for a large part of our modern history (i.e. since the 1600's). This continued in one form or another until the 1980's in that we we're quite poor. I think it's a case that anybody who remembers before the 1980's is content with the overall much better standards and ways of life of the Ireland of today. The other point that ties in with that is our historical attachment to the Catholic Church which gave rise to our conservatism.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next couple of decades. I'm in my early 20's and I consider myself very liberal and most of my friends and people my age seem to be so inclined. So as our generations take over will this be reflected in our political attitudes? Or will it just smoulder out with 'growing up'?

    "If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're 40, you have no head."

    One thing that annoys me (it kind of ties in with your second paragraph) about people (older generation) claiming that young people are crazy, causing god knows what destroying the country, rabble rabble etc
    But it was their f***ing generation that repeatedly voted like f***tards sat around while a glorified paedophile ring held massive influence over the country, and as for the drinking bit of young people it's their generation that sells the young people the drink and the whole behaviour could be almost ended if they wanted.


  • #19
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    fontanalis wrote: »
    One thing that annoys me (it kind of ties in with your second paragraph) about people (older generation) claiming that young people are crazy, causing god knows what destroying the country, rabble rabble etc
    But it was their f***ing generation that repeatedly voted like f***tards sat around while a glorified paedophile ring held massive influence over the country, and as for the drinking bit of young people it's their generation that sells the young people the drink and the whole behaviour could be almost ended if they wanted.

    Are you saying the older generation knew about that?

    Do you know how younger generation gets alcohol?


  • #20
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    caseyann wrote: »
    Are you saying the older generation knew about that?

    Do you know how younger generation gets alcohol?

    I'd say there were suspicions but people were too afraid or trusted the church blindly. There was one program on where someone was talking about a case that came to light and someone more or less said that there were stories going around long before about the priests tendencies. I'm not trying to re-analyse that whole issue but trying to point out that it happened under a generation that so blindly writes off another.
    Younger people get their alcohol in a lot of cases from bars owned by older people, just using it as an example of how it's not good enough for some adults to doing the whole "younger generation/back in my day" thing.


  • #21
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    One thing that annoys me (it kind of ties in with your second paragraph) about people (older generation) claiming that young people are crazy, causing god knows what destroying the country, rabble rabble etc
    But it was their f***ing generation that repeatedly voted like f***tards sat around while a glorified paedophile ring held massive influence over the country, and as for the drinking bit of young people it's their generation that sells the young people the drink and the whole behaviour could be almost ended if they wanted.

    Hang on there a minute.

    I'm one of the older generation, and I simply don't work with such generalisations. I have noticed that people are individuals, and that some are irresponsible and others are not, and that it is not entirely age-related.

    And you should recognise that the large majority of my generation were unaware of the serious abuse of children that happened. Many knew, as I did, that places like Artane and Dangan and Letterfrack were considered hard places, but thought that all that meant was a tough regime. I was subject to corporal punishment at school, and I supposed that kids in reformatories or industrial schools also would be. That's how things were back then. [It happens that I was in Letterfrack last weekend, doing a bit of tourism. I happened on the cemetery of the industrial school, and spent some time there. It's disturbing.]

    Don't tar everybody with the one brush. Don't put all people of my generation in the one category. Life's a bit more complicated, and more varied, than that.


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  • #22
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Hang on there a minute.

    I'm one of the older generation, and I simply don't work with such generalisations. I have noticed that people are individuals, and that some are irresponsible and others are not, and that it is not entirely age-related.

    And you should recognise that the large majority of my generation were unaware of the serious abuse of children that happened. Many knew, as I did, that places like Artane and Dangan and Letterfrack were considered hard places, but thought that all that meant was a tough regime. I was subject to corporal punishment at school, and I supposed that kids in reformatories or industrial schools also would be. That's how things were back then. [It happens that I was in Letterfrack last weekend, doing a bit of tourism. I happened on the cemetery of the industrial school, and spent some time there. It's disturbing.]

    Don't tar everybody with the one brush. Don't put all people of my generation in the one category. Life's a bit more complicated, and more varied, than that.

    I'm not trying to tar everyone with the same brush and I wasn't trying to offer a great analysis, and I know not all of the older generation are like that but it's something that I heard an awful lot of when I was younger.
    And part of the bringing up the abuses was to point out that things weren't necessarily some paradise "back in the day".


  • #23
    maninasia
    Registered Users Posts: 4,615 ✭✭✭maninasia


    I think it's economic based presently. A huge proportion of the workforce depends on the state, also many families have state workers. They fear losing their historically high incomes, it will probably happen anyway over long term. I think they pretty much all know that other countries systems don't pay aswell (UK anyone). They don't like NAMA etc. but they'll look after no.1 first!


    There's also a lot of people who probably think that this is the way it was before and it's natural to have these terrible busts in Ireland.


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