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Why do people lose faith?

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Comments

  • #32
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Well if you look at it in the same way as for the positive eternity. "No eye has seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

    The way this verse is commonly used is one of my pet hates. If you are going to quote 1 Corinthians 2:9 then I suggest you carry on and include the remainder of the sentence in verse 10: "but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit."

    Taken in context this is not saying that eternity is some kind of mystery that we can't understand. Quite the opposite. It is saying that with the help of the Holy Spirit we can have a good idea of what eternity will be like.


  • #33
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    PDN wrote: »
    I reached a point where a lot of the stuff I had been told as a kid didn't really make sense anymore - so I started looking at things more rationally, thinking for myself, and weighing up the evidence.
    This sounds exactly like my experience. That is why I am an atheist now. Funny how two people weighing up the same evidence can come to completely polar opposite conclusions. Still, I am glad it helped you sort out your life.

    MrP


  • #34
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    PDN wrote: »
    The way this verse is commonly used is one of my pet hates. If you are going to quote 1 Corinthians 2:9 then I suggest you carry on and include the remainder of the sentence in verse 10: "but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit."

    Taken in context this is not saying that eternity is some kind of mystery that we can't understand. Quite the opposite. It is saying that with the help of the Holy Spirit we can have a good idea of what eternity will be like.

    Hey P, chill out, its me :D Quite true and thanks for pointing it out but the reason I used this verse was to make the point that just like Heaven is hard to conceive of so too is Hell.


  • #35
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    What price?

    Following the doctrine of a religion that I feel is often immoral and wrong.

    For example, the teaching on homosexuality. Homosexuality is not wrong. In fact it can be wonderful, as some of my gay friends who are very much in love and very happy, demonstrate. I can pick plenty of other examples, but you all follow my posts so I imagine you all know my objections to your religion.

    If you god does exist, and he demands I follow his teachings, I wouldn't. Following something that I believe is immoral and wrong is not worth what is on offer.

    Considering though that I am personally far more scared of the oblivion that most likely awaits me than your religion's concept of hell, it seems like an even easier choice.

    But then again we could be both wrong, and we are going to be reincarnated as rabbits ...
    kelly1 wrote: »
    True happiness is in doing God's will.
    Possibly. But true happiness at the cost of ones beliefs in right and wrong is again too high a price to pay. I would rather be miserible.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Why do you keep thinking in physical terms? Can you not even try to imagine a spiritual existence?

    The words you are using to describe hell are descriptions of physical things (fire, lakes etc etc).

    So I would ask why does your religion describe hell in physical terms?

    If you are trying to explain to me what hell is like and you use descriptions with physical terms there is little point giving out that I'm not imagining a "spiritual existence", what ever that is supposed to be.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Obviously the fire described in scripture isn't the kind of fire found in nature because natural fire cannot have any effect on a soul. Spiritual fire to me means anger, oppressive claustrophia, severe discomfort, torment etc.
    Why does it mean that to you? Are you just picking not very nice feelings and assuming the this is what they mean? could you not just pick another set of words that are different?

    And where does the lake come into it?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    But the loss of God is the main torment, never mind the "fire".
    Well I don't have God at the moment, and I'm doing ok.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Having said that I accept that it would not be beyond God's power to produce some kind of spiritual fire that we can't imagine.

    Would he call it "fire" though? Sure if we can't imagine it then it is nothing like anything we have known, and as such there wouldn't be a word to describe it.

    Fire is fire. These words mean something. It is a word describing a known concept. Saying that spiritual fire is nothing like fire is a bit silly. If it is nothing like fire why use the word in the first place?


  • #36
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,224 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Considering though that I am personally far more scared of the oblivion that most likely awaits me than your religion's concept of hell, it seems like an even easier choice.
    Whats so scary about oblivion? There is literally nothing to be afraid of.
    I think Immortality is scarier than oblivion. There is no escape and it will never end. I think an eternity in 'heaven' worshiping god sounds just as horrific as an eternity in hell being burned in a lake of fire.
    But then again we could be both wrong, and we are going to be reincarnated as rabbits ...
    At least re-incarnation is something new. Without new experiences (or at the very least, the possibility of new experiences), 'life' is totally pointless.


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  • #37
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    God does not want coerced love and worship. He wants it freely given or not at all.
    But you're in big trouble if you don't love or worship him...
    And where did you get the notion that God is loving and merciful?
    Devout christians.


  • #38
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    kelly1 wrote: »
    http://www.divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

    The thing is, although there are alot of reports of Christians having visits with God or in hell, there are reports from non-Christians as well. Non-religious people having near death experiences and meeting loved ones somewhere nice, rememberances of past lives and people of other faiths meeting their religious leaders. Maybe these people are all just hallucinating whatever it is they believe in?


  • #39
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,224 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    NEWS Flash: In Heaven God is the top dude. If you don't want to bow to Him then that's your business. Doesn't change anything, all that's happening is you just don't like that fact.



    He died for you.



    When you're drowning and you know that you are going to die, and someone at risk to themselves jumps in and rescues you, you don't have to talk yourself into liking that person when he/she brings you to the shore. When all the dust of tradition and BS is blown off the essence of what Christianity is only then can one have an informed opinion on it. God does not want coerced love and worship. He wants it freely given or not at all. When you truly recognise what Christ did for us only then can the proper response come. God hates imitation Christianity, and the world is rife with it. Which (believe it or not) is why you have the opinion you have of it. Not your fault, just too many bad Christian Leaders and Teachers in the world.



    Did you ever stop to think how we got our human traits? Why do you automatically assume that they are human? The Word states that God made us in His image? Maybe that included some of His traits? So assuming they are His traits to begin with, then why can’t He retain them?

    You say that you much rather the loving, merciful notion of God rather than my Old Testament, fire and brimstone guy. Well for one He’s not ‘my’ Old Testament guy. And there is plenty of goodness and mercy dispensed in the Old Testament despite what some selective readers might think. And where did you get the notion that God is loving and merciful? New Testament? Well if you read the record, Jesus talks more about Hell and damnation than He does about Heaven.
    This is one of the most contradictory posts I have read anywhere in a long time.

    God is 'wonderful' even though hes not loving or merciful. (what's the opposite of loving and merciful?? Vengeful and hate filled (or at best, ambivalent).
    Are these things wonderful qualities? What separates the vengeful and hate filled god with Satan?

    Didn't Jesus teach that forgiveness is a virtue? How can forgiveness be reconciled with vengefulness. they're the exact opposite. Is god not virtuous?

    In the Lords prayer, Jesus said 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'

    So god demands that we forgive others and implies that he will forgive us, but you're saying he's not merciful?

    That means he is dishonest or misleading, and if that is true, then how can you trust anything he says.
    If even God is capable of even one single lie or deception, then nothing can be trusted.


  • #40
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Akrasia wrote: »
    This is one of the most contradictory posts I have read anywhere in a long time.

    God is 'wonderful' even though hes not loving or merciful. (what's the opposite of loving and merciful?? Vengeful and hate filled (or at best, ambivalent).
    Are these things wonderful qualities? What separates the vengeful and hate filled god with Satan?

    Didn't Jesus teach that forgiveness is a virtue? How can forgiveness be reconciled with vengefulness. they're the exact opposite. Is god not virtuous?

    In the Lords prayer, Jesus said 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'

    So god demands that we forgive others and implies that he will forgive us, but you're saying he's not merciful?

    That means he is dishonest or misleading, and if that is true, then how can you trust anything he says.
    If even God is capable of even one single lie or deception, then nothing can be trusted.

    How can I argue with someone who says that I said things that I didn't say? Please re-read my post and then read your response then read mine again then read your response and you'll know what I'm talking about, or at least you should.

    And where did I say: "God is 'wonderful' even though hes not loving or merciful."?

    God can be whatever He damn well wants to be, that's the point. If He exists at all He can be meaner than anybody if He so chooses, including Satan. But He has guaranteed in His Word to give eternal life to those who will trust Him, so my advice would be to go with that. If you do not like ultimatums like this then SO WHAT. It doesn't matter what you like, that is also the point. If God exists then your opinion is as important to Him as a fart in the wind. Are you getting the point yet? If He exists at all then He’s not up there looking for friends or taking votes to see if His methods meet with your approval. You either get with His program or you’re dead. There is no other God revealed in scripture except this one. And He has proven, acted out and openly shown His love for us in what He wrought through Christ. The ball is in your court, you reject it if you want to. God has done His part.


  • #41
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Dudess wrote: »
    But you're in big trouble if you don't love or worship him...

    Well put it this way, if you were God would you choose to spend all eternity with people who you knew would forever put you on trial over your methods and dealings with them instead of trusting you? "Doth the clay talk back to the Potter saying, what makest thou?"

    If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?


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  • #42
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Well put it this way, if you were God would you choose to spend all eternity with people who you knew would forever put you on trial over your methods and dealings with them instead of trusting you? "Doth the clay talk back to the Potter saying, what makest thou?"

    If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?
    Eternity is a long time to be surrounded by sycophants.

    MrP


  • #43
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?

    The question you should be asking is if you were God would you punish people you know didn't believe you existed with eternal torture?

    I think most people would say no.


  • #44
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    anyone think of any possible crime for which ETERNAL suffering could possibly be a fair punishment?

    Simply, mathematically, it doesnt add up: There's nothing you could do that would be so bad it would deserve eternity in hell.

    Even Hitler doesnt deserve that.

    Given that according to Christian doctrine, people go to hell for far less than committing mass genocide, how can you possibly square that with any idea of a loving God?


  • #45
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    RealEstateKing wrote: »
    anyone think of any possible crime for which ETERNAL suffering could possibly be a fair punishment?

    My understanding is as follows -

    Sinning against God is a crime worthy of eternal punishment. The logic is that God is eternal and infinitely perfect and good, therefore disobeying one of his commandments (ie "sinning") is infinitely bad. I'm not sure exactly what infinitely bad means, but it matches the eternal infinite part of God.

    It doesn't matter which one you disobey, disobeying one or all of them is just the same. So we are all heading to hell (since everyone sins and it is impossible for someone to never sin. Jesus is the only human to never have sin). God can forgive us if we ask for it and repent and apologies for the sin we have committed and probably will commit. Otherwise we are going to hell because we have disobeyed God, without seeking forgiveness, which is infinitely bad.

    No doubt I've go some of the details wrong and ten rabid Christians will now point out all the ways I'm distorting and perverting their religion, so apologies in advance :pac:


  • #46
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    The logic is that God is eternal and infinitely perfect and good,

    Well self-evidently if he sends people to eternal punishment he is obviously not 'good'.

    Surely the hell part is considered a metaphor by most Christians nowadays (at least on this side of the pond)? Is that true?

    I mean it's obvious that it was an idea that was invented in the days when most people were illiterate, so a simple moral imperative had to be invented, rather than having to tortuously explain why doing certain things was bad:

    You dont say to an illiterate farmer in the 8th Century: "Dont be unfaithful to your wife, because ultimately infidelity will lead to a breakdown of intimicy which will, over time, destroy your marriage."

    You say : "God says it's bad, you'll go to hell."


  • #47
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,224 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Well put it this way, if you were God would you choose to spend all eternity with people who you knew would forever put you on trial over your methods and dealings with them instead of trusting you? "Doth the clay talk back to the Potter saying, what makest thou?" [/quote[
    If I was god, I would be more than capable of figuring out a way of avoiding the people I didn't like without having cast them into a lake of fire.
    If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?
    I don't hate god, I don't believe he exists. If I were god I wouldn't be so petty as to persecute people who have an incorrect but otherwise harmless belief for all eternity.

    The logic that god is justified in torturing people who don't believe in him is just the same as the logic that Muslims are justified kill people who don't believe in their version of Allah.


  • #48
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,224 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    RealEstateKing wrote: »

    You dont say to an illiterate farmer in the 8th Century: "Dont be unfaithful to your wife, because ultimately infidelity will lead to a breakdown of intimicy which will, over time, destroy your marriage."

    Why not? I think its a much much better argument to say 'Don't cheat on your wife because the harm you cause to your wife will destroy your marriage' than to say 'Don't cheat on your wife because if you do an invisible man will strike you down after you die'


    The invisible man idea is what kept people stupid and superstitious for so long instead of encouraging people to contemplate human nature and to come to a empathetic and loving moral philosophy. (The idea that we can only live in a caring society if we are caring ourselves, rather than we can only live in a caring society if everyone agrees to worship a particular invisible man)


  • #49
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    Of course morality is better when it's derived from mature discussion about ethics.

    However the world's major religions developed in a world in which at least 80-90% of people were illiterate. So religion has often been intellectually scaleable.

    Ask a peasant farmer in Bolivia about his understanding of Christianity and much of it will be simplistic, naturalistic belief in bogeymen and evil spirits. Ask a Jesuit in Rome and you'll get a much more nuanced explanation.

    It has to be that way, otherwise it would be too complicated for the proles and too simplistic for intellectuals.


  • #50
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    RealEstateKing wrote: »
    Well self-evidently if he sends people to eternal punishment he is obviously not 'good'.

    Welcome to the wonderful cyclical world of debating the morality of the Christian God.

    The response you would no doubt receive is that you are not in a position to judge if sending people to eternal punishment is obviously "not good". Christians have already determined that God is perfect and good (how they do that is an interesting question), he would not do bad.

    You are a wicked sinner, just looking out for yourself, so of course you will say it is bad, just as the rapist says it is bad to be locked up in prison. You say it is bad because you want to blame God for your own wickedness.

    God has decided it is good, and he is the ultimate authority to decide what is good or not good. Since he would not do bad it must therefore be a good, just, thing to do, even if we don't see it that way.

    You can have a lot of interesting times picking out all the logical flaws in the above. But then you only do that because you are wicked :pac:
    RealEstateKing wrote: »
    Surely the hell part is considered a metaphor by most Christians nowadays (at least on this side of the pond)? Is that true?

    Depends on who you ask. Sometimes the response is that hell is simply a place absent of God. Others believe it is a place of active torture and suffering.


  • #51
    Singer73
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Singer73


    Surely religion is a geographical accident of birth? If I was born in a muslim country, it is more than likely I would choose Islam. Likewise in Christian countries.
    I was born on the television, so I choose Paul Daniels - his magic is so much more accessible...


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  • #52
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    The one thing that all cultish beleifs have in common is the idea of "False-consciousness" - if you dont beleive in this, it is because you are under the grip of a false way of thinking, that only beleiving in this can take away.

    The best analogy would be the fashionable conceptual art that clutters up the Tate Gallery: Absolutely everybody outside the art world thinks it's nonsense, but very few within it will admit it, because they would be accused of being hopelessly unhip and conservative.

    Andf here's the important part: It is precisley becuase conceptual art is meaningless and self-contradictoy that they can do this. Becuase if it's essentially meaningless you can always accuse it's detractors of simply not understanding it properly.


  • #53
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,224 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Welcome to the wonderful cyclical world of debating the morality of the Christian God.

    The response you would no doubt receive is that you are not in a position to judge if sending people to eternal punishment is obviously "not good". Christians have already determined that God is perfect and good (how they do that is an interesting question), he would not do bad.

    You are a wicked sinner, just looking out for yourself, so of course you will say it is bad, just as the rapist says it is bad to be locked up in prison. You say it is bad because you want to blame God for your own wickedness.

    God has decided it is good, and he is the ultimate authority to decide what is good or not good. Since he would not do bad it must therefore be a good, just, thing to do, even if we don't see it that way.

    You can have a lot of interesting times picking out all the logical flaws in the above. But then you only do that because you are wicked :pac:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU
    you're a witch.


  • #54
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Wicknight wrote: »
    My understanding is as follows -

    Sinning against God is a crime worthy of eternal punishment. The logic is that God is eternal and infinitely perfect and good, therefore disobeying one of his commandments (ie "sinning") is infinitely bad. I'm not sure exactly what infinitely bad means, but it matches the eternal infinite part of God.

    It doesn't matter which one you disobey, disobeying one or all of them is just the same. So we are all heading to hell (since everyone sins and it is impossible for someone to never sin. Jesus is the only human to never have sin). God can forgive us if we ask for it and repent and apologies for the sin we have committed and probably will commit. Otherwise we are going to hell because we have disobeyed God, without seeking forgiveness, which is infinitely bad.

    No doubt I've go some of the details wrong and ten rabid Christians will now point out all the ways I'm distorting and perverting their religion, so apologies in advance :pac:

    No, that is pretty accurate. What you did fail to mention however is that all these sins that everybody commits were put on Christ so they have been removed. What God is primarily concerned with now is your faith in His Word of promise. Sin is not an issue with Him anymore as it was dealt with in full by Christ on Calvary. Hence the name New Testament or New Covenant or in modern languages New Contract with man. The Old Contract (The Law) (which everyone falls short of in one way or another) has been put away. Faith is the contract now. Will we still sin according to the Law? Yes we still fall short of that standard but that is not what God is measuring us by anymore. He knows and always knew that He could not get perfection according to the Law. The reason it was given was to show man that He could not keep it. The only way we can be perfect is to get His spirit in us and that is only one by faith in His Word not by perfect acts of obedience to the Old Law. If you miss that once then that is it. A miss is a good as a mile. Those who want to be judge by this standard will be. They will be found wanting and loose out on life. That Contract states that those who do them will live in them. Nobody has done them, and that is why we all die eventually. But Christ did them and instead of taking the reward as was the promise, He took death as was apportioned to those who don’t keep it. In doing this He nullified the curse against us by letting it fall on Him in our stead. Those now with faith in Him will live forever even though they too fall short of the perfect standard of the Old Contract. But faith in God brings His spirit in us which will lead us to life eternal. Those who preach that you must also keep the law in order to have standing with God are preaching a false Gospel which is no Gospel at all as Paul says to the Galatians. Sola fide!


  • #55
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    and the 70 odd per cent of humanity that didnt grow up Christian, what happens to them?

    And the millions of souls who passed away while Christ was still just a twinkle in his dad's eye, what about them?


  • #56
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    RealEstateKing wrote: »
    and the 70 odd per cent of humanity that didnt grow up Christian, what happens to them?

    And the millions of souls who passed away while Christ was still just a twinkle in his dad's eye, what about them?

    Christians do not believe that what you grow up as determines your choices. Some of the greatest growth in Christianity today is in China (where people grew up as atheists) and Indonesia (where people grew up as Muslims).

    The Christian belief is that we all sin and commit evil and as such deserve hell. Accepting the Gospel of Christ by faith can save us from hell, just as a drowning man grabs a lifebelt. Christians do not agree among ourselves as to what happens to everyone who never had the chance to grab this lifebelt. Some believe they will all go to hell. Others believe that God will judge each person righteously according to the light they have received, and in the end we don't really know what that judgment will be.

    My own opinion, which by no means represents all Christians, is that God is obligated to save nobody. Even if no-one had a chance to accept the Gospel then God would still be righteous because we would be receiving the consequences of our own evil choices. So, the fact that anyone is saved at all is amazing grace and mercy. I would not like to set a limit on how far God's mercy can extend. The Bible does tells us that those who wilfully reject the Gospel will go to hell - but beyond that we move into the realm of speculation.


  • #57
    aggresso
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭aggresso


    People don't lose faith. They stop believing. It's not a matter of losing anything.


  • #58
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    No, that is pretty accurate. What you did fail to mention however is that all these sins that everybody commits were put on Christ so they have been removed.

    Well technically they haven't been removed, we all are supposed to still sin.

    What was removed was the requirement of God to punish these sins in the name of holy justice. God punished his son instead of us, punished him for all of our sins that had been committed and will be committed by us.

    This allowed God to offer us salvation if he wished without him doing so contradicting his standards of justice. (you know I think that is illogical nonsense, but that is another issue :D)

    The problem is where hell fits into that. If hell is not a punishment for sin what is it a punishment for? Simply choosing not to seek this "perfect" existence with God?

    That makes God seem even worse.


  • #59
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The problem is where hell fits into that. If hell is not a punishment for sin what is it a punishment for? Simply choosing not to seek this "perfect" existence with God?

    That makes God seem even worse.

    Hell is a punishment for sin. The offer of a free pardon is indeed made to us all, but does require our acceptance. If anyone rejects the offer and insists on paying for their sin themselves then God will not drag them into heaven while they kick and scream, "I don't want to go."

    A very simple illustration (somewhat imperfect, as all illustrations are if you force the details sufficiently) of this would be if I send you a bankers draft. As soon as I purchase the draft the amount is debited from my account, but it only benefits you if you actually present the draft for payment.


  • #60
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    And where did you get the notion that God is loving and merciful? New Testament? Well if you read the record, Jesus talks more about Hell and damnation than He does about Heaven.
    SW, I really think you're misrepresenting God there.
    Deuteronomy 7:9 And thou shalt know that the Lord thy God, he is a strong and faithful God, keeping his covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments, unto a thousand generations:

    Ecclesiasticus 2:13 For God is compassionate and merciful, and will forgive sins in the day of tribulation: and he is a protector to all that seek him in truth.

    God is infinitely merciful to those who repent and seek forgiveness. There is no sin that cannot be forgiven where mercy is sought.


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  • #61
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Hell is a punishment for sin. The offer of a free pardon is indeed made to us all, but does require our acceptance. If anyone rejects the offer and insists on paying for their sin themselves then God will not drag them into heaven while they kick and scream, "I don't want to go."

    No one is talking about dragging anyone to heaven. I wouldn't want to go to heaven anyway.

    The issue is why the only alternative to that is to be dragged kicking and screaming to a place of eternal torture and suffering and lakes of fire.

    If Jesus has already paid the debt of sin for all of humanity, why are people still being made to pay of that debt in hell?

    Why would God continue to punish people in hell if the punishment has already been taken by Jesus. How does it serve justice to punish twice?


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