Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 11:25am

lividduck wrote: »

Compulsory Irish has failed, hardly anyone actually speaks it fluently in terms of the overall population, proof if it were needed that optional subject choice could do no worse.
If the current system is broken, why not try another way?

Where is the current system broken? There is a problem, but I do not agree that compulsion is the problem, and you have yet to show that it is.

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 11:34am

deise go deo wrote: »

Bull, I would never have taken Irish for LC if it had been optional, and I know plenty of Irish speakers who feel the same.
The LC is all about points, and no one is going to take a subject like Irish over somthing that is easy to get points in unless they have to, the LC is not about what people want to do and it has never been about students trying to be the best they can be, its about getting the most points and nothing more.

You are what is wrong with the LC. You can still do everything at third level even if you didn't get the points. Now if Irish is a choice maybe they will change the course to make it better for people who what to do it. From what I see in your posts you don't what Irish to be a choice because you had to do it.

NIMAN · 10-04-2012 11:41am

Enjoyed the piece in the paper the other day about how the census figure of 1.7 million people claiming they can speak Irish is the greatest lie ever in the history of Ireland.

As someone who came from the North into Ireland to live, I cannot believe how so few people are fluent in Irish considering how many years they spent 'learning' it. Its a shocking statistic.

And that census stat is nonsense. Why would so many lie on the form?

Wibbs · 10-04-2012 11:52am

NIMAN wrote: »

Why would so many lie on the form?

I'd say a mixture of cultural aspiration and cultural guilt with a side order of confusion as to what fluency actually means. You see the guilt aspect in threads like these, though it can be subtle mind you. You read things like "I can't speak it but wish I could/learn it even if you never use it/it's our heritage/the britz/famine/insert historical hobby horse here killed it/you're not really Irish if you don't have the language/". Set against that a person who can ask to go the toilet and watches TG4 from time to time may tick the box.

Nigh on five generations of Irish people have been told it's their culture/heritage. We've been schooled in it, forced to learn it for various careers and had the cupla focal thrown at us as a right on cultural hat we should all wear and yet here we are. While it's popularity is higher than I can recall, that popularity is set against the large contraction in the language even since the foundation of this state. It's all part of that schizoid internal cultural dialogue we can be prone to.

Other cultural stuff like GAA and Irish music doesn't suffer from this. Why? Because it's relevant to people's lives. The language isn't to nearly the same degree.

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 11:53am

Jester252 wrote: »

You are what is wrong with the LC. You can still do everything at third level even if you didn't get the points. Now if Irish is a choice maybe they will change the course to make it better for people who what to do it. From what I see in your posts you don't what Irish to be a choice because you had to do it.

I would have said that learning to exams and the excessive influence of the points system on educational outcomes is what is wrong with the LC, but apparently I am the problem:o

I think Irish should remain compulsory for the time being because I believe that the first change that needs to be made is a thorough reform of the curriculum. I see making it optional as a quick fix solution that will solve nothing.

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 12:13pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Jester252 wrote: »

You are what is wrong with the LC. You can still do everything at third level even if you didn't get the points. Now if Irish is a choice maybe they will change the course to make it better for people who what to do it. From what I see in your posts you don't what Irish to be a choice because you had to do it.

I would have said that learning to exams and the excessive influence of the points system on educational outcomes is what is wrong with the LC, but apparently I am the problem:o

I think Irish should remain compulsory for the time being because I believe that the first change that needs to be made is a thorough reform of the curriculum. I see making it optional as a quick fix solution that will solve nothing.

How will I say this.
IF IRISH WAS MADE OPTIONAL IT WILL HAPPEN AS PART OF A EDUCTIONAL REFORM. It will be the biggest change to the LC ever. Look at maths it has been changed twice it the last couple of years as it wasn't working. Irish is the only subject you have to do for the LC. Why? You can't say that Irish is working in the current form. Approx 90% of student who studied Irish ,no choice, for 16 years are not fluent and Approx 50% can barely speak it. How is it working? More people have a better level of the thrid language, choice, in 5-6 years then Irish. Why is it fair that a person who whats to attend a NUI to do a sic or eng course need half of their LC subject to be language. In a perfect world we can do any subject we what but for now we should have a system that a person has to do at least one language,one number subject and one sic subject.

Seachmall · 10-04-2012 12:20pm

deise go deo wrote: »

I think Irish should remain compulsory for the time being because I believe that the first change that needs to be made is a thorough reform of the curriculum. I see making it optional as a quick fix solution that will solve nothing.

So are your opposed to making Irish optional or just opposed to making it optional before an overhaul of the entire curriculum?

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 12:22pm

Jester252 wrote: »

How will I say this.
IF IRISH WAS MADE OPTIONAL IT WILL HAPPEN AS PART OF A EDUCTIONAL REFORM. It will be the biggest change to the LC ever. Look at maths it has been changed twice it the last couple of years as it wasn't working. Irish is the only subject you have to do for the LC. Why? You can't say that Irish is working in the current form. Approx 90% of student who studied Irish ,no choice, for 16 years are not fluent and Approx 50% can barely speak it. How is it working? More people have a better level of the thrid language, choice, in 5-6 years then Irish. Why is it fair that a person who whats to attend a NUI to do a sic or eng course need half of their LC subject to be language. In a perfect world we can do any subject we what but for now we should have a system that a person has to do at least one language,one number subject and one sic subject.

IF I POST IN ALL CAPITALS THEN WHAT I SAY IS MORE VALID.
Making Irish optional has always been a quick fix for polititions who want to be seen to be doing something without having to put any effort in.

I dont see any improvement to the education system in just dropping Irish as a core subject(There are three by the way) A reform of the curriculum is needed before it is made optional in my opinion.

Personally I would not see being able to do what ever you want as a perfect system.

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 12:25pm

Seachmall wrote: »

So are your opposed to making Irish optional or just opposed to making it optional before an overhaul of the entire curriculum?

Personally I don't see making Irish optional as a priority, I don't think making Irish optional will improve the education system.
If it is to be made optional, then it should be done as part of a much wider reform of the subject in general with it becoming optional as a step well down the line.

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 12:53pm

deise go deo wrote: »

IF I POST IN ALL CAPITALS THEN WHAT I SAY IS MORE VALID.
Making Irish optional has always been a quick fix for polititions who want to be seen to be doing something without having to put any effort in.

I dont see any improvement to the education system in just dropping Irish as a core subject(There are three by the way) A reform of the curriculum is needed before it is made optional in my opinion.

Personally I would not see being able to do what ever you want as a perfect system.

Making Irish optional will be the biggest change to ever happen to the leaving cert.
It will change how Irish is taught in the LC.
I said this before Irish is the only subject you must do for the LC. Like I said before maths wasn't working so they changed it twice. Why can't they make this change to Irish? You agree it needs to be fixed so lets fix it. Lets start will this. The subject will be completely different. Classrooms will be filled with students who what to be there,who what to learn,who love the subject not filled with student who are there just cos. Most of the classes you have that you loved to go to were the ones that were filled with students who what to learn the subject not students that are there to get the pass.

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 1:07pm

Jester252 wrote: »

Making Irish optional will be the biggest change to ever happen to the leaving cert.
It will change how Irish is taught in the LC.
I said this before Irish is the only subject you must do for the LC. Like I said before maths wasn't working so they changed it twice. Why can't they make this change to Irish? You agree it needs to be fixed so lets fix it. Lets start will this. The subject will be completely different. Classrooms will be filled with students who what to be there,who what to learn,who love the subject not filled with student who are there just cos. Most of the classes you have that you loved to go to were the ones that were filled with students who what to learn the subject not students that are there to get the pass.

No, Classrooms will be empty because making a subject optional and reforming how it is taught are not the same thing, and making a subject optional does not imply that how it is taught will be changed.
Suggesting that if Irish is optional people who want to do Irish will still do it is a flase argument as the LC is not about doing what you want to do, it is about getting points, and regardless of if a student likes Irish, or would someday like to be able to speak Irish, if they think they will get more points by not doing it, they wont.

Maths was not working so they made it optional? Nope, Maths is still a core subject in every school in the country.
They did change the maths curriculum, but this is what I am suggesting be done for Irish, why can you not see that?

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 1:21pm

Math was always a choice subject unlike Irish you don't have to do it many schools have it as a subject you have to do but it is not required unlike Irish which you muct do. I fail to see how you don't get it.
Why must I do Irish for my LC?
Lets make this simple change first before we spend money on retooling it.

Dostoevsky · 10-04-2012 1:24pm

The average English-speaking monoglot who constitute the anti-Irish language brigade in this thread won't like this article in today's Irish Times:

Trilingual kids will never be tongue-tied

Imagine that, a society where Irish people can speak English and Irish. Shock. We can't have that sort of Irish cultural diversity. It's far more convenient for the personal circumstances of the undereducated types who hate Irish to propagate the linguistically fascist myth that monoglot societies are the norm in human history. A classic case of "we're ignorant, so we must bring the rest of society down to our level so that we don't feel insecure". Damnant quod non intellegunt.

Ficheall · 10-04-2012 1:29pm

grindle wrote: »

(forgot to keep this going for that Irish guy)

I appreciate the thought, but I gave up Polish a few years ago as, much like Irish, I didn't enjoy the classes, and I wasn't picking it up as I wasn't using it every day.
My posting in Irish has nothing to do with this thread specifically - I do it for practice and it has the added benefit of making me think twice before posting - something many posters (not suggesting you) could benefit from.
I can leave it out for this thread though, as people seem to be taking offence at it which, in my opinion, is more disappointing than the decline of the language.

Wibbs wrote: »

And why is english of practical use? Because it's our actual everyday language. Irish would occupy the "impractical" ground on that score for the majority of Irish people.

That's my point - Irish is impractical... I was seeking to compare Irish's practicality to that of other subjects aside from Maths and English.
Given that Maths and English are clearly so practical and loved, though, it would be nice if that were reflected through people using correct English and
not being quite so hopeless at Maths.

grindle wrote: »

Perhaps using 'practical' on it's own is a mistake. Useful. Knowledge-building and useful as information to use in your future as a (hopefully) productive member of society...

I agree 100% on the IT comment.
I'd contend that History and Geography, for example, are about as useful as Irish. The point of primary school (and, to a degree, secondary school and college) is to have people learn, to teach them to accept a set instructions and apply them to a given task. It doesn't matter much what "subject" it is.
I don't see why Irish shouldn't be such a subject.

I don't think Irish should be compulsory for secondary school students, but I think if it is to be taught at primary school level it should be taught properly so there is less of this strange hatred of a language.

Stained Class wrote: »

People like you have the habit of taking the good out of anything..

Care to justify that assertion?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-04-2012 1:40pm

deise go deo wrote: »

You would argue that making Irish optional would not be detrimental to the language?
Go on then, lets see that argument.

The student is what is important, not the langauge.

deise go deo wrote: »

I would have said that learning to exams and the excessive influence of the points system on educational outcomes is what is wrong with the LC, but apparently I am the problem:o

I think Irish should remain compulsory for the time being because I believe that the first change that needs to be made is a thorough reform of the curriculum. I see making it optional as a quick fix solution that will solve nothing.

The student is what uis important, not the curriculum. (Your first paragraph, i would agree with)

deise go deo wrote: »

IF I POST IN ALL CAPITALS THEN WHAT I SAY IS MORE VALID.
Making Irish optional has always been a quick fix for polititions who want to be seen to be doing something without having to put any effort in.

I dont see any improvement to the education system in just dropping Irish as a core subject(There are three by the way) A reform of the curriculum is needed before it is made optional in my opinion.

Personally I would not see being able to do what ever you want as a perfect system.

The student is what is important here, not the langauge.

deise go deo wrote: »

Personally I don't see making Irish optional as a priority, I don't think making Irish optional will improve the education system.
If it is to be made optional, then it should be done as part of a much wider reform of the subject in general with it becoming optional as a step well down the line.

The student is what is importan here, not the system.

Your problem, here, Deise, as always in these arguments, is that you think the Irish language is all things to all people and the most important thing here. Well, it's not. I've said this time and time again to you and to others, but no one on the pro side seems to accept it.

The student is what is important here. The system serves the student. NOT the other way around.

Iwasfrozen · 10-04-2012 1:50pm

Dostoevsky wrote: »

The average English-speaking monoglot who constitute the anti-Irish language brigade in this thread won't like this article in today's Irish Times:

Trilingual kids will never be tongue-tied

Imagine that, a society where Irish people can speak English and Irish. Shock. We can't have that sort of Irish cultural diversity. It's far more convenient for the personal circumstances of the undereducated types who hate Irish to propagate the linguistically fascist myth that monoglot societies are the norm in human history. A classic case of "we're ignorant, so we must bring the rest of society down to our level so that we don't feel insecure". Damnant quod non intellegunt.

You really know how to make friends. I assume from your post you are a fluent irish speaker?

Wibbs · 10-04-2012 1:55pm

Dostoevsky wrote: »

It's far more convenient for the personal circumstances of the undereducated types who hate Irish to propagate the linguistically fascist myth that monoglot societies are the norm in human history. A classic case of "we're ignorant, so we must bring the rest of society down to our level so that we don't feel insecure". Damnant quod non intellegunt.

Ahh that's lovely Ted, now if you could kindly point out where any of the "Fascists" said monoglot societies are the norm in human history? How many said they "hate Irish"? From what I've read none of the former and precious few of the latter. Observational skills failing you or are reading what you want to read?

What with your continued insistence that anyone who doesn't agree with you is undereducated, ignorant, insecure and a thinly veiled west brit, if someone was looking for instruction on how to not pitch missiles in glazed dwellings you'd be high on the list of instructors.

kowloon · 10-04-2012 2:08pm

deise go deo wrote: »

You would argue that making Irish optional would not be detrimental to the language?
Go on then, lets see that argument.

Can you not see any merit in trying the carrot over the rod?
Another two years on top of 12 achieves nothing.

Do you really think weaker students will start dancing in the fields when they have Irish holding back their chance of getting into their favorite course?

The language will only be served by people who want to speak or study it.

History is my thing, as you may have guessed from previous posts, and I think it's a greater part of our culture than the language, but I believe people should be allowed to make their own choices.

Before some fucwit jumps in, I'd like to state that doesn't cover murder, running a concentration camp, enslaving the galaxy or anything that messes with other peoples lives.

It's just selfish to try and control other people's lives for no gain.

grindle · 10-04-2012 2:28pm

Ficheall wrote: »

I appreciate the thought, but I gave up Polish a few years ago as, much like Irish, I didn't enjoy the classes, and I wasn't picking it up as I wasn't using it every day.

Force yourself to learn it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

My posting in Irish has nothing to do with this thread specifically - I do it for practice and it has the added benefit of making me think twice before posting - something many posters (not suggesting you) could benefit from.
I can leave it out for this thread though, as people seem to be taking offence at it which, in my opinion, is more disappointing than the decline of the language.

It does come across as a goading mechanism. If it's not, shoot away, and I apologise.

I'd contend that History and Geography, for example, are about as useful as Irish.

We'll disagree here, especially concerning History. Geography might be better halved (just so we're not totally ignorant of the Earth's rotation round the Sun, not vice-versa.) and an introduction to very basic economics introduced instead. Supply/demand, the difference between wants and needs, educating on past mistakes. Maybe our teacher TDs wouldn't have made/keep making such infantile, rapacious mistakes.
I might be overestimating the average young child there, I'm not sure.
Definitely use philosophy rather than religion to teach ethics and morality though. Kids are taught not to ask "Why?" far too early and it's probably the most important question anybody can ask at any given time.
Anyway, too far off-topic: I bid you a Jew.

kowloon · 10-04-2012 3:34pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Bull, I would never have taken Irish for LC if it had been optional, and I know plenty of Irish speakers who feel the same.
The LC is all about points, and no one is going to take a subject like Irish over somthing that is easy to get points in unless they have to, the LC is not about what people want to do and it has never been about students trying to be the best they can be, its about getting the most points and nothing more.

Maybe your biggest calling in life was Classical Studies, or German (just choosing two at random) but you were never forced to do those at any level.

By the Leaving Cert you've been exposed to Irish for 12 years. As you state above, the Leaving Cert is about the points. People will choose what best suits them for that, and they should be allowed to.

If they find an appreciation for the language later they can study it, and they'll likely be very enthusiastic about it, and that will spread.

If money is to be put towards sustaining the language it would be far better used on those who want to learn it, and when they want to learn it.

There seems to be a perception among some that school is the cut-off point for any education that isn't career related. Life-long learning might be a fashionable term but we haven't taken to it as much as we could. If more people could get their heads around learning something for the enjoyment of it society would benefit as a whole. Irish could well thrive in that environment, and education would be broader at all levels.

lividduck · 10-04-2012 3:40pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Where is the current system broken? There is a problem, but I do not agree that compulsion is the problem, and you have yet to show that it is.

All the arguements put forward for cumpulsion show that therte is a problem, students are FORCED at huge expense by the state to study a language they clearly have little interest in as outside of school less than 2% of the population speak it in any meaningful way on a daily basis, therefore forced indocrination has failed to prevent the rapid decline in spoken Irish. QED the current system is broken (and expensive).

lividduck · 10-04-2012 3:48pm

Dostoevsky wrote: »

The average English-speaking monoglot who constitute the anti-Irish language brigade in this thread won't like this article in today's Irish Times:

Trilingual kids will never be tongue-tied

Imagine that, a society where Irish people can speak English and Irish. Shock. We can't have that sort of Irish cultural diversity. It's far more convenient for the personal circumstances of the undereducated types who hate Irish to propagate the linguistically fascist myth that monoglot societies are the norm in human history. A classic case of "we're ignorant, so we must bring the rest of society down to our level so that we don't feel insecure". Damnant quod non intellegunt.

Any arguement which relies on small minded and childish name calling is an arguement best ignored.

kowloon · 10-04-2012 3:48pm

Dostoevsky wrote: »

It's far more convenient for the personal circumstances of the undereducated types who hate Irish to propagate the linguistically fascist myth that monoglot societies are the norm in human history. A classic case of "we're ignorant, so we must bring the rest of society down to our level so that we don't feel insecure".

You need to cut that and step out of your superiority complex for a while.
I would have thought a 'linguistic facist' would be one who forces a language on others, not someone who advocates choice.

Mickeroo · 10-04-2012 4:27pm

Dostoevsky wrote: »

The average English-speaking monoglot who constitute the anti-Irish language brigade in this thread won't like this article in today's Irish Times:

The average english speaking monoglot? So most of the population of ireland then.

Dostoevsky · 10-04-2012 5:12pm

Wibbs wrote: »

a thinly veiled west brit

You have quite the obsession with this term. Once again, it is you who uses it more than any other poster here. Condemning people for using a term they don't use but which you use repeatedly is really odd, and not a little irrational. There seems to be something else going on, at a personal level for you, that would explain your fixation on this term.

Dostoevsky · 10-04-2012 5:13pm

lividduck wrote: »

Take a quick look at the bold and italicisied text, basic grammar, spelling, and comprehension, I'm not the one claiming to be a qualified primary school teacher, but if I found out that a semi-illiterate like you

lividduck wrote: »

All the arguements.... Any arguement which relies on small minded and childish name calling is an arguement best ignored.

Argument.

Dostoevsky · 10-04-2012 5:14pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

The average english speaking monoglot? So most of the population of ireland then.

Right here is part of the problem. Had I written 'The average English-speaking monoglot, who constitute the anti-Irish language brigade in this thread' then I would have clearly equated the average English speaking monoglot with the anti-Irish brigade here. I didn't. Instead, I wrote, 'The average English-speaking monoglot who constitute the anti-Irish language brigade in this thread'. Saying the anti-Irish brigade is full of English speaking monoglots, as I said, is quite a different thing to saying that the average English speaking monoglot is anti-Irish.

senordingdong · 10-04-2012 5:19pm

p wrote: »

Ask anyone would they like to be fluent in any language, and they'll say yes. The problem is people don't want to actually put the work in.

Too true.

bazza1 · 10-04-2012 5:25pm

Learned Irish at school up tp LC...can barely speak the cupla focail, to my shame.
Had 16 x 2 hour German beginner classes and picked up a lot. Maybe the way it is taught?
I believe Irish should be optional but we should encourage it!
Give extra points in LC to encourage the spoken word, ie emphasis on the coversational.
Encourage taxpayers to study the language as a European language ie A1, A2, B1, B2 levels etc.
Encourage the achievement of attaining a high level of converstional Gaeilge by reducing your income tax by 1 or 2%...radical or what?
Remember the old Fainne Nua...silver and gold level? Jebus...showing my age!

Slan go Foil!

Wibbs · 10-04-2012 5:31pm

Dostoevsky wrote: »

You have quite the obsession with this term. Once again, it is you who uses it more than any other poster here. Condemning people for using a term they don't use but which you use repeatedly is really odd, and not a little irrational. There seems to be something else going on, at a personal level for you, that would explain your fixation on this term.

Oh god.

We've hit the level of "you smell. No, you smell". BTW I used the term as shorthand for some of the more long winded descriptions of the stereotype such as your own. "I find the people most rabidly against Irish tend to be in two categories, the first of which is those with issues about their own place in Irish culture, usually due to having a closer connection to Britain than most people here. To say they have a chip on their shoulder about Irishness and Irish culture is an obvious understatement". Correctly too. I'm reflecting a fixation in the minds of many of the Gaelgoiri set. Yours included.

Set against your odd claim about "linguistic Fascists" and people who "hate Irish" on the thread, never mind the completely left field notion that anyone suggested monoglot cultures were the norm, my irrationality pales into insignificance.

I love the Grammar Nazi bit too. Sure sign of a waning position with a side order of condescension, usually based on some insecurities of ones own. See what I did there? At least I realise it's daft.

Meh, keep it up there Ted. That is if you want to have passers by think you and people like you are an example of the mindset of the Irish lobby. You're proving the point for the "Fascists".

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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