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Porn, Strip Clubs, etc. How do you feel about them?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    CDfm wrote: »
    Now that we are into specifics of attitudes. I wonder what the OPs and other womens attitudes are.

    Are women secretive about porn,strippers and erotic stuff when its used by women.

    Is Ann Summers sleary and part of the sex industry or innocent bachelorette bonding fun?

    Thats another thread tbh if you want specifics on how women view this sort of thing. I'd also suggest that The Ladies Lounge may be a better place. This is after all the Gentlemen's Club

    Thanks

    MM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    I paid 60 quid for a lap dance in Dublin city once, it was very very well worth it :) Went to a second stip club the same night, beer was sh!te but the women were so sexy :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    nouggatti wrote: »
    Now I haven't quoted your previous post, but there is a vast difference between an erotic/titillating article in cosmo, and having some birds tits in your face in a strip club don't you think?
    The only difference is taste. And taste is subjective.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thats another thread tbh if you want specifics on how women view this sort of thing. I'd also suggest that The Ladies Lounge may be a better place. This is after all the Gentlemen's Club

    Thanks

    MM


    I think it is relevant.

    This is why I think why it is.

    Some definitions of pornography and erotica are vague.Is the image obscene or is it with reference to the audience.

    Take Jill Greenbergs Taking Candy from a Baby Collection which was controvercial and cause upset for its "paedophile" potential she defends as art.

    Some people find homosexuality obscene. So would define an image of a female nude viewed by a woman as art but the same image viewed by a man as porn.

    The First Canadian case in recent laws was a lesbian S&M publication where the court took the view that it was the image and not the context that defined the obscenity.

    This aside I would look at stuff like the Chippendales and Ann Summers etc as entertainment and some Cosmo stuff as erotica like on par with Playboys editorial content.

    So while the OP may be fine with porn -surely it is relevant what her definition is for men and her fellow women. I think womens magazines ,erotic literature and Ann Summers are part of sex industry but often ignored by women searching for a definition.

    I posted it to widen the definitions as I suspect men and women view things differently and fill their porn/erotica needs differently and they are catered for differently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭maherro


    I wouldnt be into going to strip clubs at all really. As a previous poster said its all fake. They arn't interested in you only your wallet.

    As for porn yeah id watch it but with nothing approaching regularity


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    maherro wrote: »
    I wouldnt be into going to strip clubs at all really. As a previous poster said its all fake. They arn't interested in you only your wallet.

    As for porn yeah id watch it but with nothing approaching regularity

    Its got about as much credibility as pro-wrestling.

    Why I wonder is it such a feminist issue?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭maherro


    I wonder is it such a feminist issue?

    Maybe its to do with the objectification of women? It depersonalises them, making them seem as nothing more then sex objects, not real people with real lives. Obviously though, (well I reckon anyway) this opinion would only apply to regular patrons of these establishments.

    Would people have the same view (depersonalise, sex objects) of porn? Is watching porn regularly the same as going regularly to a strip club?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    maherro wrote: »
    Maybe its to do with the objectification of women? It depersonalises them, making them seem as nothing more then sex objects, not real people with real lives. Obviously though, (well I reckon anyway) this opinion would only apply to regular patrons of these establishments.

    I can't understand this. Surely if you take this view all particiapants should be objectified?

    So you get a Chippendale show - the Chippendale is objectified right?
    Would people have the same view (depersonalise, sex objects) of porn? Is watching porn regularly the same as going regularly to a strip club?

    Does it affect women as a gender? What about where the object of the porn is say a young man in a granny seduces schoolboy type show?

    Now I dont watch porn and can't see the mainstream attraction but I also can't see the objectifying.Is it selective cherrypicking?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭maherro


    So you get a Chippendale show - the Chippendale is objectified right?
    it affect women as a gender

    I never said it was applied equally or fairly :cool:. And tbh Im not too I understand the feminist view point


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 37,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    Meant to reply to this earlier but have been a bit busy. Great thread idea.
    Acacia wrote: »
    Would you look at porn alot, or go to strip clubs?

    I'd look at porn, though not very often (less now than I used to, mostly because I get lots of sex these days :D). I only know one bloke who professes not to look at porn at all. I think it's more a means to an end for blokes though. It's not like sitting down to watch a football match or whatever.

    Strip clubs aren't my thing. I think they're about as arousing as wet dog smell.
    Acacia wrote: »
    Do you find it demeaning to men or women, either observer or performer?

    Sometimes for the performer. I've seen porn vids and thought that the participant had been demeaned a bit.
    Acacia wrote: »
    Do you think women in general are not as open about the whole thing as men? Discuss!

    Yes I do think that (that women, in general, are not as open as men about the whole thing). Blokes assume that other blokes look at porn in my experience. I wouldn't say / think the same thing about a woman (at least not without knowing her somewhat). I think you'll find that the percentage of women on boards.ie that use porn will be higher than the average (as there are more young, open minded women on boards than the population as a whole). My wife uses a site called rollercoaster and some of the prudish attitudes to porn displayed by some of the women over there are laughable in our opinions.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    Nothing wrong with porn or strip clubs but as with most things people tend to abuse them at times. I would say it is seen as more acceptable for men to watch porn than for women. There definitely appears to be a stigma attached for women watching porn. As regards strip clubs I do not think this is an Irish phenomenon primarily due to them not being widespread here. Porn isonly a means to an end for most guys I would say and they wouldn't see it as demeaning to the particpants,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 Fano


    I feel that Porn and Strip Clubs are ok.....after all these are peoples jobs....but there is a limit to which any person can withstand also...like there is no need for it to be over exploited...everyone knows these places and things exist and they know where to go to get to them...i think places like amsterdam foe example exploit the industry too much like we all no these things are there but they make it too obvious and over use it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I would like to understand how the exploitation argument works.

    Just say I have someone who is entitled to the dole and housing benefit or can do a job at the minimum wage or higher then they have alternative options to fund their lives other than their careers of choice in the sex industry.

    If you think of it not its only a small minority that go to work in the sex industry.So presumably they are in it for the money as an alternative to normal work and that it is their chosen alternative. How then is that exploitatative?

    Now Im not a supporter of it but I am a supporter of decriminalising prostitution as a way as I understand it gets rid of the criminal element and may improve healthcare.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    CDfm wrote: »
    Is there something stopping you going-even the once?Like,I ve never seen the attraction of a private lapdance myself but a friend of mine was into going to Lapellos for a while.

    Its not the money either I dont go to these places when they are free either.

    I've never been cause I never went looking for it and any time I've seen them they didn't appeal to me. Can't imagine I'd like them. Surely you're better off taking your 50 quid and trying to chat someone up with a few drinks for a one night stand or something ?

    CDfm wrote: »
    I would like to understand how the exploitation argument works.


    Probably similar to the exploitation of workers as per Marx's theories, only it's women selling their most basic asset for money - their body- rather than just their labour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    Probably similar to the exploitation of workers as per Marx's theories, only it's women selling their most basic asset for money - their body- rather than just their labour.

    In what way are they exploited as it operates on the cash nexus. A product or service in exchange for money.

    So how are they exploited as they have a viable alternative course of action which they can take up. In that way there is no force involved or shortchanging or discrimination.

    In other words its a service/commodity with an exchange value in the market place.The other three aspects are value, utility and price.

    I have read that the regulation of the Dutch Market has caused the price to fall.

    So really how exploitative is it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    I don't know.. I'm not making a case for exploitation.


    This article might be of relevance :
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/17/tanya-gold-stripping


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    I don't know.. I'm not making a case for exploitation.


    This article might be of relevance :
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/17/tanya-gold-stripping

    A Weird World View in the Article - Women watch for fun and men for darker reasons ffs:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    CDfm wrote: »
    A Weird World View in the Article - Women watch for fun and men for darker reasons ffs:confused:

    i think your right here tbh. I think the author of that article is reading a bit much into her experiences. I'm sure if she went around and spoke to every woman at the Chippendales show she'd also find lonely or predatory women, same as in a lap dancing club.

    Personally I've not a bother with either porn or strippers. I suppose my attitude to strippers is that it's a bit of a laugh, don't take it too seriously. At the end of the day, I like boobs......a lot. So if I can have a beer, give someone a few quid and she'll get them out, thats all it is.

    Porn while useful, is nothing more than a fantasy, a picture on a screen. I've heard of people getting a bit wrapped up in it, but i suppose like pretty much anything, that can happen. For the vast majority of people, it's a dip in, crack one out, and turn it off kinda thing.

    Exploitation can happen in all walks of life. Certainly, things like porn or lapdancing are open to abuse and exploitative practices, but I don't think its right to say that all porn/;apdancing is so. I've known a few girls who danced, they did it for the money. They made good wages and were happy enough doing it. They needed cash, they got it, they liked it, they did it a bit more and then they stopped. In that case, whose getting exploited? I'd suggest its the blokes paying for it.......

    The darker side of the industry is when you hear about girls getting roped into things, trafficing of girls is still out there, even with the EU etc clamping down. Stories of passports and ID being taken from girls to prevent them leaving are also around, though less common than before. Porn can also lead to this kind of thing, within that industry, huge strides have been made to cut this sort of thing out but it appears there is a still a ways to go. Again, I don't think you could say that all porn actors are being exploited, some genuinely enjoy/like/want to do what they are doing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Gillo


    Personally, I don't really like them, I've been a few times (not for a very long time now) and to be honest wasn't impressed with the overall experience. You go in generally drunk and pay some woman to stick her tits in your face and leave wanting a hell of a lot more. As a friend of mine put it whats the point in paying for something like that when I can get a hell of a lot more for free in most nightclubs.
    I also found the falseness of most the the dancers pretty annoying (in fairness they are there to get your money so I'm not begrudging them)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Woohoo - Mystik Monkey to post a list of ethical venues.:cool:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    PM sent ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    ... I don't like them... I've only been once, as part of a work Christmas do many years ago. I found it very dull, somewhat bleak and depressing... but I paid for a full on nekid lap dance just for the heck of it, and just so that I could say I'd done it (and to get my score another point lower on the old Purity Test).
    And I must say... it was bloody great. sure you can't touch... sure it's not going anywhere and you leave titillated and nothing comes of it... but before going in I was feeling really down and had pretty much lost interest in sex, my drive had bottomed out totally. It really picked me up and got me going again... sure it leaves you a little frustrated but vitalised! and that's better that then numb.

    That said now that I've done it once I don't think I'd do it again, the rest of the place itself was somewhat depressing or maybe just boring... which was what made it depressing. I don't know... I think given the choice I'd rather watch the young wans having fun dancing in a regular night club, with all their clothes on (even though they would probably ignore any sort of advance that I might make), rather than bored looking topless women grinding against a poll watching me, with bored dead eyes, like a hawk to see if I'd pay them more for a private dance.
    Hey maybe some strip clubs are more fun than that... *shrug*


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty




    The darker side of the (sex) industries is when you hear about girls getting roped into things, trafficking of girls is still out there, even with the EU etc clamping down. Stories of passports and ID being taken from girls to prevent them leaving are also around, though less common than before. Porn can also lead to this kind of thing, within that industry, huge strides have been made to cut this sort of thing out but it appears there is a still a ways to go. Again, I don't think you could say that all porn actors are being exploited, some genuinely enjoy/like/want to do what they are doing.

    I think the human trafficking thing is blown a bit too out of proportion in all areas of sex workers whether they're stripping, ridin' on camera or ridin in private for money. TV3 had this sleazy "expose" on escorting/prostitution and they featured a well known Irish "Escorting" website and talking about how horrible it is and the exploitation and all this. Well, take a look at the site and the women seem to know exactly what they're doing and there's even a "community" there with coercion being highly frowned upon.

    Also, I think amateur internet porn has changed the landscape as it where. It's no longer Linda Lovelace saying 20years later how she was drugged. There actually seems to be women that like sex in front of a camera.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    That it is more open is a good thing. I know one girl who danced for a while and it was a pure money earning thing. A nice person and I never saw her work.

    Decriminalising lapdancing and the entertainment side has been good especially in Ireland.

    Where you get criminals you will get crime though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    i tend not to believe anything I see on TV3 as a rule, so I agree there is an element of sensationalism there. That doesn't disguise the fact that it goes on. It's only fairly recently that the darker side of things has been clamped down on properly, especially when it comes to prostitution. Without dragging things OT, there is still a lot fo pimping and bullying going on, unwitting clients are helping to fuel this.

    I think CDfm is right in that where an act is illegal,but still goes on, you'll get a criminal element. These are not nice poeple in general, so think nothing of a quick slap to keep someone down.

    Since lapdance clubs have become more mainstream, that kind of thing is hopefully in the past, but it wasn't that long ago that such places were used as fronts to launder money through etc by criminal elements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 irishbambi


    I dont believe women when they say they watch porn, purely cause women arent as visual as men, and it takes alot moe then a crappy porno to do it. women would be moe turned on by a book id say, then watching porn made by men, which treat women like dirt, and focus on the blokes pleasure, not the females. I peronally think grils say it to apear ....i dunno, wild:eek:

    I personally hate porn, to bits. but iv no problem with prostiution. I think porn is a leading root to peadophiles, and rapists. It provides arousal, thats it, not stimulaton, which prostitution does. I think it recks relationships, well if your anything like me. If a bloke is happy in a relationship why feel the need to look other women having sex, or pornograpghic picures?I hate the way in society its so accepted that men watch porn. the fact that there male isint excuse enough. Most infamous serial killers and pyschopaths had extremem amounts of pronos, pictures, amongst other things in their homes when raided, Anyone who tries to deny that porn isint linked to killers and sex abusers is kidding themselves ( thats not t say every bloke who watches porn is a murderer) . I just see how many problems it creates, And wonder why its still around, worse then ever nowadays, solely for the mere purpose of self gratification?


    I see prostitution as women taking advantage of men in the sense that men (not all) are so desprete for sex thatd theyd pay for it. Its the women always portrayed as the bad ones, never the men who use the prostitutes, which baffles me, but at least men get what they want there, and dont go off looking for smeone to act out their fantasies, or scenarioes, which pornos give.


    Porn has just become worse and worse. Went from people having sex in the films, to gang bang films, to bondage films, to child pornograpghy, to rape-then-murder pornos, or snuffs, or fake snuffs. It may have once just been something to provide stimulation but nowadays its progressed to something way worse then what it was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    irishbambi wrote: »

    I think porn is a leading root to peadophiles, and rapists.

    Most infamous serial killers and pyschopaths had extremem amounts of pronos, pictures, amongst other things in their homes when raided,

    Anyone who tries to deny that porn isint linked to killers and sex abusers is kidding themselves

    Ok,first things first.

    Why do you think that porn is a leading cause of peadophilia and rape?

    Did the priests that committed child sex abuse in the various institutions throughout Ireland have access to vast quantities of porn?

    I hate to break it to you,but rape and child sex abuse has existed as long as people have existed,its as simple as that.

    Could you post some links to these facts that infamous serial killers had large amounts of porn in their homes.There may have been a couple (I challange you to prove this claim) but did Jack the Ripper,Albert Fish,Ed Gein or Peter Suthcliffe have huge porn collections?

    Emmm,no.
    Like rape,pyschopaths and murderers have existed since the dawn of time.
    irishbambi wrote: »


    Porn has just become worse and worse. Went from people having sex in the films, to gang bang films, to bondage films, to child pornograpghy, to rape-then-murder pornos, or snuffs, or fake snuffs. It may have once just been something to provide stimulation but nowadays its progressed to something way worse then what it was.

    I agree there is some horrendous stuff out there if you want to look for it,however the vast majority of porn is harmless sex between consenting adults.Even bondage porn,while definitly not my cup of tea at all,is by and large produced in as safe an environment as is possible for the people involved.

    Im not being flippant here but you obviously know nothing about the porn industry in general except from what you have read in sensationalist rags like the Daily Mail.

    If you hate porn,thats perfectly acceptable,some people do,but to paint people that view porn as some kind of deviants that are one step away from being a murderer or a rapist is the height of naiveity,it really is.

    Good day to you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I don't know what point you are trying to make irishbambi.

    It doesn't look to me that the porn industry is coercive and the actresses in porn movies especially in the USA seem to be highly organised.

    Ola Ray the romantic interest in Michael Jacksons Thriller Video was a Playboy Centrefold and appeared in a number of mainstream movies.

    Prostitution-I dont know and have no experience of itand no interest in it but the greatest advocates for decriminalising it and legalising it seem to be prostitutes themselves. So why not give them a voice and do what they want ?

    As for snuff movies and bondage etc - I have never seen any and I wonder how much of this stuff is a myth. Who watches this stuff ? With the amount of publicity it gets and investigation the number of prosectutions have been small.


  • Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭sparkthatbled


    Strip clubs are a funny thing. I've never been to one and I can't say i'm not curious about what they're like but i don't think i'd like to give a minimum of a quarter of my weekly wage to find out. I imagine them to be a pressured atmosphere, as in, i don't imagine you could buy a drink and sit back and relax without dancers, waitresses, whatever, putting pressure on you to spend more money. I think i'd come out of there feeling a bit robbed. Maybe i'm wrong about that. Anyway, i have no need for them.

    Speaking of which, i read a stark warning some time ago that might be of interest. It was about these places in London that are known as Clip-Joints. Mostly they operate in the Soho area and they set themselves up as Strip clubs but there is a catch... They are best described by Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_joints
    The article i read commented that the girls in the Clip joints were very good at judging how much money someone was carrying and usually the visit ends with the furious customer refusing to pay all the hidden (small print, very very small print) charges, when all of a sudden, some very large men appear out of nowhere. The biggest problem is that so many customers are married or involved that they are unwilling to file an official complaint. I also read that a minority of misguided feminists champion these places as "Women getting their own back" which is clearly utter nonsense.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Has the clip joint scam ever been used in Ireland- (I assume the prayer group outside Stringfellows were not giving VIP tickets to anywhere)?


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