Final Fantasy 7....by a non gamer

Memnoch · 15-04-2012 10:43am

noodler wrote: »

X's was the best battle system of any FF for me.

Quite easily too.

XIII had a good battle system, but I enjoyed X, VII and IX more. VIII was fun at the time but the whole draining magic thing was a pain.

keane2097 · 15-04-2012 11:03am

Complicated isn't better than simple just because it's complicated.

ancapailldorcha · 15-04-2012 12:08pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Whatever about XIII's flaws, I think it had the best battle system since FFV in the series.

Definitely. For a system with an "auto-battle" command, I never felt so involved in a battle in an FF before.

Mindkiller · 15-04-2012 12:20pm

XIII had a very good battle system but it also had a ton of problems. Like only being able to manually control only one character. At least with XII you could prioritize certain abilities, but in XIII you were stuck with AI controlled Saboteurs and Synergists casting the crappier buffs and debuffs rather than the ones you needed. I can't remember Veil or De-protect ever being any use, and it was a pain trying to make you SYNs cast Enfire when fighting those turtles (You'd have to cast Imperil first but even then you couldn't guarantee that your allies would cast the right spell).

Sentinels were a nuisance as well with how they would stand right beside your weaker mages, making them still take a ton of damage. You could 'move' them with Commando, but that was no good when the enemies were right up in your face. Again, in XII you could move your tanks around and keep them away from your casters. The only use I got out of SENs was with the tortoise paradigm (defense buff) against big group attacks.

Lightning's AI-controlled RAV was messed up as well. She kept alternating between -strike and casting abilities, which really slowed down her attack animations. But to fix that you'd have to control her directly, meaning you can't use Fang's Highwind or Vanille's Death. At least XIII-2 seems like it fixed those problems.

That's why for all its faults, I really think XII's gambit system is the best. You have full control over everything. XIII felt like a step backwards in that respect.

ride-the-spiral · 15-04-2012 12:28pm

I think the battle systems I've enjoyed most were VIII and XII although people are going to disagree with me. X was alright, I didn't like having to switch characters and gave up on it after a while, I also never liked the sphere grid. XIII's was actually good, but I think because I found the actual game to be such a chore itself I got sick of doing battles and the battle system along with it.

And on the topic of VII, me and my brothers got stuck on an absurd amount of bosses on our first playthrough of the game, so we most certainly didn't find the first boss the hardest. And my friend and his brother were stuck on demon gate for a couple of years.

Mindkiller · 15-04-2012 12:30pm

I found X a little too cookie-cutter tbh. Tidus kills wolves, Wakka kills birds, Lulu kills blobs etc.

ancapailldorcha · 15-04-2012 12:51pm

Mindkiller wrote: »

XIII had a very good battle system but it also had a ton of problems. Like only being able to manually control only one character. At least with XII you could prioritize certain abilities, but in XIII you were stuck with AI controlled Saboteurs and Synergists casting the crappier buffs and debuffs rather than the ones you needed. I can't remember Veil or De-protect ever being any use, and it was a pain trying to make you SYNs cast Enfire when fighting those turtles (You'd have to cast Imperil first but even then you couldn't guarantee that your allies would cast the right spell).

Sentinels were a nuisance as well with how they would stand right beside your weaker mages, making them still take a ton of damage. You could 'move' them with Commando, but that was no good when the enemies were right up in your face. Again, in XII you could move your tanks around and keep them away from your casters. The only use I got out of SENs was with the tortoise paradigm (defense buff) against big group attacks.

Lightning's AI-controlled RAV was messed up as well. She kept alternating between -strike and casting abilities, which really slowed down her attack animations. But to fix that you'd have to control her directly, meaning you can't use Fang's Highwind or Vanille's Death. At least XIII-2 seems like it fixed those problems.

That's why for all its faults, I really think XII's gambit system is the best. You have full control over everything. XIII felt like a step backwards in that respect.

I'm with you on the party leader thing. I don't see why they locked the party leader and made 5/6 summons unusable in battle in the process. I found DeProtect to be fairly useful but Veil was a bit crap. I had none of the synergist problems. They'd cast haste, protect/shell, bravery/faith and then an en-spell which is essentially what I'd do. Sentinels couldn't provoke every single enemy though explaining why enemies might still attack mages and the like. Lightning has balanced stats, hence her alternating between physical and magical attacks. Did you try giving her a magic boosting weapon?
I'm still impressed SE completely changed their leading franchise for XII. The gambit were great in that they had a "management" feel to them and made farming much less dull.

Mindkiller wrote: »

I found X a little too cookie-cutter tbh. Tidus kills wolves, Wakka kills birds, Lulu kills blobs etc.

X was a great game but that got really tiresome.

Mindkiller · 15-04-2012 1:05pm

But the problem with alternating between attacks is that it takes her longer to finish her turn. As a rav her main thing to do is to stagger, so -strike moves are the best for that because they're quicker. RAVs are generally crap for dealing damage. With SENs the problem wasn't so much with provoke, but with how they'd stay rooted to the spot in Steelguard or whatever. Meanwhile, you might have some enemy shooting tons of rockets or something at your SEN who's standing right beside Hope or whoever else. Essentially doing almost nothing to mitigate the damage of those attacks. SENs were only good against maybe one or two enemies just using basic physical attacks. Their other use was the defense buff you get, which is why I would use Tortoise.

Almost all of these problems could have been avoided if they allowed you to prioritise certain attacks and maybe even move your characters about. Going back to an enclosed 'arena' for battles seemed like another massive step back in XIII.

ancapailldorcha · 15-04-2012 1:24pm

Lightning alternating attacks is more inefficient than being a problem IMO. The only real ways I can think of around it would be to give her a strength-boosting weapon or use her as party leader.
Sentinels have fringeward which reduces AoE damage to allies but I see your point. Snow escorting Hope to PalumPolom was one of the hardest parts of the game. XII had a similar problem as your characters would move close to the enemy. You could switch between them to avoid this but that was just irritating.

icarus86 · 15-04-2012 2:06pm

Mindkiller wrote: »

What about that guy in the Red XIII cave? I know you can just finish him off with a cheap phoenix down, but that guy wrecked my head for ages. It's not like FFVII was my first time playing FF either, it just wasn't immediately obvious that he'd be susceptible to healing magic. And there were no savepoints either

Gi Attack or something along those lines? Had the same problem with that as well! Took a while to figure out he was actually pretty easy to defeat

Eathrin · 15-04-2012 2:17pm

Are either ff8 or ff9 as good as 7? I never played either of them and wouldn't mind giving them a bash this summer. I think the battle system in FF7 is the best of any game I've ever played, controversial as that opinion may be.

icarus86 · 15-04-2012 2:28pm

FF9 is a really good game, imo its more like the older games than ff7. Never really got into ff8 did'nt really like it, but in sure there are some on here who will be able to give you more info on them both.

Mindkiller · 15-04-2012 2:31pm

FFVIII is equal parts terrible and fantastic. I'd recommend it over IX tbh. FFIX is a good game but it's fairly regressive as well. It's a marked return to the kind of gameplay that you'd see in FFIV and VI. There's not a whole lot in it to set it apart from those games other than nice graphics. Whereas at least VIII was a genuinely daring title, even if a lot of its innovations fell a bit flat.

Junctioning in FFVIII gives you a ton of freedom in developing your characters. Yet it makes it very easy to become extremely overpowered. It also makes using magic in battle useless, unfortunately. Try and learn the rules to Triple Triad early on (it's not that hard) and learn how to refine magic instead of drawing and you might really like it. If you don't do that, then you'll find it dull.

ride-the-spiral · 15-04-2012 3:02pm

I love VIII moreso than IX. I really liked the battle system, although it can be a bit involved. I think the part I liked most about VIII is the the setting and story. I like that it's quite modern (well most of it is), and although some of the story aspects are a bit strange, there are quite a few sections which are so damn cool to play through. And now I want to start playing it again...

IX is also very good. It's more traditional, trying to go be a bit more like the pre VI games and the battle system is more like VII's, and setting is more along the lines of princesses and kingdoms and stuff (still a great story). A lot of people will tell you that IX is the best, and although I disagree, it is up there and definitely should be played.

RedXIV · 15-04-2012 8:44pm

Right guys, so I'm writing this as she's playing across from me.

We went to visit family and I jokingly mentioned she could put FF7 on the PSP and she decided that I needed to do this for her. As of now, we've just visited Aeris's mom after the pillar has fallen.

I've tried to watch as much of her gameplay as possible but I'm not seeing it all. What I have noticed however is her characters are starting to appear overpowered. In a similar vein to the construction site maze, she had some trouble navigating the train graveyard, there long enough to unlock Cloud's Blade Beam. Her battling style is one of pure aggression, she rarely will consider healing party members, instead waiting for them to be a single hit from death before tossing a potion their way. We did have some confusion again over materia but she seems to be rock solid on it now. Equipping weapons and armour still isn't perfect, but she's getting a lot better.

The cross dressing situation was actually not bad. She learned the importance of talking to everyone, and how a single conversation can kickstart the mission. The squats went terrible though

I mentioned after the Don picked Tifa for fun times that if you fulfill certain criteria that he will pick you. This has changed her view on the game with her finally realising what the term "replay value" means.

She absolutely tore through Aps, and Reno proved to be little more than an annoyance. To my surprise though she did attempt to remove the pyramid in that fight. Didn't get it right, but the fact that she tried means that she's starting to think outside the box.

She is taunting me about getting close to the 10hr mark but I can't see her giving up yet, especially considering the longest she's been stuck on anything is about 25 mins. Although I can hear the wire climbing music behind me now and am hoping the battery thing doesn't piss her off too much.

Coming up to the Shinra building now, one of my favourite bits in the game, so I'm looking forward to seeing how she deals with it. I'm being called over to do the wire grabbing part now so I'll update again later!

Revolution9 · 15-04-2012 8:48pm

This thread inspired me to buy FF7 last night on PSN. Started it today, nothing better than revisiting a childhood favourite. Cheers.

MitchKoobski · 15-04-2012 9:02pm

I'm just dying to find out what her reaction to the Shinra massacre is.

martineatworld · 15-04-2012 9:30pm

BEST THREAD EVARRRRRRRR!

I don't even know why, but I genuinely can't wait for each update... I really hope she finishes the game, she's got the hopes and dreams of the whole JRPG community on her shoulders! :pac:

Aurongroove · 15-04-2012 9:50pm

I had a play through recently.

these were my boundaries:

I would do everything in the game I wanted to, i.e. side quests, getting Materia, limit breaks, Yuffie/Vincent but I was strictly not allowed to grind:

I would participate only in the battles I naturally encountered while moving through the game following the storyline and side stories as they happened.
I would escape all battles going to and from side quests after the first visit (i.e. when going back to the Mythril mine to get the mythril or to fort condor), and while searching in the woods for Yuffie.
I did fight the monsters in the shinra mansion, the ancient forest and the sunken carrier etc, but this is what a normal player would have done.

unlocking Aries limit break,(i.e. killing enough targets) was done using weak enemies after a point where the EXP gained was completely minuscule (I used the enemies in the mythril caves after leaving gold saucer). and in general I very, very strictly didn't allow myself any lame excuse "whoops, I've grinded accidentally". other then that I just played the game.

It;s amazing the perspective you can get on the difficulty when I played through.
the hardest fight in the entire game was the flying monster yer man unleashes on you in the wutai mountains during the yuffie side quest, he was one hit killing everyone on my team and I literally ran out of items trying to defend myself.

I finally got a game over: northern crater (I was trying to get all the way through with no game over) those ****ing gargoyles hit me (something told me "these guy are dangerous for some reason, not worth fighting") I was escaping them but one showed up and I though "how bad can it be?"

l4 death...all my team were on levels x4...

icarus86 · 15-04-2012 10:43pm

Revolution9 wrote: »

This thread inspired me to buy FF7 last night on PSN. Started it today, nothing better than revisiting a childhood favourite. Cheers.

Think i might just do the same when i finish my exams:D

Retr0gamer · 15-04-2012 11:21pm

FFVIII has one of the most god awful stories ever and the battle system is a broken mess. However that broken mess of a battle system saves it. It's so easy and fun to break the game wide open and the game is a breeze as well so it's still loads of fun to go through even if you want to punch every character in the game.

RedXIV · 16-04-2012 12:06am

Update from earlier. She's still playing away on the psp. She had gotten the batteries before going up so that wasn't an issue. After getting to the shinra building she opted to sneak in. For those of you who never snuck in, it involves a lot of stairs. She did laugh at Tifa calling Barret a retard though.

After getting to the 6th floor she did have a bit of trouble sneaking past the guards but got past it eventually. The floor with the mayor on it was a lost cause really but I didn't expect her to get it anyway. The floor with the doors wasn't too bad with her getting 2 of the 3 items but everything went wrong in the room with the midgar model. She didn't get the fact the placing the pieces was unlocking chests on the same floor. As a result, she spent about an hour searching for what to do before checking the floor again for pieces. And even after unlocking several chests, she didn't grasp it was always the ones on the same floor and kept visiting the store on the 2nd floor.

We got past it though and got to the point where she met Red XIII which you may notice is similar to my username. The pride on her face was amazing as she pointed out "that's you!". After getting Red she fought the boss who regenerates his comrades and quickly changed her attack strategy. She identified the main guy as the real target very quickly so quite proud! She also encountered 'all' materia for the first time due to missing it earlier in the game. She's already seen the potential of its effects.

So as it stands, the massacre has just occurred and she's about to really hear about sephiroth for the first time! She also has become slightly warmer towards aeris, describing her as 'vulnerable....... But still a slut '

till next time!

Retr0gamer · 16-04-2012 12:32am

I wouldn't really call aeris vulneable. Tifa is more of a dope than her. Tifa might be tough but she can't express her feelings and it's aeris that teaches her to stop being like that. Aeris on the other hand is very open about her feelings and accepts her faith with no qualms. She's not exactly as good a character as Terra or Celes but still a good example as an early strong female character in games. Tifa is a bit more cliche, the childhood friend that the main character eventually falls for... it was an RPG/film and fantasy trope well before FFVII.

martineatworld · 16-04-2012 9:26am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I wouldn't really call aeris vulneable. Tifa is more of a dope than her. Tifa might be tough but she can't express her feelings and it's aeris that teaches her to stop being like that. Aeris on the other hand is very open about her feelings and accepts her faith with no qualms. She's not exactly as good a character as Terra or Celes but still a good example as an early strong female character in games. Tifa is a bit more cliche, the childhood friend that the main character eventually falls for... it was an RPG/film and fantasy trope well before FFVII.

Retr0, can you please just let us have one FF7 thread that is completely fanboy-ish and nostalgia tainted?

I don't care if the story is rubbish after Midgar, if the characters are cliche, if it's too simple, if it doesn't compare well to other Final Fantasies, if the materia system is rubbish, if the graphics haven't aged well etc.

I just want this thread to remain about that first experience, and for the vast majority of us here to celebrate that as opposed to having to reply to your criticisms of the game and how it isn't as good as 6/9/other like every other FF thread we have here.

Mindkiller · 16-04-2012 9:36am

No. It's important that we all know that FFVII is incredibly derivative of Neon Genesis Evangelion because of robots and overwrought protagonists and has nothing original to say. It is the anti-thesis of artistic expression in video games and it is important that Retrogamer lets us know this. You should all feel bad for liking it.

Seriously though, the graphics are great. I won't have anyone say otherwise. I love early, blocky 3-D graphics. Way better than the pseudo-realistic stuff that came out on DC and PS2 and even early 360. That looks horrible

Retr0gamer · 16-04-2012 10:05am

I'm just discussing the game, and if you actually read the previous comment I was complimenting it.

Maybe you should direct it to the fanboys that won't stop having a freaker everytime they see something they preceive as negative so that some actual discussion can occur.

Mindkiller · 16-04-2012 10:38am

edit:But see that's the problem retro. We all know FFVII has a ton of issues and a really weird translation. But its just that whenever FFVII comes up on this forum you get into this wearying criticism of little things which kind of dulls the conversation a bit. You have this condescending attitude towards 'fanboys' that you show in almost every post you make about the game. Not all of us are fanboys either. Some of just really like it, but that's it.

I agree that it sucks how everyone is a blank template and I hate how Could tells Barrett to attack the scorpion tail so you can get murdered by its laser. It also bugs me that it's never made clear if the Sephiroth you see is just an alien from space or a walking corpse and I hate how much of a gamebreaker enemy-skill is. But the experience as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This game are good.. or something..

edit: ..experience as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts.. that makes no sense at all but you get what I'm trying to say, I hope

martineatworld · 16-04-2012 10:53am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm just discussing the game, and if you actually read the previous comment I was complimenting it.

Maybe you should direct it to the fanboys that won't stop having a freaker everytime they see something they preceive as negative so that some actual discussion can occur.

"She's not exactly as good a character as Terra or Celes" is what I read.

"if it doesn't compare well to other Final Fantasies" is how I referenced it. And to nitpick, I wouldn't even class your post as a compliment. It's a discussion of the two female leads, which results in you saying Aeris is a good example as an early strong female character , but not as good as previous FF characters and then commenting how it's non original. By dragging in the comparison to other FF's, you're making it a non-compliment.

The other examples were previous things you've said about the game. I just want a positive thread about the game instead of it descending into the same old sh1te.

Maybe just let the fanboys have their day? Just once?

RedXIV · 16-04-2012 11:20am

I meant to add in there as well that she is slightly spooked by the lack of sound when the massacre occurs. Not massively but enough to be wary about anything jumping out at her.

I have to say, probably the hardest thing so far has been to prevent myself from giving hints and advice all the time. I've helped her once or twice with materia, in one case she was simply asking me to review her current set up to see if it was done correctly, which it was. But there really is nothing like watching someone play through it for the first time. Especially as she starts to develop opinions on the characters etc. I think Tifa appeals to her more as its more in line with her personality rather than Aeris's openness. I'd presume she'd be in the majority too as there are very few people who I know who'd match Aeris's personality

And after disliking Barret for ages, she's finally coming around to him now, more due to him being a parent I think than anything else.

I really hope she waits for me to come home before she continues with it today

Retr0gamer · 16-04-2012 11:20am

Mindkiller wrote: »

edit: ..experience as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts.. that makes no sense at all but you get what I'm trying to say, I hope

Agree totally on this point.

As far as I can see it so far my only points have been that the translation on the first boss makes it in my opinion the hardest boss in the game, which is how I felt when I played it for the first time. I also mentioned it was a breeze making it ideal for beginners and not being negative about the game on that point and disagreeing with the OP's girlfriends thoughts about Aeris. It's just gone off tangent when some got riled up by misinterpreting what I was saying about the game and then it ventured into talk about the game system. So I'm going to keep commenting on this thread because I'm enjoying it but I'm going not going to get riled up and will ignore anyone that makes ridiculous accusations and jumps to equally ridiculous conclusions.

Final Fantasy 7....by a non gamer

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