Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

bk wrote: »

You may have forgotten, but when the Luas was being planned, the newspapers were full of articles saying that it was going to be a white elephant, cost overruns, wouldn't be used and add to that screams from the cities business leaders :rolleyes:

Just a bit young to have read the articles at the time but I'm aware of the opposition

bk wrote: »

I've no doubt that the planners knew that Luas was going to be a massive success and it would open overcapacity, just like most of us on this forum did. However the people of Ireland were not convinced ... neither were the politicians.

My mother worked with a guy who had been involved in the design of first stages of the M50 - including the original Red Cow interchange :eek:

He had to put up with some amount of abuse - 'how could they have planned it so badly' 'whoever designed the junctions should be hung drawn and quartered'.

He frequently pointed out that they knew it wouldn't work, told everyone it wouldn't work, but when they showed how much it would cost to provide free flow junctions the politicians point blank refused to countenance spending that sort of money.

Never mind that they spent multiples of that amount to fix the mistakes after the fact - it just wouldn't have gotten built if they tried to do it right first time.

spacetweek wrote: »

Marno, I've been trying to find confirmation that this is the plan but can't. Have you seen any?

https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2017-03-22a.9

In the above link from an Oireachtas meeting on the Capital Plan review, Michael Nolan of TII says that the location of the tie-in with the green line south of the city centre is one of the issues that need to be teased out in relation to MN. He is basically implying that metro north and metro south will be done as the one combined project.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/metrostyle-green-line-upgrade-to-add-capacity-35425965.html

In this second link, the NTA's Anne Graham is interviewed, and it is mentioned that the NTA "is also considering scrapping a number of stops around O'Connell Street, and redesigning the system to take in the existing Luas Green Line."


Yes, the current overcrowding issues on the green line will be solved by the introduction of the 54m trams, however by the time MN opens in 2027 (if they don't go with the sensible original one), there will be more offices in Sandyford, Central Park will be fully developed, more houses will be built in Ballyogan, the Carrickmines shopping centre will be fully developed, and not least to mention that the huge Cherrywood development will be complete and there will be thousands of apartments there and also a large shopping centre.

She says it herself: "The environment has changed," NTA chief executive Anne Graham said. "There's new development plans on the route.
"We're looking to see how Metro North would tie in with the Green Line. We think we need that level of capacity with (long-term) housing plans for Cherrywood, Sandyford and Fassaroe (in Wicklow)."

I feel though that a lot has to be done for Metro South. Up to Sandyford, the removal is required of the Stillorgan, Milltown and Beechwood crossings and a tie-in to MN needs to be sorted. The Stillorgan one would easily be eliminated by a bridge or underpass, with the stop either under or over the road, depending on the chosen option. Milltown and Beechwood, the roads just need to be closed. Quite straightforward.

South of Sandyford, the bridge at Blackthorn Avenue with the ramp is too tight a curve for metro trams- 60m or 90m. It is a very tight 90 degrees curve. The Luas has to go at less than 10 km/h around that curve, and this cant be done when they are proposing 30 tph on the line. Too slow. It also interacts with traffic here. A tunnel under Central Park with an underground station would fix this-it is possible, and there is room to do it. A straighter viaduct through Central Park also would do the trick here. Both evaluated when Luas Line B1 was being planned. Ruled out on cost grounds, but would have shaved 3 min or so off journey times. See page 13 of the EIS here: http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/luas-line-b1/Volume%201.pdf and also page 10 here: http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/luas-line-b1/Non%20Technical%20Summary.pdf

Between Glencairn and Ballyogan Wood, the line would need to be put into a retained open cutting or a cut and cover tunnel in order to segregate it from traffic at the entrances to housing estates and also increase the speed limits on that part of the line.

Really, the problem lies in the fact that south of Sandyford, the green line stupidly was not built to cater for metro trains to run on the line in the future. The speed limit varies from 50 kph to 10 kph to 40 kph. Rarely is a full 70 kph capable south of Sandyford as the infrastructure stupidly was not built for it. Full 70 kph speeds are capable between Charlemont and Sandyford. Too many road crossings also.

Reading that indo article again (like I did in Feb) just made my blood boil.

It still makes me seethe that the tunneling option starting at Heuston rather than Inchicore is being considered on top of the the fact that we NEED to upgrade the green line.

Has an alternative route not been considered to tie in with MN and leave the Green Line alone. Perhaps interchange somewhere else rather than teh obsession with SSG.

I was only thinking of the murder it will cause to tunnel under SSG and lead to its closure for years when I waswalking through it today. We can open a portal else where and may supply another part of Dublin with some rail based transport options.

I Think the SE corridor is probably well-served for the moment.

The way that those who make these decisions seem to be so "farsighted" with the SE of Dublin and yet the likes of DU which would open up the Western part of the city can be dropped with little thought is so infuriating.

Just bear it in mind that is MS does go ahead we will have had

The original Green Line.
Green Line Extension
Upgade of Green Line Platforms
Cross City
And then MN



All to serve the same bloody area! Meanwhile you can't get a train from Lucan to the centre of the city or a Dart from Maynooth despite these being planned well in advance of MN

And this ignores the bus services and Dart. on the Stillorgan-Blackrock Corridor

It beggars belief. Then you remember where we are.

bk wrote: »

Saying that in retrospect is all fine and good but it ignores the public and political opinion at the time.

I've no doubt that the planners knew that Luas was going to be a massive success and it would open overcapacity, just like most of us on this forum did. However the people of Ireland were not convinced about Luas at all and as a result neither were the politicians.

You may have forgotten, but when the Luas was being planned, the newspapers were full of articles saying that it was going to be a white elephant, cost overruns, wouldn't be used and add to that screams from the cities business leaders :rolleyes:

As a result, the project was scaled back and Luas cross city was canned at the time.

I would have loved had the Luas been cut and cover along Abbey Street with a bus corridor above it, but the reality that would have exploded the cost of the project and it probably would never have gotten built.

The sad truth is the public wasn't convinced about it and Luas had to prove itself on a smaller scale first.

The great news is that Luas was wildly successful and the public loved it and as a result, all the Luas projects since (extensions, longer trams, longer stations, Luas Crosscity) have gone through with almost zero opposition and loads of public support, pretty much unlike any project I've seen before in Ireland.

And at least the planners had made it easy to expand as it gained public support.

Unfortunately this mindset seems to be a trend with Irish people. We seem to be generally very conservative, in denial that things can be done better, afraid to look abroad for best practices, etc. We seem to need things to be totally broken first before we try and fix things.

We saw it in the past with DART, the motorways, port tunnel, Luas, etc. All were called white elephants first, until the first of them was opened and then we loved them and called for more.

We are unfortunately seeing this again with Metro North. People aren't convinced we need a "fancy underground". Of course people will love it once built and will complain about how overcrowded it is when built!

I actually think they made a mistake calling it a Metro. I think they would have been better branding it as Luas North, but otherwise exactly the same as MN (stations, trains, route, etc.). I think there would have been far more public support for it if people had thought of it as a Luas that happens to just run underground for a bit!

I've no doubt that MN will be widely successful and that it will be just the start of us building more underground including DU. I'm just hoping NMN won't be too hobbled and that again the planners will be able to sneak by lots of room for expansion (at least 90m capable station boxes, 60m trams that can easily extended to 90m, etc.).

BTW you see the same with banning cars from the quays, the College Green square, multi-door bus operations, etc., you really have to drag Irish people kicking and screaming into the 21st century!

That is a very simplified and assumptive depiction of how things happened in relation to luas. It comes across more like an opinion rather than actual fact. Your references to "people" and "public" is somewhat misguided and unfair. In fact its lazy. If you would like me to correct you, I will. I just haven't got time tonight.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I'd be interested to read that grandeeod. I think the post you are referring to is very good, and a lot of truth in it. I think it gives way too much credit though to the public in general and our politicians, who realistically wouldn't know their arse from their elbow in anything transport related ...

Don't have time at the min to go into detail, but what struck me about BK's post was the references to ordinary people influencing decisions about luas. That is absolutely not true. It was political and then referenced in the media in relation to vested interests. Once I have time I will happily post in more detail.

The Metro is something where it is hard to understand why the Government is not making more of a priority of it. If we don't start transporting our people around correctly, things will get worse. It is not rocket science to understand that

I wouldn't expect this is news to anyone here but interesting all the same.

http://m.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/chamber-ceo-fires-parting-shot-to-speed-metro-north-35866914.html

Promising news though all the projects he's mentioned were name checked in Varadkar's manifesto so a chance he's just been informed of an announcement and regurgitating the old info. Hopefully the original project is revived if it is true

Would be interested in why McCarthy considers it a white elephant as well, no doubt he thought the same of T2 at the airport and various other massively beneficial schemes

bk wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm aware the transport should be an on going project but BX and the longer platforms should of been there from day one and BX and Luas past James should have been underground. Instead they've happened over the course of 12 years . AKA it was fudged initially and  BX is still a fudge.

I've no doubt that the planners knew that Luas was going to be a massive success and it would open overcapacity, just like most of us on this forum did. However the people of Ireland were not convinced about Luas at all and as a result neither were the politicians.

I read somewhere once that the Green line was something like 20% over expectations after a year but that the red line was 10% or so under. I can't find a source again for this though.

What I think this says is that passengers will really appreciate a grade-separated, fast service.

The effective catchment of MN could be 2 km from the stations. A long walk to a very fast service will always beat a short walk to a crawling Dublin Bus.

If Varadkar resists tax cuts and opts instead for infrastructural investment it will be a first in our modern history and I'll forgive the man just about anything else he does that I don't approve of!

Bray Head wrote: »

The effective catchment of MN could be 2 km from the stations. A long walk to a very fast service will always beat a short walk to a crawling Dublin Bus.

Hopefully plenty of buses feeding into the line from east and west and even from towns further north of it.