* Proposed New Junior Cert. Read Mod Warning Post #1 Before Posting**

gaiscioch · 01-04-2015 9:37pm

Anybody read the Department of Education's man in The Irish Times, Joe Humphreys, in The Irish Times today? It was titled "Teachers say further strike would be legal". The following snide little assault on the legitimacy of teachers' opposition was straight from the Pravda school of ethical journalism:

"Questions have been raised as to whether another strike would be illegal, given the ballot for industrial action was over proposals put forward 18 months ago by former minister Ruairí Quinn which have now been significantly revised."

Discuss!

gaiscioch · 01-04-2015 10:32pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

If you think the new JC is a good idea and feel it will be well resourced vote Yes

Just to add, even if it were a good idea - and I'd be quite open to having 2nd years partake in a "major" assessment if only because it could reduce discipline issues which most (all?) schools have with 2nd years - the problem for me is: where is this going. Looking back on the past 6 years, I see a collapse in working conditions. It was all done so incrementally that I cannot honestly say I saw it coming in 2009. Just cutbacks - not a rewriting of the entire conditions of my employment.

Now, in our seventh successive year of cutbacks and having a more lucid awareness of the magnitude of that decline and, vitally, the fundamental change in teaching culture that has been imposed on us via this move towards an English-style, bureaucracy-smothered, paper-filling, insurance-motivated, low-cost teaching culture, I am not voting for any more decline because there is a "moratorium" on everything except the continuing decline in our working conditions. Smaller classes? More SNAs? an end to pointless after school meetings?... Where is the actual "deal" here? We give, they take. Having just spent weeks organising orals and facilitating project work, nobody should underestimate how much pressure these proposals will add to our existing stress. Or the exponential rise in bullshít paperwork which has zero to do with educating kids, and more to do with Department officials being able to tick off boxes.

They've given up even promising this will be the last change. Irish teachers only need to look at the position of English teachers - especially the enormous stress-related mental health issues - to see what awaits them if they allow this decline to continue. It's not, after all, as if the English system became yellow pack overnight. It, too, was gradual.

katydid · 01-04-2015 10:38pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Just to add, even if it were a good idea - and I'd be quite open to having 2nd years partake in a "major" assessment if only because it could reduce discipline issues which most (all?) schools have with 2nd years - the problem for me is: where is this going. Looking back on the past 6 years, I see a collapse in working conditions. It was all done so incrementally that I cannot honestly say I saw it coming in 2009. Just cutbacks - not a rewriting of the entire conditions of my employment.

Now, in our seventh successive year of cutbacks and having a more lucid awareness of the magnitude of that decline and, vitally, the fundamental change in teaching culture that has been imposed on us via this move towards an English-style, bureaucracy-smothered, paper-filling, insurance-motivated, low-cost teaching culture, I am not voting for any more decline because there is a "moratorium" on everything except the continuing decline in our working conditions. Smaller classes? More SNAs? an end to pointless after school meetings?... Where is the actual "deal" here? We give, they take. Having just spent weeks organising orals and facilitating project work, nobody should underestimate how much pressure these proposals will add to our existing stress. Or the exponential rise in bullshít paperwork which has zero to do with educating kids, and more to do with Department officials being able to tick off boxes.

They've given up even promising this will be the last change. Irish teachers only need to look at the position of English teachers - especially the enormous stress-related mental health issues - to see what awaits them if they allow this decline to continue. It's not, after all, as if the English system became yellow pack overnight. It, too, was gradual.

I agree with all of that, but the important thing to remember is that while opposing the present proposals is essential, it's not necessarily a good idea to oppose CA per se, which seems to be the default position.

Properly resourced and planned, it doesn't have to turn into a UK style system. The UK is not the only country that operates CA, and we don't have to follow it slavishly. It can work and it does work.

petejmk · 01-04-2015 11:23pm

May be dismissed in relation to points raised but thought it interesting with regard to teaching in the UK and the pressure being exerted:
Almost four out of 10 teachers quit within a year of qualifying, with 11,000 leaving the profession before they have really begun their career and record numbers of those who remain giving up mid-career, according to analysis of government figures.

The exodus of new recruits has almost tripled in six years, resulting in a crisis in teacher supply in a profession that has become “incompatible with normal life”, according to Mary Bousted, the general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers.

Denouncing the government’s record on schools, she said the education system was “being run on a wing and a prayer”, with teachers exhausted, stressed and burnt out in a profession that was being “monitored to within an inch of its life”.

I can't post the link but available via The Guardian website.

deiseindublin · 01-04-2015 11:31pm

2 ASTI Fightback members voted onto ASTI exec, has to be progress to have a balance with some more militant members.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/megaphone-man-elected-to-asti-standing-committee-1.2160652

Silverbling · 01-04-2015 11:50pm

I am a parent and my best friend is a teacher, my son is TY and goes to a very good school, last year he was struggling with honour's maths so had extra help at lunchtime and after school.

My friend was spending most weekends in school then needed my help as her printer was broken, it took us 2 full days to correct (her) and print (me) 32 projects, i think they are called LCA or LCVP?

Until then I did not connect my sons extra tuition and the impact it had on a teachers life, maybe you need to educate the parents as to why you are going on strike, watching the news is not the same as a fact based real life situation that will affect not just the kids now but our younger ones.

Maybe as parents we take it for granted that teachers "teach" without seeing the effects

gaiscioch · 02-04-2015 12:28am

katydid wrote: »

I agree with all of that, but the important thing to remember is that while opposing the present proposals is essential, it's not necessarily a good idea to oppose CA per se, which seems to be the default position.

Properly resourced and planned, it doesn't have to turn into a UK style system. The UK is not the only country that operates CA, and we don't have to follow it slavishly. It can work and it does work.

You are correct in that it's not a good idea to oppose Continuous Assessment as such, and I don't think anybody is. I think it could be very good particularly for the many kids who don't do justice to themselves in exams. The problem is, first, the context of 7 years of continuous decline in teachers' conditions and, second, that CA is being introduced as a money-saving initiative (rather than as an advance in education) and as a result the CA model being used by necessity is England's low-cost, Tory-created school system.

If the people in the Department of Education were seriously doing this primarily for educational reasons, then almost any other school system in western Europe would be a better example for Irish schools than England's system. We all know this. What the DoES is doing is simply trying to create a carbon copy of the low-cost yellow pack English system and then trying to pretend it is doing this because it actually cares about improving the education of Irish kids.

evolving_doors · 02-04-2015 12:29am

katydid wrote: »

I agree with all of that, but the important thing to remember is that while opposing the present proposals is essential, it's not necessarily a good idea to oppose CA per se, which seems to be the default position.

Properly resourced and planned, it doesn't have to turn into a UK style system. The UK is not the only country that operates CA, and we don't have to follow it slavishly. It can work and it does work.

I think that is the thing oft forgotten.... teachers have 'continuously assessed' since Pythagorus was scratching in the sand. Now we have idiots peering over our shoulders with clipboards telling us how to continuously assess.

Teaching IS continuously assessing. Making it a box ticking exercise is just killing off any professional autonomy. The richness of this diversity (and our disparate subject backgrounds) is important, and should not be killed off.

evolving_doors · 02-04-2015 12:31am

deiseindublin wrote: »

2 ASTI Fightback members voted onto ASTI exec, has to be progress to have a balance with some more militant members.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/megaphone-man-elected-to-asti-standing-committee-1.2160652

Liked the last comment...

Mr Phelan said he had been concerned at “suggestions” within the ASTI that members would be asked to ballot on Ms O’Sullivan’s revised plan. He was opposed to “wearing people down with ballots”.

rainbowtrout · 02-04-2015 12:45am

petejmk wrote: »

May be dismissed in relation to points raised but thought it interesting with regard to teaching in the UK and the pressure being exerted:
Almost four out of 10 teachers quit within a year of qualifying, with 11,000 leaving the profession before they have really begun their career and record numbers of those who remain giving up mid-career, according to analysis of government figures.

The exodus of new recruits has almost tripled in six years, resulting in a crisis in teacher supply in a profession that has become “incompatible with normal life”, according to Mary Bousted, the general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers.

Denouncing the government’s record on schools, she said the education system was “being run on a wing and a prayer”, with teachers exhausted, stressed and burnt out in a profession that was being “monitored to within an inch of its life”.

I can't post the link but available via The Guardian website.

The notion that Irish NQTs can flock to the UK every year and pick up teaching jobs no problem in any subject area says all we need to know about how the UK system is running at the moment.

While we are heading that way gradually, it's still hard to get work here. I'm not so sure that will be the case in 10 years time. The concept of a full time permanent job is long gone. CID? Yes. Full time hours? Count yourself lucky to have 11.

gaiscioch · 02-04-2015 12:46am

petejmk wrote: »

May be dismissed in relation to points raised but thought it interesting with regard to teaching in the UK and the pressure being exerted:
Almost four out of 10 teachers quit within a year of qualifying, with 11,000 leaving the profession before they have really begun their career and record numbers of those who remain giving up mid-career, according to analysis of government figures.

The exodus of new recruits has almost tripled in six years, resulting in a crisis in teacher supply in a profession that has become “incompatible with normal life”, according to Mary Bousted, the general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers.

Denouncing the government’s record on schools, she said the education system was “being run on a wing and a prayer”, with teachers exhausted, stressed and burnt out in a profession that was being “monitored to within an inch of its life”.

I can't post the link but available via The Guardian website.

Thanks for posting; I often wondered about those statistics. This seems to be the Guardian article:
Four in 10 new teacher quit within a year

Some excerpts from that article 'The exodus of new recruits has almost tripled in six years, resulting in a crisis in teacher supply....in 2011 just 62% of teachers who gained qualified teaching status that year were still teaching a year later.... Bousted said it was “a dismal retention rate” compared with 2005 when 80% remained in teaching'.

Well worth reading the full Guardian article.

The Irish teachers' unions should be highlighting what is happening in the English system as it's clear this government is intent upon imitating it. It's (well passed) time to publicly take on this government by showing what has become of its model school system in England. I have never once heard an ASTI/TUI representative warn about the system this government is following. And what about opposition political parties? It should be easy to challenge government policy on this.

evolving_doors · 02-04-2015 7:37am

As regards hoping for some support from opposition parties: Supporting teachers at this time won't get much votes (sympathy for public sector is at an all time low).

Maybe on the back of the Dunnes strike today we might get a mention. I'll bet the majority of this country will be in favour of the Dunnes workers but give little credence to Teachers' employment conditions when in fact its the exact same issue.

ethical · 02-04-2015 10:26am

Recently we are being bombarded in the media with 'great news'about the green shoots of growth in the economy and this is certainly most welcome.Unfortunately the wheels that keep the economy turning are a total mess.Take the Health Service for example,nothing but stories of how long an elderly parent spent on a trolley before getting a bed and then waiting for a specialist appointment in a so called centre of excellence.The local and regional services are taken away and moved to a larger centre.Did the 'experts' not realise that if every local service is fed into a larger so called centre of excellence,that centre gets clogged up beyond repair,look at the mess that is University College Hospital Galway,trolleys and queues out the door every day? The same can be seen all over the country.
What about education? Its a very similar story. With the onslaught of the 'new' Junior Certificate there will be more and more onus at local level,ie the school.At the moment there are a certain amount of projects associated with some subjects,this in theory is a great way of learning but not at a time when the resources of the people is at its lowest in years.Many teachers talk about the hardship that is showing up in their schools with regards to printing projects.Parents do not have the money to spend on printing projects and at the end of the day many school teachers take it on themselves to print the projects rather than the student not submitting a project at all.Some times its the teachers money used ,other times its the schools finance I gather.Add to this timetabling issues,there are a significant number of teachers around the country doing classes at lunch and after school on a number of days per week as the need exists especially where honours maths is concerned.This work is done without any pay,infact some teachers are forced into doing this for fear of not having employment next year.This issue is never mentioned in the media.Middle management does not exist in the majority of schools or if it does it is done by a teacher that has a full class timetable and is sometimes done from home,calling parents in the evenings etc,as there is no time to do this during the day.This is totally acceptable by teachers and Principals love it as they do not have to go and complain and ask for more resources in some cases.I will not even mention the dreaded Croke Park Hours,imagine going into your doctor or solicitor in the evening and him telling you there was no need to pay for whatever service you wanted as he was obliged to do a certain number of hours for free (because some media mogul forced the issue).The green shoot of recovery may be sprouting but rot has set in at ground level and will soon take over,it already has a strong foothold in some schools and is acceptable by staff.Its time to UNITE and do something about it.

evolving_doors · 04-04-2015 1:11pm

Jan O' Sullivan on Clare Byrne now. Thank god they didn't get Pat king. The guy from the TUI is very good and set out the issues very clearly (he said his blood was boiling listening to her).

Chancer3001 · 04-04-2015 2:10pm

Guy from tui started very very well. But was too nice to her by a mile.

Oh Jan you've moved mountains since being in office.

All we want to do is sit around a table.

He didn't stick her enough about this stupid 40%

evolving_doors · 04-04-2015 7:33pm

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Guy from tui started very very well. But was too nice to her by a mile.

Oh Jan you've moved mountains since being in office.

All we want to do is sit around a table.

He didn't stick her enough about this stupid 40%

I think thats best kept for negotiations. He was doing a bit of plámâsing to show the public that the unions are sitting calmly at the table while she's standing out in the rain in a huff. It was more jibing than sweet talking though as he knows she's doomed to fail without teachers.
I thought it was a great performance (compared to what Pat King would offer)... although it looks like the TUI want to conceed more than the TUI.

I was a bit preturbed when Gerry said he was all for the short courses! I thought that idea had died a death.

Would folk on here be happy to accept everything else if the 40% was put on ice for a few years. Although who's going to correct the projects etc?

spurious · 05-04-2015 6:19pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

although it looks like the TUI want to conceed more

This is possibly because TUI policy already existing from ages ago re teacher assessment of their own students is that they agree with only it if the following conditions (in no particular order of importance) are met:

it is voluntary
it is paid
there is training/an exam conference for it
it is externally moderated

Benicetomonty · 07-04-2015 2:43pm

More lunchtime protests in the works if tweets from TUI convention to be believed. Is that really the best they can do?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0407/692562-teachers-tui-asti/

evolving_doors · 07-04-2015 3:30pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

More lunchtime protests in the works if tweets from TUI convention to be believed. Is that really the best they can do?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0407/692562-teachers-tui-asti/

Wow they really know how to punish their members into accepting a deal.

km79 · 07-04-2015 3:35pm

what an absolute JOKE

vamos! · 07-04-2015 3:48pm

I don't get how this helps our cause. Presumably those on S&S still have to do it, so we have life as usual in school, students having lunch as usual and staff forgoing their lunch to stand at the gate? I can't see the logic??? I do, and will continue to do as the union says because I don't think we should pick and choose their directives but I won't be happy if this happens on the day that I have no frees and orals...

07-04-2015 3:55pm

Can anyone remember from the last stupid lunchtime protest what the position was on extracurricular? Was it supposed to be cancelled or left up to teachers?

I really don't see the point in these protests. The only thing achieved is teachers who may have been free missing their lunch.

km79 · 07-04-2015 4:27pm

TUI president did not mention lunchtime protest in speech at conference but it was in info released to media
it has also not been mentioned at asti conference yet (speeches yet to come though)
they obviously were afraid of the members reactions.........

doc_17 · 07-04-2015 8:30pm

Total waste of a good lunchtime

man_no_plan · 07-04-2015 11:48pm

It will get the message out there that we are still opposed to this new jc.

The bitching and moaning in the teaching profession is unbelievable. Realistically we will be eaten alive if we strike again before the summer. Thus keeps the issue alive and should gain currency with the public.

Id sooner give up a few minutes of mu lunch time now to try prevent the imposition of these reforms Tha whinge when they're foisted upon ud.

As the tui president said today it wasn't meant to go this way. We were supposed to put up and shut up bit ee didn't and we have made significant gains. So we either all put our shoulder to the wheel and support your union or just sign up to the jct website and prepare for the wonderful new jc.

gaiscioch · 08-04-2015 12:19am

man_no_plan wrote: »

Id sooner give up a few minutes of mu lunch time now to try prevent the imposition of these reforms Tha whinge when they're foisted upon ud.

Like yourself, man_no_plan, I have no problem giving up my lunchtime either. I suspect the sole concern is that lunchtime protests will not achieve the aim of rejecting this yellow pack English system being imposed upon us under the guise of "reforms".

As I said elsewhere, I genuinely am willing to take more strike day pay deductions if it will finally put an end to the decline in working conditions which has been ongoing since 2009. Teaching is not a good job, never mind a vocation, if we are reduced to pen-pushing, paper-filling administrators and our classrooms are in effect offices rather than places of inspiration, enlightenment and fun. Let us be clear about our vision for our profession, and the teaching culture we are unequivocally rejecting.

rainbowtrout · 08-04-2015 12:46am

man_no_plan wrote: »

It will get the message out there that we are still opposed to this new jc.

The bitching and moaning in the teaching profession is unbelievable. Realistically we will be eaten alive if we strike again before the summer. Thus keeps the issue alive and should gain currency with the public.

Id sooner give up a few minutes of mu lunch time now to try prevent the imposition of these reforms Tha whinge when they're foisted upon ud.

As the tui president said today it wasn't meant to go this way. We were supposed to put up and shut up bit ee didn't and we have made significant gains. So we either all put our shoulder to the wheel and support your union or just sign up to the jct website and prepare for the wonderful new jc.

Who will it get the message out to? Lunchtime protests affect practically nobody aside from the teachers. Extra curricular at lunch may get cancelled in some schools. For one day, that's not a big deal. Lessons are not disrupted. Parents won't even notice because they won't be forced to make other arrangements for their children that day. The last lunchtime protest, all we got was a few students a little bit confused by the whole thing asking in afternoon classes 'Were ye protesting at lunch? Why were ye striking at lunch? Aren't strikes supposed to close the school?' Students that might not understand all the politics of what is going on still understand the basic concept of a strike.

I'd love to see the union executive have the balls to call a strike day in April/May. That might get Jan's attention.

evolving_doors · 08-04-2015 1:30am

Looks like things are going ahead regardless.

Welcome to the box ticking job that used to be a profession called teaching.

€3.5m deal brings 40 jobs and first centre for research on student assessment
In a key move, nearly €1m of the investment is going towards a partnership with Dublin City University(DCU) to set up a Centre for Assessment and Research in Education (CARE), the first such in Ireland.

DCU president Professor Brian MacCraith said CARE would develop tests that would better assess the preparedness of Irish students, at all levels of education, in the areas of critical thinking and skills assessment, in addition to knowledge recall.

He said CARE would provide an objective voice in Irish education and strengthen Ireland's workforce.

It is coming at a key time, against the backdrop of moves to reform the Junior Certificate, including an end to total reliance on the traditional exams.
Teachers are opposed to the proposal that they take some responsibility for assessing their own students, but it is also generally acknowledged that there is a lack of expertise in Ireland around different forms of student testing.

Every day we go into work we take responsibility for assessing our students, it's just that idiots who think they know better don't realise it.

So does anyone think that the writing is on the wall? (The money's been long spent anyway)?

doc_17 · 08-04-2015 8:50am

Lunchtime protests are a waste of time. What happened the last time we had one? Nothing. It took two days of strike action to bring them to the table and make concessions.

NufcNavan · 08-04-2015 1:23pm

Anyone catch the bile that Newstalk allowed Ed Walsh to get away with earlier? Really is frustrating. He beats the anti teacher drum with his incorrect facts and hyperbole and the public laps it up. They feel reassured that an academic hates the teachers too.

*** Proposed New Junior Cert. **Read Mod Warning Post #1 Before Posting**

Comments

* Proposed New Junior Cert. Read Mod Warning Post #1 Before Posting**