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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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Comments

  • #5582
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    alastair wrote: »
    Who's taxing their way out of recession? It's an attempt to repay our national debt. Stacking up external borrowings won't help pull us out of recession either.

    The way to tackle external debt is to cut spending to match our revenue - something we should have done in 2008/2009. Instead we kept spending and, with an EU gun to our head, took on unlimited private banking debt.

    We must cut spending to the level of a primary surplus; then get serious about the debt issue.

    That is: default or write-down.

    It will happen anyway, increasing taxation to try to repay the debts won't, and can't, work. So whether you think the immediate pain is too great is irrelevant; we should have got it over with in 2009 - instead we're waiting till the economy is destroyed, state assets sold off and letting unaffordable primary public current expenditure (funded by even more debt) carry on - and trying to squeeze more tax out of a stagnant economy to pay for it.

    The sooner we face reality and cut out the cancer of Banker Debt (default) and match non debt-repayment spending to current taxation - the sooner we can start to recover.

    There is no alternative; by delaying the default it will be bigger, and the economy worse, than if we act now.

    There is no easy way out, but pretending we can repay the Bank debts isn't a way out at all.


  • #5583
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    ...There is no easy way out, but pretending we can repay the Bank debts isn't a way out at all.

    ...And so far what have we got to boot for shoving all those billions (another 3 Billion note at the end of this month!) into that bottomless bank hole...
    ...according to Bloomberg:

    Ireland has been exemplary in its austerity drive. Public-sector salaries have fallen by an average of 13 percent. Taxes have been raised where necessary, but not in a way that will hurt business. The Irish have been willing to tighten their belts and adjust to hard times...

    Ireland is doing exactly what it has been told it should be doing. It is following the path laid down for Greece, Portugal and Spain, and doing so with admirable self-restraint and discipline. There ought to be some reward for all that effort. But there is very little sign of it.

    The end result:

    Credit rater Standard & Poor’s lowered its grading on Irish debt by one level to AA-, stressing the heavy cost of rescuing a banking system struggling to cope with the collapse of the property market. S&P estimates the cost of recapitalizing the banks will be about 50 billion euros (48.03€ billion). That’s almost a third of the economy...

    http://www.capitalspectator.com/archives/2010/08/is_there_an_aus.html


  • #5584
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    The way to tackle external debt is to cut spending to match our revenue - something we should have done in 2008/2009. Instead we kept spending and, with an EU gun to our head, took on unlimited private banking debt.

    We must cut spending to the level of a primary surplus; then get serious about the debt issue.

    That is: default or write-down.

    It will happen anyway, increasing taxation to try to repay the debts won't, and can't, work. So whether you think the immediate pain is too great is irrelevant; we should have got it over with in 2009 - instead we're waiting till the economy is destroyed, state assets sold off and letting unaffordable primary public current expenditure (funded by even more debt) carry on - and trying to squeeze more tax out of a stagnant economy to pay for it.

    The sooner we face reality and cut out the cancer of Banker Debt (default) and match non debt-repayment spending to current taxation - the sooner we can start to recover.

    There is no alternative; by delaying the default it will be bigger, and the economy worse, than if we act now.

    There is no easy way out, but pretending we can repay the Bank debts isn't a way out at all.

    Isn't it funny that the PS 'increments', pay rises to you and me will cost just about as much as this charge is meant to bring in in 2012.

    There's different figures out there, ranging from €90 million to €250 million but if you take it that it's somewhere in between it's probably around the €160 million mark.

    Coincidence or what??


  • #5585
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,454 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    gurramok wrote: »
    If people object to their money going to "bankers and bondholders", why do they continue to pay other taxes which are going to the same crowd?

    This is the one tax we can do most about. You don't even have to leave your chair.
    Don't register, Don't pay.


  • #5586
    _Gawd_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    The way to tackle external debt is to cut spending to match our revenue - something we should have done in 2008/2009. Instead we kept spending and, with an EU gun to our head, took on unlimited private banking debt.

    We must cut spending to the level of a primary surplus; then get serious about the debt issue.

    That is: default or write-down.

    It will happen anyway, increasing taxation to try to repay the debts won't, and can't, work. So whether you think the immediate pain is too great is irrelevant; we should have got it over with in 2009 - instead we're waiting till the economy is destroyed, state assets sold off and letting unaffordable primary public current expenditure (funded by even more debt) carry on - and trying to squeeze more tax out of a stagnant economy to pay for it.

    The sooner we face reality and cut out the cancer of Banker Debt (default) and match non debt-repayment spending to current taxation - the sooner we can start to recover.

    There is no alternative; by delaying the default it will be bigger, and the economy worse, than if we act now.

    There is no easy way out, but pretending we can repay the Bank debts isn't a way out at all.

    Agreed for the most part - I don't know where people get this idea that the debt needs to be matched with higher taxes. On what planet do higher taxes get the economy going? You need to let people KEEP their money in their pockets so that they can spend it in the economy. This is basic economics - something nobody in Dail Eireann has the slight clue about and instead rely on these institutionalised "Economists" recruited from universities. That will get us nowhere.

    The quicker we face up to reality, the better. YOU HAVE TO LIQUIDATE THE BAD DEBT. It is precisely because of the Euro that we're in this mess - the EU's massive expansion of credit flooded Ireland with cheap cash and subsequently we got unlimited amounts of malinvestments. It's a textbook case of the Austrian Business Cycle Theory. I do believe we must balance the books and get a Constitutional input relevant to that exact cause. In the meantime, we should pay back what we borrowed to run services and NEVER BORROW AGAIN. To get a swift position to at least maneuver, we must not default because default means we are not paying back the loans we recognise. Therefore, we must repudiate the bank debt. Repudiation means that we do not own this debt (which we don't) and therefore, we're not paying it back. MErkozy cannot kick us out - capitalism dictates that poorly mismanaged companies should fall.

    These morons in our government are servile fools - career politicians with no interest in the people they claim to represent.


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  • #5587
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    Sorry to break bad news mate. So is this one.

    Rubbish as usual. Far from it. Mate. Do we have another plastic paddy here?


  • #5588
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    They don't own them. Same story with the car owning citizens. You do get the whole logic thing, yeah?

    Apparently far more than you do. It has been outlined - by numerous posters -; myself included - as to how blatantly immoral this attempted tax is. But you seem to have great difficulty grasping the actual fiscal reality.


  • #5589
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Rubbish as usual. Far from it. Mate. Do we have another plastic paddy here?

    I suspect we have one that likes the look of simplistic views - sees everything as "whole pots" and doesn't actually like to look at the individual details, the laws and other more experts (beyond this forum alone) views on such complicated matters.


  • #5590
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,454 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    Do the maths. The shortfall exists one way or another. No one forced us to bail out the banks - for better or worse (it's worse) the blanket bank guarantee was a problem that our own, democratically elected, representatives devised. But even if we didn't have that hanging over our heads we'd be in debt regardless. No bull****.

    Yes but the money we wasted on Anglo would have put a fair dent in our other debts and we are going to throw away another 3.1 Billion at the end of this month.
    Had all the money we have given away been deflected to our own debts we would be far better off now.
    The fact that this was not done is the fault of the last Govt and this crowd for agreeing with it.


  • #5591
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Last friday Paul Mcsweeney ceo of the LGMA was on different radio bulletins saying there was finally a big surge in payments- but some of todays reports Indicate different.
    So far 85 per cent of people are still refusing to register with the deadline of the 31st March looming.

    http://www.98fm.com/2012/category-news-sport/laws-to-change-to-enforce-household-charge/
    Latest figures show that only 15% - some 251,458 of the 1.6 million liable for the charge - have registered

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/household-tax-may-cut-pay-091244920.html


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  • #5592
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    So, neither you nor Enda can actually point to a quantifiable problem with property tax? Fair enough. Talk of 'castles' isn't really going to cut it, and last I looked, no-one was advocating child tax.

    OK - just to refresh you. Banks bailed out. monies diverted from tax take to fund this. Ergo the introduction of this tax.

    Along with we're borrowing €400m every week to prop up CS/PS pay and "entitlements", along with an over-generous SW system.

    If €10 a week were deducted from the wages or each member of the CS/PS alone it would raise €156m a year. Roughly the same as this immoral tax. And that's just a tenner. And the ones causing the deficit would be paying something towards it.

    SW rates and "entitlements" also need to drastically cut. Again billions saved. But - hey - no. Let's just tax the overtaxed instead.

    And while we're at it we'll make the ones which we had to provide houses to exempt from the charge. And you have the audacity to query those who oppose it?


  • #5593
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Biggins wrote: »
    I suspect we have one that likes the look of simplistic views - sees everything as "whole pots" and doesn't actually like to look at the individual details, the laws and other more experts (beyond this forum alone) views on such complicated matters.

    Precisely. The sort of thinking that has brought this country to where it is.


  • #5594
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,454 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Absolutely. This whole we are paying very little tax is nonsense. When you add all of the government taxes on items purchased every day its a substantial amount of money out of everyone's pocket to subsidise a bloated public sector which is inefficient and poorly run.

    This household charge and eventual house tax is here to protect the CPA.

    The problem with the Public Sector is that there are too many administrators. The enforced cuts were in the Frontline services and not a middle/senior management where they should have been.
    Our Public Sector is not any bigger than most in Europe but there are far too many "people in hiding" in it.
    I have no problem with the wages being paid to our nurses, firemen, gardai etc but the big money is being paid out at the top. The cuts and retirement all took place at the bottom rung too instead of at the top.


  • #5595
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,454 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    When you add all the taxes together, we still rank at 25 out of the 29 EU states in terms of taxation overhead. And we have a country that is in the sheeits. Low taxation is grand if you've a sustainable revenue model - we don't.

    Our 'bloated' public service is half the size of Denmark's, ratio-wise.

    True. The "stealth" taxes we have here like VRT, USC and the useless PRSI are much higher though.


  • #5596
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    The quicker we face up to reality, the better. YOU HAVE TO LIQUIDATE THE BAD DEBT. It is precisely because of the Euro that we're in this mess - the EU's massive expansion of credit flooded Ireland with cheap cash and subsequently we got unlimited amounts of malinvestments.

    Got it in one. But no-one has the balls to do it. See my next point below.
    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    In the meantime, we should pay back what we borrowed to run services and NEVER BORROW AGAIN. To get a swift position to at least maneuver, we must not default because default means we are not paying back the loans we recognise. Therefore, we must repudiate the bank debt. Repudiation means that we do not own this debt (which we don't) and therefore, we're not paying it back. MErkozy cannot kick us out - capitalism dictates that poorly mismanaged companies should fall.

    Indeed. The fundamentals of Capitalism are that you succeed or fail. Unless you're a bank. But regarding borrowing again, we cannot stop borrowing as long as we keep our CS/PS/SW rates at artificially high rates so that these people can have their "entitlements".

    FFS some low-raking Civil Servants, Gardai, and TDs are earning more that the heads of state bodies in Spain, which has ten times the population of Ireland.:rolleyes:


  • #5597
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    Agreed for the most part -

    Agree fully; we need to get our house in order and confirm our legitimate if unfortunate debt - it mainly accumulated, and continues to accumulate, since 2008 to keep current spending above our current means.

    This is a vital prerequisite to repudiating Banking debt.

    The Goverment/EU policy of failing to distinguish between the two and trying to suck tax out of a stagnant economy to continue funding both makes FF's activity during the property bubble almost benign by comparison.


  • #5598
    _Gawd_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Agree fully; we need to get our house in order and confirm our legitimate if unfortunate debt - it mainly accumulated, and continues to accumulate, since 2008 to keep current spending above our current means.

    This is a vital prerequisite to repudiating Banking debt.

    The Goverment/EU policy of failing to distinguish between the two and trying to suck tax out of a stagnant economy to continue funding both makes FF's activity during the property bubble almost benign by comparison.

    Oh, I agree 100% with one slight change - that I pay you back for the tenner you lent me, not for the tenner you lent someone speaking on behalf of me without my consent. ;) Thats the difference between default and repudiation.


  • #5599
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    But the same could be said for internet downloading and piracy of music, movies and other things; a lot of people participate in the illegal activity because very few people are ever prosecuted for it. Every now and again, someone gets hit hard, but this doesnt make others "fall in line". People, rather, think that because they are only going after 1 in a 1000, then there's a safe probability that they won't be that 1 person, but rather be one of the 999 others.
    Its not really analgous to online piracy. Its quite difficult to tell whose downloading and who isn't whereas with the household charge, its going to be quite easy to tell. And the government really don't have a dog in the fight with downloading.
    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    Yeah, there's the possibility that everyone gets scared. But I find that more often than not in this country, people maintain a "It will never happen to me" attitude. I just think that given the huge numbers of people who aren't even registering for this, the people will remain united. This isn't a large minority who are sticking together and seeing what happens; it's a stable majority (at least, that's my understand based on the figures I've heard). Falling in line is only an issue when the people who are breaking the law are in an easily targeted, small group. That doesn't apply to people not wanting to pay this charge...
    The polling figures don't show it as a majority, never mind a stable majority. If there was a stable majority willing to defy the charge, the government might go back and try and renegotiate it.

    I suspect that a majority will pay, leading others to fall into line. Once it is widely accepted that the household charge / property tax is here to stay, there will be political pressure to clamp down on the remaining defaulters.


  • #5600
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    Oh, I agree 100% with one slight change - that I pay you back for the tenner you lent me, not for the tenner you lent someone speaking on behalf of me without my consent. ;) Thats the difference between default and repudiation.

    I know the difference!

    Gawd, you must be desperate for a row! :D


  • #5601
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Solair wrote: »
    Considering that they haven't sent anyone an invoice for this, and most people haven't even been formally notified of this new tax, how do they even think they've a leg to stand on legally?

    You could quite reasonably go into court and say "what tax?" "nobody told me about it"... I thought the website was a phishing exercise...
    This makes zero sense at all. Wouldn't the process of bringing someone to court involve telling them why they were being brought to court?

    Only an idiot would turn up in court still protesting that they don't know what the tax is.


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  • #5602
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    dvpower wrote: »

    Only an idiot would turn up in court still protesting that they don't know what the tax is.

    Idiocy could form part of a reasonable defense. :cool:


  • #5603
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Last friday Paul Mcsweeney ceo of the LGMA was on different radio bulletins saying there was finally a big surge in payments- but some of todays reports Indicate different.



    http://www.98fm.com/2012/category-news-sport/laws-to-change-to-enforce-household-charge/



    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/household-tax-may-cut-pay-091244920.html
    Where do you expect 98fm et al get their figures other than from the LGMA?


  • #5604
    _Gawd_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    I know the difference!

    Gawd, you must be desperate for a row! :D

    No, I'm not rowing with you. lol

    I just thought the original post advocated default. :)


  • #5605
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    The LGMA are reluctant to give out figures for whatever reason.


  • #5606
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    The LGMA are reluctant to give out figures for whatever reason.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0319/householdcharge.html
    By last Friday, over 260,000 households of the 1.6 million liable had paid the charge.


  • #5607
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dvpower wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0319/householdcharge.html

    Do those exempt also have to register and does that figure include them?


  • #5608
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Idiocy could form part of a reasonable defense. :cool:
    If someone can convince a judge that they are so stupid that despite being in front of the judge for failing to pay the household charge that they still don't know what the charge is, then they deserve to get off.
    They deserve a bloody prize.


  • #5609
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Do those exempt also have to register and does that figure include them?
    By last Friday, over 260,000 households of the 1.6 million liable had paid the charge.
    .


  • #5610
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,477 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    What's the big rush to pay? I will pay in about 8 or 10 days time. And then I can forget about it until this time next year.


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  • #5611
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Leaving the argument as to whether we are a high tax country as being in dispute it seems that a lot of people are still doing OK. I posted earlier on how many people have Pay TV, the amount being spent on foreign holidays and the amount being held in personal savings accounts in the country and the numbers saving every month. Also the amount of food that is bought and then thrown away without being eaten. I will leave you to look up the figures if you care to.

    Given that 90% of people who want to work are working (there was 5% "unemployment" when we were importing hundreds of thousands of foreign workers) I don't think the country is on it's knees. I remember real poverty and hard times and what we have now is nothing like that.

    Your point being?

    It doesn't matter a hoot if people can afford pay TV or to waste food. It's their prerogative to spend their money how they see fit. That doesn't mean the government can decide to dip their hand into someones pocket whenever they choose especially when it's on wealth which has been taxed already.

    Perhaps the true "unselfish" patriots here should donate their savings if they can afford such luxuries. Otherwise their being selfish and they hate Ireland.
    geeman wrote: »
    Yes, it's an absolute disgrace people would object to paying property taxes when the rest of europe does so already.

    For god sake people, it's only 8 euro per week! you'd only be buying fags or drink with that anyway!

    I'm all for Phil Hogan on this one.. take the money out of peoples bank accounts if they don't comply!

    Ireland needs to step up to the plate and contribute our fair share..

    Signed,
    The Voice Of Reason

    I think he's taking the piss (I hope :pac:)


This discussion has been closed.
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