Male on Male Rape

Blisterman · 18-07-2011 12:42pm #1

There was a thread in After Hours, but I think we could have a more mature discussion here.

This is an article from the Guardian about male on male rape in Africa, and how victims are ostracised as a result.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

Even in Ireland, it's a pretty taboo subject. I think, unfortunately a lot of people would look on a man who had been raped as not being a "real man".

I think if I was in that position, I'd find it difficult to come forward and admit it.

krudler · 18-07-2011 12:55pm

Pretty distubing article alright, its pretty fcuked up how a family is willing to just walk away from a father/husband who has been raped

iptba · 18-07-2011 2:32pm

The Wikipedia article on Masculism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism has the following on a particular type of male on male rape:

Societal failure to address prison rape, including issues such as prevention (e.g., reducing prison crowding that requires sharing of cells), impunity for prison rapists, and even correctional staff punishing prisoners by confining them with known rapists.[10] Prison rape is often used as a subject of humor in films such as Let's Go to Prison.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 18-07-2011 2:54pm

krudler wrote: »

Pretty distubing article alright, its pretty fcuked up how a family is willing to just walk away from a father/husband who has been raped

Its probably more an economic than individual views thing. If they fear the entire village turn against them its probably the wisest decision to be made.

This is remember the same continent where toddlers are abandoned if the community suspect they might be a witch

ordinary_girl · 18-07-2011 5:05pm

I remember when I was in school I was getting the bus home with one of the girls from my class and, I'm not entirely sure how it came up in discussion, but I said "you know men can be raped too." She laughed her head off, said I was a dope and that that kind of thing just doesn't happened. She was laughing so much she had tears running down her face. When you've got people as ignorant and childish as she is then I can understand why some men would be heistant about admitting that they'd been raped.

helimachoptor · 18-07-2011 8:30pm

Quite surreal read.
My aunty married Zambian man, they moved from the UK to Zambia 32 years ago. She passed away about 15 years ago and their daughter (my cousin) moved back here.

He comes to visit regularly and tbh some of the stories he told me would make your eyes water. Unfortunately most of Africa is a complete s**thole and i cant see it getting any better.

I mean 3 times a day for 3 years. I know it says he tried to kill himself and if no one is talking to him i'm surprised he's still alive.

BigDuffman · 19-07-2011 12:19pm

Jesus, thats nasty. I always wonder the mentality (and sexuality) of the aggressors behind these rapes. What turns these groups of assumedly hetrosexual men to homosexual rape of such frequency and volume. Read this next line closely and note quotation marks I DO NOT CONDONE OR IN ANYWAY EXCUSE RAPE OF FEMALES, but from the point of view of "normal" sexual desires a man raping a woman can be "understood" at a base level. At what point does the urge for a "straight" man to sodomize another man become acceptable as part of the herd mentality?

I'd imagine that at some sick level the thrill is from degrading a human being to the lowest level in the case of African attrocities.

Is this a cultural thing, as male on male rape seems prevailent in south American and African countries as a means of degradation. Even in American prisons (which obviously have an influence from both of the aforementioned countries). But I know a few prison guards and have asked them does this take place in Irish prisons? The response was that it is rarer than it is common.

I reckon its down to the fact that our prison system rarely has someone behind bars for more than 7 years coupled with Irish taboos.

MagicMarker · 19-07-2011 12:31pm

BigDuffman wrote: »

Jesus, thats nasty. I always wonder the mentality (and sexuality) of the aggressors behind these rapes. What turns these groups of assumedly hetrosexual men to homosexual rape of such frequency and volume. Read this next line closely and note quotation marks I DO NOT CONDONE OR IN ANYWAY EXCUSE RAPE OF FEMALES, but from the point of view of "normal" sexual desires a man raping a woman can be "understood" at a base level. At what point does the urge for a "straight" man to sodomize another man become acceptable as part of the herd mentality?

I'd imagine that at some sick level the thrill is from degrading a human being to the lowest level in the case of African attrocities.

Is this a cultural thing, as male on male rape seems prevailent in south American and African countries as a means of degradation. Even in American prisons (which obviously have an influence from both of the aforementioned countries). But I know a few prison guards and have asked them does this take place in Irish prisons? The response was that it is rarer than it is common.

I reckon its down to the fact that our prison system rarely has someone behind bars for more than 7 years coupled with Irish taboos.

OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU CONDONE AND EXCUSE THE RAPE OF FEMALES!!!!

BigDuffman · 19-07-2011 12:44pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU CONDONE AND EXCUSE THE RAPE OF FEMALES!!!!

I'm actually waiting on someone to try argue that point with me.

Handsome Bob · 19-07-2011 2:13pm

I think it's an exercise in dominance and power, I can think of few other devastating ways to break a male's spirit than to be raped by another male.

Fox McCloud · 19-07-2011 7:48pm

I think the link between sexuality and rape that people made in AH and here is interesting. I think the clear widespread nature of male on male rape could finally disprove the myth that rape is the result an extreme version of normal lust a guy or girl feels for someone. I think alot of victim blaming and acceptance for certain types of rape come from a misunderstanding about the motivation rapists have. Maybe because the average person cant imagine wanting to/getting off on degrading and destroying someone in a sadistic way but they can imagine lust.

The fact that male on male rape in commited by soilders who are most likely not all gay and are clearly doing it to torture, abuse and exert their 'masculinity' stength and power in the extremly insecure and crazy enviornment of war shows how much power rather than lust comes into it.

Starokan · 19-07-2011 9:54pm

In ancient times male rape was considered the right of the victorious soldier against a defeated enemy. I think the romans were the first to try and outlaw this practice towards the end of the roman empire but initially in earlier roman times gang raping a male was considered the ultimate punishment.

Sodomy of a prisoner was prevalent throughout many of the earlier civilisations. Its still very much a factor in our times except the majority of male rape is confined to prisons where due to the lower status the majority of us assign to "prisoners" it virtually is ignored.

The purpose is to break a man completely, its seen as the ultimate humilation/torture.

As LZ5by5 said earlier its an exercise in domination and power. I would suspect this is the root cause of all rape if you were to dwell deep enough into the psyche of a rapist.

Africa is still a long way behind the western world and much of what we abhor as heinous crimes are unfortunately still commonplace.

Stargazer7 · 20-07-2011 12:06am

BigDuffman wrote: »

Jesus, thats nasty. I always wonder the mentality (and sexuality) of the aggressors behind these rapes. What turns these groups of assumedly hetrosexual men to homosexual rape of such frequency and volume. Read this next line closely and note quotation marks I DO NOT CONDONE OR IN ANYWAY EXCUSE RAPE OF FEMALES, but from the point of view of "normal" sexual desires a man raping a woman can be "understood" at a base level. At what point does the urge for a "straight" man to sodomize another man become acceptable as part of the herd mentality?

I'd imagine that at some sick level the thrill is from degrading a human being to the lowest level in the case of African attrocities.

Is this a cultural thing, as male on male rape seems prevailent in south American and African countries as a means of degradation. Even in American prisons (which obviously have an influence from both of the aforementioned countries). But I know a few prison guards and have asked them does this take place in Irish prisons? The response was that it is rarer than it is common.

I reckon its down to the fact that our prison system rarely has someone behind bars for more than 7 years coupled with Irish taboos.

Don't worry, I don't think in any way you're condone heterosexual rape of women but I'd beg to differ on "understanding it on a base level". I mean if you take homosexuality as something acceptable and normal then you could equally say that you "understood male on male rape at a base level".

Apologies if I seem to nit pick but it's just an observation and I don't mean to derail the thread.

I was in shock reading that piece in the guardian....I suppose no matter what country you're in or what gender you are, rape is an act of trying to take power away from someone, to break them. I wish the stigma was removed from it, particularly for men as it is difficult enough for women without the added pressure of being "macho". In the same way domestic violence against men needs to be highlighted and addressed. While "weakness" and some loss of masculinity is associated with some horrible acts, men are fighting a losing battle to be heard and cared for.

LeeHoffmann · 20-07-2011 9:35am

Thanks for that stargazer - I wanted to say much of what you said but was also afraid of derailing the thread. I never understand why so many people think rape has something to do with lust. It seems so clear to me that it's about de-humanising, degrading and humiliating a person in order to, as LZ5by5 put it, break their spirit. (Regardless of the gender of the perpetrator and victim).

I think most people are shocked by how widespread male rape seems to be in that area. It's despicable that they're being turned away from aid organisations as only women are welcome. The article makes a link between the fight for women's rights and the treatment of male victims of rape...they're afraid that if they admit that men are raped on a widespread basis that that will draw attention away from campaigns for women's rights. If anything, I would have thought that discussing rape in global terms - as something that affects both genders and all sectors of society - would only have positive consequences and unite the genders against a common enemy, while reducing the stigma and enabling all people to access medical aid and counselling. Is that incredibly naive of me?

Maybe that's a very rich privileged western way of looking at this.

LeeHoffmann · 20-07-2011 9:35am

I've also been following the AH thread on this - there are some good posts. I'm going to quote this as as I think it's particularly relevant to this forum and thread

A very disturbing and upsetting article and even though the OP was posting for different reasons I thank them as I did not know how prevalent it was in the world.

But now that I think of it, I had an idea. I think we all did. think of the armies all over the world where mostly men are taught to be the powerful and domineering ones over their enemies. And rape is one way to be powerful and domineering over enemies. Because we can give out about whos the one at fault here, what I want to know is how to stop it.

I think it needs to be confronted on two issues. One is war and the
other is community/society.

Like I already says, armies teach men and women to be more powerful, stronger and domineering. Personally I feel all war/armies are not right and should be scaled down. But I honestly think the only way to stop people doing this to men and women is to have rape as a serious sentence especially during war times as it is using a weapon on a community not just a person ( I do not mean to belittle the hurt experienced by victims).

The second issue is society and communities. Mens position as the protector, the provider, the strong one needs to be scaled down so that women can understand that they are also vulnerable. Womens position need to come up more so that they are stronger, the provider the protector, so hopefully they come to an equal position. In western society I think the latter has happened but the former hasnt. I think men need to fighht for their right to be vulnerable, to not be the provider but the carer as they are both as important to society. In society I find issues get better when there are more people talking openly about the issue at hand and there are organisations to help the issues.

BigDuffman · 20-07-2011 10:36am

Stargazer7 wrote: »

Don't worry, I don't think in any way you're condone heterosexual rape of women but I'd beg to differ on "understanding it on a base level". I mean if you take homosexuality as something acceptable and normal then you could equally say that you "understood male on male rape at a base level".

You are misreading my post. The key line being assumedly hetrosexual.

BigDuffman wrote: »

What turns these groups of assumedly hetrosexual men to homosexualy rape......but from the point of view of "normal" sexual desires a man raping a woman can be "understood" at a base level. At what point does the urge for a "straight" man to sodomize another man become acceptable as part of the herd mentality?

I'd imagine that at some sick level the thrill is from degrading a human being to the lowest level in the case of African attrocities.

There never was a question of "normal" applying to sexual preference. As it is normal for a gay man to fancy another man as much as it is normal for a straight man to fancy a woman. Reverse the situation and have homosexual men raping hetrosexual for same effect and query. My point was relating to the fact that assumedly hetrosexual men in a "macho" environment reverted to homosexual rape.

As previous posters have mentioned I think its hard to understand the mentality of a rapist as it is something beyond lust.

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Like I already says, armies teach men and women to be more powerful, stronger and domineering. Personally I feel all war/armies are not right and should be scaled down. But I honestly think the only way to stop people doing this to men and women is to have rape as a serious sentence especially during war times as it is using a weapon on a community not just a person ( I do not mean to belittle the hurt experienced by victims).

That is reminiscent of that disgusting article from feminist "journo" Germaine Greer.

I'm diverging slightly from original topic of male on male rape.

Not attacking poster here either but I disagree with this entirely and the point of "war is not right"as it is a moot one..as it's fairly obvious that war is not right.

Military training also teaches discipline and restraint. It does indeed teach one to be more assertive and powerful but that is not necessarily a bad thing. To say that armies / soldiers are to blame is a sweeping statement, for example compare a Congalese militia to our own Defence Forces (who are recognised all through out the world for their humanitarian and peace enforcement work) and they are not one and the same.

Martial arts, rugby and countless other sports concentrate on promoting the same esprit de corps, aggression and leadership. But you don't see MMA clubs going out on rampages.

As most normal people cannot even begin to fathom rape, it is safe to say that a rapist will be a rapist irregarless of colour creed or profession. The only difference is the opportunity. A scrawny pencil necked accountant (with the desire to rape) in his day to day life will not get the opportunity to live out this fantasy, give him a gun and put him in a warzone and the opportunity is different.

Stargazer7 · 21-07-2011 12:05am

BigDuffman wrote: »

You are misreading my post. The key line being assumedly hetrosexual.

There never was a question of "normal" applying to sexual preference. As it is normal for a gay man to fancy another man as much as it is normal for a straight man to fancy a woman. Reverse the situation and have homosexual men raping hetrosexual for same effect and query. My point was relating to the fact that assumedly hetrosexual men in a "macho" environment reverted to homosexual rape.

As previous posters have mentioned I think its hard to understand the mentality of a rapist as it is something beyond lust.

That is reminiscent of that disgusting article from feminist "journo" Germaine Greer.

I'm diverging slightly from original topic of male on male rape.

Not attacking poster here either but I disagree with this entirely and the point of "war is not right"as it is a moot one..as it's fairly obvious that war is not right.

Military training also teaches discipline and restraint. It does indeed teach one to be more assertive and powerful but that is not necessarily a bad thing. To say that armies / soldiers are to blame is a sweeping statement, for example compare a Congalese militia to our own Defence Forces (who are recognised all through out the world for their humanitarian and peace enforcement work) and they are not one and the same.

Martial arts, rugby and countless other sports concentrate on promoting the same esprit de corps, aggression and leadership. But you don't see MMA clubs going out on rampages.

As most normal people cannot even begin to fathom rape, it is safe to say that a rapist will be a rapist irregarless of colour creed or profession. The only difference is the opportunity. A scrawny pencil necked accountant (with the desire to rape) in his day to day life will not get the opportunity to live out this fantasy, give him a gun and put him in a warzone and the opportunity is different.

Apologies on misreading your post, your observation was on the button. I agree with you on all of the other points in the above post.

I have no understanding of war/military conflicts so I think there is an added complex element to the cases in the guardian. From the way war is depicted in the media it always seems like a pressure cooker situation where people are pushed to their limits and become desensitized in order to survive. Not that that's an excuse for barbaric acts. I just think that a lot of us (myself included) are capable of worse that we would imagine when put into certain situations.

pragmatic1 · 21-07-2011 5:26am

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I think it's an exercise in dominance and power, I can think of few other devastating ways to break a male's spirit than to be raped by another male.

I think its a bit of that and the fact that there are no females around to rape.

Maple · 21-07-2011 1:48pm

Blisterman wrote: »

Even in Ireland, it's a pretty taboo subject. I think, unfortunately a lot of people would look on a man who had been raped as not being a "real man".

I volunteered with the Dublin Rape Crisis centre some years back, the above statement is something I heard from a lot of the men I spoke with. They felt less of a man because they felt that they should have been able to stop it, they should have been able to fight back, that they had lost their masculinity and identity as a man because a man "should" be strong and able to protect himself.

They were afraid of being labelled gay or have people whisper that they had actually enjoyed it.

Rape is about power and dominance over another person. It is one of the most fracturing and damaging things that can happen a person.

Master and commander · 03-08-2011 10:55am

A friend of a frind was raped by a guy. He was walking home drunk from the local in his village and was raped in the ass by some other guy. We were all laughing at it when we heard. When my friend told me about it he was laughing at him saying they he got rode by another fella on the way home from the pub and saying he was a sissy boy.

Its just not taken seriously by anyone, especially in the countryside its just a big laugh.

MagicMarker · 03-08-2011 12:56pm

Master and commander wrote: »

A friend of a frind was raped by a guy. He was walking home drunk from the local in his village and was raped in the ass by some other guy. We were all laughing at it when we heard. When my friend told me about it he was laughing at him saying they he got rode by another fella on the way home from the pub and saying he was a sissy boy.

Its just not taken seriously by anyone, especially in the countryside its just a big laugh.

Would you ever fúck off.

Kadongy · 03-08-2011 1:04pm

Blisterman wrote: »

There was a thread in After Hours, but I think we could have a more mature discussion here.

This is an article from the Guardian about male on male rape in Africa, and how victims are ostracised as a result.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

Even in Ireland, it's a pretty taboo subject. I think, unfortunately a lot of people would look on a man who had been raped as not being a "real man".

I think if I was in that position, I'd find it difficult to come forward and admit it.

No I dont think so. There was a group of men who were gang raping men around O'Connell St in Dublin at night a few years ago. I knew a guy who was a victim of this. Nobody had any sort of derogratory atttude towards him for it. Everybody was horrified and sympathetic, including his employers and his girlfriend.

The only thing I found surprising was how well and quickly he seemed to recover from it. I saw him a week or two after it happened and it was obvious that something horrible had happened him, because he was extremely pale, moved awkwardly, and because of his demeanour and boy language. However a few weeks after that he seemed positive and normal again. Though I am only talking about how he appeared at a superficial level, since I didn't know him well enough to be aware of anything deeper.

LeeHoffmann · 03-08-2011 1:20pm

That is reminiscent of that disgusting article from feminist "journo" Germaine Greer. I'm diverging slightly from original topic of male on male rape. Not attacking poster here either but I disagree with this entirely and the point of "war is not right"as it is a moot one..as it's fairly obvious that war is not right.

I'm not the OP but I don't think the point was as simple as 'war is not right' :rolleyes:

Military training also teaches discipline and restraint. It does indeed teach one to be more assertive and powerful but that is not necessarily a bad thing. To say that armies / soldiers are to blame is a sweeping statement, for example compare a Congalese militia to our own Defence Forces (who are recognised all through out the world for their humanitarian and peace enforcement work) and they are not one and the same.

I understand that you're saying there are positive aspects to being in the army and miltary training. It's a fair point. I think the OP had a point though that atrocities are so often committed by armies as a weapon during war. I don't think the point was that armies are always gonna rape etc. You're building a strawman of her argument there I think

Count Duckula · 03-08-2011 1:30pm

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I'm not the OP but I don't think the point was as simple as 'war is not right' :rolleyes:

I understand that you're saying there are positive aspects to being in the army and miltary training. It's a fair point. I think the OP had a point though that atrocities are so often committed by armies as a weapon during war. I don't think the point was that armies are always gonna rape etc. You're building a strawman of her argument there I think

In fairness, in the article by Germaine Greer that he's referencing she does say that all soldiers will rape.

Otis Driftwood · 03-08-2011 2:15pm

Master and commander wrote: »

A friend of a frind was raped by a guy. He was walking home drunk from the local in his village and was raped in the ass by some other guy. We were all laughing at it when we heard. When my friend told me about it he was laughing at him saying they he got rode by another fella on the way home from the pub and saying he was a sissy boy.
Its just not taken seriously by anyone, especially in the countryside its just a big laugh.

If you dont have anything to add to this forum other than BS stories then dont bother posting here.Everyone else,if you have a problem with a post report it.

LeeHoffmann · 03-08-2011 3:20pm

In fairness, in the article by Germaine Greer that he's referencing she does say that all soldiers will rape.

ok sorry. tbh i didn't read the article as there were too many posts on the AH thread. It was the comments of the poster (not the author of the article) that interested me.

BigDuffman · 03-08-2011 8:06pm

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I'm not the OP but I don't think the point was as simple as 'war is not right' :rolleyes:

You're building a strawman of her argument there I think

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

ok sorry. tbh i didn't read the article as there were too many posts on the AH thread. It was the comments of the poster (not the author of the article) that interested me.

Then why make above comment on based on speculation from AH posters

particularly if you did not bother to read the article the two times it was referenced?

LegacyUser · 03-08-2011 8:23pm

lots of posts are saying that the act is about domination as opposed to sexual gratification. but how does one achieve an erection sufficient for penetrating another man based on nothing but feelings of domination? does the act of overpowering or dominating another man cause some men to have full on erections based on something other than sexual urges?

LeeHoffmann · 03-08-2011 10:19pm

as I said - I was interested in the poster's comments not whatever article she? referenced. My comments above related to the post not the article

Scarinae · 06-08-2011 1:41am

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I think its a bit of that and the fact that there are no females around to rape.

Not necessarily. In the article that was linked to in the original post, the first guy to tell his story says that there were women in the group but it was the men who were targeted: "While the women were sent off to prepare food and coffee, 12 armed fighters surrounded the men." In this case, and in many others, it was to humiliate, punish and exert power.

daenerysstormborn3 · 06-08-2011 1:55am

confusedbythis wrote: »

lots of posts are saying that the act is about domination as opposed to sexual gratification. but how does one achieve an erection sufficient for penetrating another man based on nothing but feelings of domination? does the act of overpowering or dominating another man cause some men to have full on erections based on something other than sexual urges?

Rape is about violence, it's about degradation, it's about terrifying somebody. I'm assuming a rapist maintains an erection while their victim is screaming at them and fighting them because they enjoy the power and they enjoy the struggle and it's part of the enjoyment for them.

Male on Male Rape

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