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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #1802
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    Surely the Clonmel BP pre-dates the NRA??

    No.

    NRA is 1993/4 or so, Clonmel BP is 1999 finish date:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/new-bypass-will-reduce-traffic-flow-in-clonmel-1.188466

    Part of it is present on the 1995 OSI aerial photos but its clearly very new as the ground disturbance is visible.


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    #1803
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Conba wrote: »
    And let's not forget the Nenagh bypass that had to be upgraded to motorway very shortly after being built.

    It didn't have to be.

    The decision to upgrade the entire route between Limerick and Dublin to motorway or dual-carriageway meant that Nenagh needed to be bypassed by a motorway.

    It was done because it was cheaper to do that than build an entirely new motorway bypass of Nenagh.


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    #1804
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    tippsean wrote: »
    Could it be possible that a lot of effort, land and money could be saved by considering an alternative to the 2 new roads being discussed here, namely the M20 & the M24, and with major cost savings the actual projects might start?

    I travel daily with my business…mainly in Munster, and the delays in these projects are frustrating, but I’m curious about the logic behind the plans in any case.

    The proposed M20 is circa 60 miles long. The proposed M24 is 35 miles long. The M24 is proposed to begin at junction 10 on the M8. The M20 begins in Cork. Why not facilitate both routes by using one west-bound (Limerick) piece of motorway from a junction further down the M8 towards Cork and serve all Limerick bound traffic from one new 35 mile stretch of motorway?

    The M8 is currently under-utilised, the toll system is already in place, and to my mind there is no need to build circa 105 miles of motorway on 2 new roads when it might be possible to build only 35 miles of motorway and facilitate all traffic whilst saving hundreds of millions? I might be way off the mark, but surely it is worth consideration

    Some of the additional facts worth taking into consideration are:

    It is shorter to go to limerick from Cork via Mitchelstown.
    It would be about 8 miles longer for traffic going from Cahir to Limerick if there was a motorway from junction 12 on the M8 near Kilbeheny.
    This motorway can be tunnelled under the Galtee mountains.
    The cork traffic would bypass Mitchelstown at junction 13 and all traffic could meet at the Ballylanders side and a 30 mile motorway would bring them straight to the tunnel in limerick.
    Also, if they ever built the northern bypass they are talking about in Cork this would enable all Cork traffic to go straight onto the motorway network.
    This would take a big percentage of traffic out of cork , it would also solve the traffic problems in Tipperary town.

    It doesn't matter how many user names you register. The proposal would still be more expensive than building an M20 between Cork and Limerick.


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    #1805
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter how many user names you register. The proposal would still be more expensive than building an M20 between Cork and Limerick.

    +1. Building from Mitchelstown to Limerick would be very expensive, going from the N24 would be much further distance wise than the existing road. Anyway even if these were possible (and a lot cheaper than the current prices) it still wouldn't change the fact that Mallow-Cork is totally under capacity and Buttevant and Charleville would still need to be bypassed - a lot of the traffic on that road is fairly local.


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    #1806
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Here's an idea. Upgrade the M7 M8 junction to cover all movements and change the road signs. That'd be the cheapest option yet.


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    #1807
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,267 ✭✭✭source


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Here's an idea. Upgrade the M7 M8 junction to cover all movements and change the road signs. That'd be the cheapest option yet.

    Ah yeah, nothing like driving over an hour on the wrong direction to get where you want to go.

    Best option is to just bloody well build the thing already and be done with it instead of wasting money fixing up a road that is wholly unsuitable.


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    #1808
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter how many user names you register. The proposal would still be more expensive than building an M20 between Cork and Limerick.

    Which proposal would give the better long term return to the country? I'd imagine a motorway to Cahir probably would as you'd effectively be connecting Limerick Waterford as well as Limerick and Cork.


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    #1809
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    zulutango wrote: »
    Which proposal would give the better long term return to the country? I'd imagine a motorway to Cahir probably would as you'd effectively be connecting Limerick Waterford as well as Limerick and Cork.

    I'd like to know the cost of additional fuel burned. In addition, this would benefit anyone on the Cork Limerick corridor which would make up a large percentage of user rather than just point to point user's

    It would surely add 30 minutes to the journey.


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    #1810
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    There was never a proposal to build a motorway between Limerick and Waterford. only thing that was proposed was a realigned N24.


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    #1811
    thevinylword
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭thevinylword


    Absolutely bonkers that this road has never been built. Main road via Charleville etc. is a boidhrin, jokeshop


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    #1812
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    I'd like to know the cost of additional fuel burned. In addition, this would benefit anyone on the Cork Limerick corridor which would make up a large percentage of user rather than just point to point user's

    It would surely add 30 minutes to the journey.

    Would it really be that much further?

    I accept that people on the Cork - Limerick corridor wouldn't benefit, but the motorway is bigger than them to be fair.


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    #1813
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Here's an idea. Upgrade the M7 M8 junction to cover all movements and change the road signs. That'd be the cheapest option yet.


    Tongue firmly in cheek I suspect? :)


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    #1814
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    zulutango wrote: »
    Which proposal would give the better long term return to the country? I'd imagine a motorway to Cahir probably would as you'd effectively be connecting Limerick Waterford as well as Limerick and Cork.

    The motorway between Waterford and Dublin is a tumbleweed collector at the best of times, I doubt there's any call for a Limerick-Waterford motorway.


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    #1815
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    zulutango wrote: »
    I accept that people on the Cork - Limerick corridor wouldn't benefit, but the motorway is bigger than them to be fair.

    However, a couple of towns there still have to be bypassed so you're suggesting a motorway project and a set of bypass projects. I'm not entirely sure this would be cheaper than the M20.


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    #1816
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The motorway between Waterford and Dublin is a tumbleweed collector at the best of times.

    Rubbish. Its got higher traffic levels than the middle sections of the M8! We all wanted it to fail, but its actually doing rather well for itself.


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    #1817
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Rubbish. Its got higher traffic levels than the middle sections of the M8! We all wanted it to fail, but its actually doing rather well for itself.

    But there's a v noticeable difference once you go southbound from M7 after Naas


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    #1818
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The M7 north of J11 (M9) is effectively M7 (M8-M9), the M9 after Naas is just M9 traffic


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    #1819
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    D Trent wrote: »
    But there's a v noticeable difference once you go southbound from M7 after Naas

    And you can say the same for the M8 south of This junction.

    People have a serious bee in their bonnet about this motorway. Unlike most things in this country, it was done right on day 1 and will prob just need maintenance for the next 50 years.


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    #1820
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Calina wrote: »
    However, a couple of towns there still have to be bypassed so you're suggesting a motorway project and a set of bypass projects. I'm not entirely sure this would be cheaper than the M20.

    Taking the long term economic view and the benefits of building either motorway (including the various bypasses and national route upgrades), the capital cost of either pales into insignificance surely.


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    #1821
    tippsean
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭tippsean


    touts wrote: »
    It's been proposed and as someone who travels those roads quite a bit I'd think that would be a pretty good solution. HOWEVER every gombeen local Councilor and TD has convinced the people of the various towns and villages along the N20 and N24 that they deserve a motorway running near their home, just not too near that they could see or hear it but in that sweet spot that boosts their house value. So now if a compromise is suggested thousands of angry locals will protest the issue. So in reality neither route will get upgraded because its a political minefield.

    It surely is!


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    #1822
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    Anyone know what works the NRA are doing on the current N20 2&1 section? - just resurfacing I wonder?


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    #1823
    tippsean
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭tippsean


    touts wrote: »
    It's been proposed and as someone who travels those roads quite a bit I'd think that would be a pretty good solution. HOWEVER every gombeen local Councilor and TD has convinced the people of the various towns and villages along the N20 and N24 that they deserve a motorway running near their home, just not too near that they could see or hear it but in that sweet spot that boosts their house value. So now if a compromise is suggested thousands of angry locals will protest the issue. So in reality neither route will get upgraded because its a political minefield.

    There are a lot more advantages to building just one motorway, not 2!. The biggest advantage is the PPP possibilities. This means that a toll could pay for this 30 mile length of motorway instead of 95 miles. Plus all the traffic from East Cork and West Cork and West Waterford, which now goes through Cork City, would come up the M8. If the Northern Bypass was ever built, it would take all the Limerick Bound traffic from Cork...out of the city. Plus, if they dug a tunnel under the Galtee mountains they would get enough stone to build half the motorway. Plus it would promote the Galtee mountains, the Glen of Aherlow and the Ballyhoura mountains. Anyone that would wish to visit them could reach them in half the time currently required. In addition, in time, Mallow could be connected onto this motorway. It could also over time provide an alternative route from Limerick to Killarney.


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    #1824
    tippsean
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭tippsean


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    I'd like to know the cost of additional fuel burned. In addition, this would benefit anyone on the Cork Limerick corridor which would make up a large percentage of user rather than just point to point user's

    It would surely add 30 minutes to the journey.

    It wouldn't take an additional 30 minutes. It would take 8 minutes maximum, longer of motorway driving (100-120kmph) to cover 14km further.


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    #1825
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    tippsean wrote: »
    There are a lot more advantages to building just one motorway, not 2!. The biggest advantage is the PPP possibilities. This means that a toll could pay for this 30 mile length of motorway instead of 95 miles. Plus all the traffic from East Cork and West Cork and West Waterford, which now goes through Cork City, would come up the M8. If the Northern Bypass was ever built, it would take all the Limerick Bound traffic from Cork...out of the city. Plus, if they dug a tunnel under the Galtee mountains they would get enough stone to build half the motorway. Plus it would promote the Galtee mountains, the Glen of Aherlow and the Ballyhoura mountains. Anyone that would wish to visit them could reach them in half the time currently required. In addition, in time, Mallow could be connected onto this motorway. It could also over time provide an alternative route from Limerick to Killarney.

    How much would a tunnel under the Galtees cost ? Likely to be environmentally problematic as well as financially unviable.


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    #1826
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Not having looked closely at the route, how necessary is the tunnel through the Galtees, and how long would that tunnel be?

    I think your points are very good. Do you know if this route was looked at during the planning stage and if it was, do you know why it wasn't the favoured route?

    We seem to have a habit in Ireland of building motorways along existing routes. It's as if we see them as upgrades of these old roads, when in reality they should be so much more than that.


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    #1827
    tippsean
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭tippsean


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    How much would a tunnel under the Galtees cost ? Likely to be environmentally problematic as well as financially unviable.

    The reason I'm suggesting tunneling is because they have been used all over Europe without any negative effect on the environment. The tunnel didn't affect the river Lee when they went under it, or did it affect the river Shannon?

    Tunnels have proven financially viable for a couple of reasons, 1) The rock that can be used in the construction itself and 2) the motorway distance saved by going under the mountains 3) the promotion of mountainous tourist areas by bringing traffic through the areas brings financial benefits.

    Another big advantage of this is that the NRA maintenance depot is already located in the region, saving millions.

    90km of additional unnecessary motorway for an M20 will cost a huge number of millions to build and maintain.


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    #1828
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    This doesn't change the fact that you're still going to need to bypass Mallow properly, plus Buttevant and Charleville. Even beyond Charleville the road is dire until you get to the Croom bypass. When you add all of these together plus building a link from Mitchelstown to Limerick the costs will be higher than just doing it properly and building the M20.


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    #1829
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Can a new thread be setup for M20 alternatives?.


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    #1830
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    captainspeed wrote: »
    This doesn't change the fact that you're still going to need to bypass Mallow properly, plus Buttevant and Charleville. Even beyond Charleville the road is dire until you get to the Croom bypass. When you add all of these together plus building a link from Mitchelstown to Limerick the costs will be higher than just doing it properly and building the M20.

    There's cost and there's value. The value to Munster and Ireland of Tippsean's suggestion could be far greater than the value of a motorway along the existing Cork - Limerick road.


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    #1831
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Tunnelling is feasible in other countries where it is linking huge populations within or between countries with much higher populations than ours. Tunnelling through the Alps is viable because the route is a major continental crossroads. A tunnel between Cork to Limerick cant be compared to a tunnel which may seem like the middle of nowhere but is on a route linking Italy to France. Also, the cost of tunnelling on the continent has to be weighed up against the cost of going over some serious mountain ranges and it is the cheaper option, the cost of tunnelling this would not compare favourably to the existing M20 plan. The alternative here is a route through favourable terrain, a good chunk of which is an online upgrade, not going over a formidable mountain range. And as for mountainous tourism, anyone interested in that doesn’t even consider what we have here to be mountains.

    We struggle to fund a 7.5km tunnel in the most densely populated part of the country, we are not going to be building longer tunnels in rural areas.


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