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The Fiscal Treaty Yes or No

  • 27-04-2012 3:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭


    Who is voting for and against the Fiscal Treaty. Its time for the debate


«13456711

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    I'm voting NO.

    I want the government to get serious with our spending problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭bradknowell


    Who is voting for and against the Fiscal Treaty. Its time for the debate

    What are you voting yourself?


    I think I'll do what I normally do when it comes voting time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Kracken


    i'll be voting No unless they can provide accurate and comprehensive information in laymans terms that explain why I should vote Yes.

    The current government is doing what BIFFO did with the Lisbon Treaty and treating us as with ignorance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,781 ✭✭✭clappyhappy


    I hate to admit this but I have no idea what its about, I need to do some research into it. Will keep an open mind on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    I have no idea what it is about yet, but I hope people are voting on the actual treaty and not just voting no as a two fingers to the government. This crisis started long before they were around and the consequences of a yes or no vote will be here long after they are gone, so in a sense the treaty is bigger than them


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭longshanks


    It seems to me that all the politicians etc. who are pushing for the yes vote are more representative of business, banks and Europe than ordinary people. Those who claim to represent ordinary people, seem to be pushing for the no vote.
    Mixed in with that are the same head nodding sheep who want us to vote yes to everything, and the usual shitehawks who want us to vote no to everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭MitchKoobski


    I'll be voting yes.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    I'm voting NO.

    I want the government to get serious with our spending problem.

    Your voting no for the wrong reasons so. The government are, according to the troika anyway, on track with our spending problems. Its more the employment issue which is on many minds at the moment.

    We are being bailed out because we over spent. We didn't have money to meet ends meet. The EU/IMF gave us money on certain conditions. The idea of this treaty is to go someway of preventing such a disaster (nothing will be fully proofed, as with anything, but it goes a way of addressing it) and guarantee us access to bailout funds if we need them in the future.

    By rejecting the treaty, we put Ireland at a big risk and don't exactly send a strong signal across Europe which doesn't help our financial situation either.
    Kracken wrote: »
    i'll be voting No unless they can provide accurate and comprehensive information in laymans terms that explain why I should vote Yes.

    The current government is doing what BIFFO did with the Lisbon Treaty and treating us as with ignorance.

    The campaign has yet to get started properly on either side. Its due to kick start very soon and a copy of the treaty is being sent to every home by the government. The referendum committee will be making a report shortly and their website will go live shortly also. The government has their own website on the treaty already launched ahead of the official campaign start stabilitytreaty.ie.

    Sinn Fein launched their campaign the other day. They had a leaflet selectively quoting economists, who they labelled as experts. Those economists were negative on parts of the treaty but said in conclusion and in balance the treaty was better for Ireland. Sinn Fein excluded the positive part of the quote and just quoted the negative aspects, causing a lot of red faces within Sinn Fein as people called them out on it by the economists, government politicians and people who spotted it.

    Its early days yet to run campaigns at full strength. Strange - I know!
    longshanks wrote: »
    It seems to me that all the politicians etc. who are pushing for the yes vote are more representative of business, banks and Europe than ordinary people. Those who claim to represent ordinary people, seem to be pushing for the no vote.
    Mixed in with that are the same head nodding sheep who want us to vote yes to everything, and the usual shitehawks who want us to vote no to everything.

    Well, those who claim to represent the ordinary people told us during every single EU referendum it was bad for us and we are screwed. Sinn Fein included, who have objected to every treaty including Ireland joining the EU and the formation of the Euro. Were we ****ed? Clearly not. The EU have been very beneficial for Ireland over the years and we are much more modern society, much more developed and a society with more fairer and balanced laws. We have moved forward thanks to Europe who have been giving us big money to improve the country on items such as water, sewage, roads, transport etc.

    The same groups who claim to "represent the ordinary people" are far from that. They claim the same expenses and get the same wage as every TD. Some even claim very high expenses, yet claim to represent the ordinary people.

    We have had a mixed reaction by unions - some saying No, some saying Yes, some saying they wont say either way. Plenty of economists, experts as Sinn Fein called them, are in favour of the treaty. This includes the current Central Bank governor, who was an economist before, who is in favour of the treaty.

    Today, Standard & Poor's the rating agency have said they will not be downgrading Ireland's credit rating but it will be downgraded in the event of a No vote.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 9,081 Mod ✭✭✭✭ziedth


    I don't care how short sighted and childish it is..........screw the government I'm voting no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭blue note


    Kracken wrote: »
    i'll be voting No unless they can provide accurate and comprehensive information in laymans terms that explain why I should vote Yes.

    The current government is doing what BIFFO did with the Lisbon Treaty and treating us as with ignorance.

    Why no? Why not vote yes if you don't understand it? Or why not abstain?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    Sully wrote: »
    Your voting no for the wrong reasons so. The government are, according to the troika anyway, on track with our spending problems. Its more the employment issue which is on many minds at the moment.

    We are being bailed out because we over spent. We didn't have money to meet ends meet. The EU/IMF gave us money on certain conditions. The idea of this treaty is to go someway of preventing such a disaster (nothing will be fully proofed, as with anything, but it goes a way of addressing it) and guarantee us access to bailout funds if we need them in the future.

    By rejecting the treaty, we put Ireland at a big risk and don't exactly send a strong signal across Europe which doesn't help our financial situation either.

    I'm not voting No for the wrong reasons. The last thing we need to do is continue to borrow more money. What we really need to do is default and drop out of the eurozone.

    We're not being bailed out either. That money we get has to be paid back with interest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭blue note


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    Sully wrote: »
    Your voting no for the wrong reasons so. The government are, according to the troika anyway, on track with our spending problems. Its more the employment issue which is on many minds at the moment.

    We are being bailed out because we over spent. We didn't have money to meet ends meet. The EU/IMF gave us money on certain conditions. The idea of this treaty is to go someway of preventing such a disaster (nothing will be fully proofed, as with anything, but it goes a way of addressing it) and guarantee us access to bailout funds if we need them in the future.

    By rejecting the treaty, we put Ireland at a big risk and don't exactly send a strong signal across Europe which doesn't help our financial situation either.

    I'm not voting No for the wrong reasons. The last thing we need to do is continue to borrow more money. What we really need to do is default and drop out of the eurozone.

    We're not being bailed out either. That money we get has to be paid back with interest.

    So if they don't loan us money, should we just cut public spending to make up the difference? All public sector salaries, pensions, hospital supplies? But seriously, what should we do about the deficit if we cannot borrow?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    Sully wrote: »
    Your voting no for the wrong reasons so. The government are, according to the troika anyway, on track with our spending problems. Its more the employment issue which is on many minds at the moment.

    We are being bailed out because we over spent. We didn't have money to meet ends meet. The EU/IMF gave us money on certain conditions. The idea of this treaty is to go someway of preventing such a disaster (nothing will be fully proofed, as with anything, but it goes a way of addressing it) and guarantee us access to bailout funds if we need them in the future.

    By rejecting the treaty, we put Ireland at a big risk and don't exactly send a strong signal across Europe which doesn't help our financial situation either.

    I'm not voting No for the wrong reasons. The last thing we need to do is continue to borrow more money. What we really need to do is default and drop out of the eurozone.

    We're not being bailed out either. That money we get has to be paid back with interest.

    If we don't borrow the money, how else do we pay for all the services and pay the bills that need paying? We need the money and it would have been a disaster without it. Even Sinn Fein know this.

    A bailout can be with or without interest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Tom Cruise


    We are all ****ed no matter what we do so lets piss the **** off in power and say NO


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    blue note wrote: »
    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    Sully wrote: »
    Your voting no for the wrong reasons so. The government are, according to the troika anyway, on track with our spending problems. Its more the employment issue which is on many minds at the moment.

    We are being bailed out because we over spent. We didn't have money to meet ends meet. The EU/IMF gave us money on certain conditions. The idea of this treaty is to go someway of preventing such a disaster (nothing will be fully proofed, as with anything, but it goes a way of addressing it) and guarantee us access to bailout funds if we need them in the future.

    By rejecting the treaty, we put Ireland at a big risk and don't exactly send a strong signal across Europe which doesn't help our financial situation either.

    I'm not voting No for the wrong reasons. The last thing we need to do is continue to borrow more money. What we really need to do is default and drop out of the eurozone.

    We're not being bailed out either. That money we get has to be paid back with interest.

    So if they don't loan us money, should we just cut public spending to make up the difference? All public sector salaries, pensions, hospital supplies? But seriously, what should we do about the deficit if we cannot borrow?

    We also can't do that because we don't have money to pay much for very long, so its better to get fully back on track (I expect a mini loan at the very end) before going it alone.

    Plus rejecting the money and the treaty wont help investment into the country as we will be seen as unstable and they wont care if we have the two fingers to Europe or not because their focus is on their business.


  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭twistyj


    We're damned if we do.
    We're damed if we dont.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    twistyj wrote: »
    We're damned if we do.
    We're damed if we dont.

    How are we damned if we do? Could it not be to our benefit to have another body keep watch on our budgets to try prevent a mess? We will only have austerity if its abused, much like without it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭Trick of the Tail


    The referendum is effectively about whether we allow foreigners to have more non-elected control of our country, or not.

    The reason there IS a referendum is that the constitution prohibits a government handing control of the country to a foreign body without the agreement of the populace.

    Every time Ireland hands even more control over to foreigners, I feel a little sad, since Ireland fought long and hard for it's independence. Now we're giving that independence away, little by little.

    Ireland being in the EU has not been a universal Good Thing. If we weren't in the Euro we could have devalued our currency a couple of years ago, and that would have helped our economy hugely.

    If there wasn't the cushion of European funds, our governments might not have been so wasteful and profligate over the years: Imagine, if you had an uncle who you knew would lend you money anytime you needed it, you might not be so careful about your housekeeping.

    Instead of saying we need to keep Uncle happy, we should instead be saying that we need to get our own house in order. That means starting to run the country more efficiently by forcing the civil service into the 21st century, and forcing them to stop being so wasteful.

    Our current government have given up trying to save money by making their end of things more efficient, but instead they're grabbing more and more money off us. Instead of trimming their outgoings, they are trying to increase their incomings.

    However - until the government convince me that its best to hand over more control of the country to people we haven't voted to run our country, I'll be voting no.

    *

    Except. I really don't think there are any politicians in Ireland who are either not corrupt or possess the ability to manage the company that is Ireland Ltd. proficiently. All recent governments, whatever colour, have shown that they are either completely incompetent, or dishonest, or both.

    Maybe foreigners would do it better.

    So what to do?

    :(

    Andy


  • Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭witless1


    Sully wrote: »
    How are we damned if we do?


    Because Kenny committed us to it and signed something that he didn't have the mandate to under our constitution?

    Because if 12 countries ratify it, it will come into force.


    It makes the vote a bit of a joke really, like Nice, like Lisbon, they will ask us once, get a No, ask us twice and hope for a yes, if they don't get it who says they won't ask a third time. If they get 12 countries on board will they even bother asking us a second time?


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭forfuxsake


    If you are on the dole or PS wages you have two options:

    Vote Yes: Your dole payment/PS wage will not be cut immediately. It will however continue to be cut over the next few budgets as this will be necessary to reduce borrowings. At the same time there will be tax rises and higher household charges/water charge etc meaning that you will be effectively much worse off. There is unlikely to be much employment created and unemployment could get worse.

    Vote no: Who knows, could endanger future bailouts meaning the dole/PS wages might fall quite quickly and sharply. Ireland could have to leave the euro. On the plus side, after such a heavy fall then growth could begin meaning that new jobs would be created.

    Private sector will probably mostly vote yes to maintain current wages etc. Many I know will vote NO, hoping to collapse the welfare system and Croke Park.

    I am voting YO


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭Trick of the Tail


    witless1 wrote: »
    Because Kenny committed us to it and signed something that he didn't have the mandate to under our constitution?

    Because if 12 countries ratify it, it will come into force.


    ...but only within the countries that voted for it. Its not an EU-wide thing already, as the UK isn't taking part.

    I hate the way they bandy phrases around, like 'fiscal compact' - that no-one knows the meaning of.

    A compact is a thing ladies keep face powder in.

    What I think it means in this context is that the fiscal 'world' within the EU will be 'compacted' as the unelected European Commission (or actually a subset of) will have more control of all partaking countries' economies.

    Now, the EU is totally and institutionally corrupt. They won't even agree to have their own financial affairs publicly audited - probably because all the waste, inefficiency and corruption would then become all to obvious, and the whole shooting match would collapse.

    So I'm not sure I trust that shower to spend my pocket money for me, let along run a country's economy.


    A.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭Stokolan


    Wont be voting. Shall b e in Spain that week :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭jmcc


    When you've a loaded gun pointed at a terrorist's head, you've got to be prepared to pull the trigger without hesitation. The bunch of wimps and failed school teachers in government haven't got that killer instinct. That's why Merkozy and the scum in Brussels walk all over them. Want us to be be good little Europeans? Well guess what - I'm Irish. And the polite response, better than the harsh Anglo-Saxon one that they deserve, is this: No!

    Regards...jmcc


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    I'm amazed that no-one has mentioned debt reduction yet. This bs that the government is trying to peddle regarding the promissory notes and kicking the can till 2024 is ridiculous. Tell the troika that unless there is a SERIOUS amount of debt reduction that there is a very good chance there will be a no vote.

    If this referendum is passed we'll still be under the cloud of a massive amount of debt and while that is there the government will not be able to put forward a meaningful funded economic stimulus strategy. We'll be stuck in austerity for the foreseeable future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭millie35


    Out of respect for our ancestors who gave their lives for a free ireland, it has to be a no vote.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,393 ✭✭✭danjo-xx


    It's all kind of a damp squib for the ordinary punter because it only needs a few countries to vote it in. Also if France gets a new leader the whole thing may be dumped or renegotiated.

    Brendan Hoooooowlin:D said that we have to accept this treaty to be part of Europe and
    we don't want to be just part of europe but we want to help solve all it's problems.

    oh holy jesus..... the Abba song Money Money Money springs to mind,

    "IT'S A RICH MAN'S WORLD"



    Apart from the above I refuse to do business with anyone that holds a gun to my head.

    I'll be voting no


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭insight_man


    What are you voting yourself?


    I think I'll do what I normally do when it comes voting time.

    I'm voting no, but I'd like a good honest debate about it so people can make an informed decision.


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭insight_man


    I hate to admit this but I have no idea what its about, I need to do some research into it. Will keep an open mind on it.

    Fair comment. Hopefully this debate will help you decide


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭insight_man


    longshanks wrote: »
    It seems to me that all the politicians etc. who are pushing for the yes vote are more representative of business, banks and Europe than ordinary people. Those who claim to represent ordinary people, seem to be pushing for the no vote.
    Mixed in with that are the same head nodding sheep who want us to vote yes to everything, and the usual shitehawks who want us to vote no to everything.

    True, so you will have to look consider both arguments and see which best suits you before you vote. This thread will get a lot of comments on it before the vote


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  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭insight_man


    I'll be voting yes.


    Very funny


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