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Laws Question? Ask here!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭daniels.ducks


    Was playing football yesterday and to my surprise calling for the ball when the opposition has it is a bookable offence. Is it the same in rugby? Pretty sure I do it all the time when tracking back

    Football as in GAA or football as in soccer?


  • Administrators Posts: 53,125 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Football as in GAA or football as in soccer?
    It's against the rules in soccer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    Was playing football yesterday and to my surprise calling for the ball when the opposition has it is a bookable offence. Is it the same in rugby?
    It's not mentioned in law, which is not to say that a ref couldn't penalize it if he didn't like it, as per castie.
    castie wrote: »
    Unsportsman like conduct I believe would cover this.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,721 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i cant find any minimum dimension anywhere... i have read the official law here which is fine but does anyone know of (unwritten or otherwise) minimum dimensions of a pitch??

    surely its not allowed that the 22 can also be the 10 meter line ;)

    im trying to design in an extra pitch onto a clubs ground... im playing with a 60 x 90 pitch currently


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭rje66


    pitch 60m wide no prob.

    pitch 90m long = 45m from half way to try line, 10m+22m= 32m accounted for,
    so space between 10m and 22m is 13m, no problem there.
    BUT.......

    if your 90m has to include dead ball area then allow appox 3m for it, thus area between 22m and 10m is 10m no prob

    also rem. you will need a strip along both touch lines of at least 3m for subs/spectators.

    cym's pitch in terenure is tight for space and there dosent seem to be any probs. there


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  • Subscribers Posts: 40,721 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thanks rje66

    i hadnt included a dead ball area in that 90 m, i actually had allowed 10 m but looking at that now it may be too generous.... possibly 5 is ok?

    the spectators areas work ok...

    whats the breaking point?
    is less than 10 m between the 10 and the 22 not acceptable?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    i cant find any minimum dimension anywhere... i have read the official law here which is fine but does anyone know of (unwritten or otherwise) minimum dimensions of a pitch??

    surely its not allowed that the 22 can also be the 10 meter line ;)

    im trying to design in an extra pitch onto a clubs ground... im playing with a 60 x 90 pitch currently
    1.2 REQUIRED DIMENSIONS FOR THE PLAYING
    ENCLOSURE
    (a) Dimensions. The field of play does not exceed 100 metres in
    length and 70 metres in width. Each in-goal does not exceed 22
    metres in length and 70 metres in width.
    (b) The length and breadth of the playing area are to be as near as
    possible to the dimensions indicated
    . All the areas are rectangular.
    (c) The distance from the goal line to the dead ball line should be not
    less than 10 metres where practicable.

    (The emphasis in the above quote from the Laws is mine)

    I would suggest that 5m would be the smallest 'practicable' depth of the in-goal area. What level of rugby is to be played on this pitch? While you might get away with 90x60m for juvenile rugby, as an adult I wouldn't have liked to play on such a small pitch.

    Some years ago, England were putting together a proposal to host the RWC (the 2007 one, I think), and they were planning a 16-team main competition with a second parallel competition for 2nd/3rd tier nations*. Their plan was to use soccer grounds to host this competition. One of the reasons the bid failed, IIRC, was that the playing enclosures in most English soccer grounds are only ~100m long, and it was deemed that this was too short.




    * I think the idea for this stemmed from the Rugby League World Cup in 1995, which had both a main World Cup and also what they called the 'Emerging Nations World Cup' (Ireland were beaten in the final of this competition by the Cook Islands, if anyone's interested)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭rje66


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    thanks rje66

    i hadnt included a dead ball area in that 90 m, i actually had allowed 10 m but looking at that now it may be too generous.... possibly 5 is ok?

    the spectators areas work ok...

    whats the breaking point?
    is less than 10 m between the 10 and the 22 not acceptable?

    wouldnt see any problem with an area between 22 and 10m being around 10m or less.
    If its junior rugby then def no problem with a small pitch, for adults still no problem, they might have a bit of a moan but will be glad to have somewhere to play.
    certainly as a ref i wouldnt see any probs. once the area is safe, eg if dead ball is 3m then at 3.1m i wouldnt like to see a wall or drain etc

    Rem its all about getting people out playing the game they love, a slightly smaller pitch shouldnt stop this, besides they will all think they are really fit:):)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭Downtime


    The in goal should not be less than 10m where practicable. 5m is very short.


  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭armchaircoach


    The IRB website has full details on required pitch dimensions.

    5 meters is very short for a dead-ball area. That's the kind of thing you see in Premiership rugby (look at Bath) and guys come very close to sliding dead/running into hoardings every time a try is scored.

    It also very much limits the tactics that an attacking team can use, for instance, it is almost impossible to grubber/chip the ball ahead into the dead-ball and have your guys chase for it.

    Same applies to a pitch that is less than 70m wide, you end up constraining how your team trains and plays, and run the risk of other teams running rings around you when you have to play on a more spacious pitch that the team is not used to.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭rje66


    sydthebeat wrote: »

    im trying to design in an extra pitch onto a clubs ground... im playing with a 60 x 90 pitch currently

    we are tight for space, so are you saying no pitch because the LOTG state some recommended dimensions ?


    ''if you build it they will come''


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,721 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    rje66 wrote: »
    we are tight for space, so are you saying no pitch because the LOTG state some recommended dimensions ?


    ''if you build it they will come''

    its ok, no matter what way i locate them theres no way of getting a 3rd full size pitch in on the existing land.

    the current pitches (2) are both 100 x 70 with 10 m dead ball areas.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    its ok, no matter what way i locate them theres no way of getting a 3rd full size pitch in on the existing land.

    Try some non-Euclidean geometry!


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Common deadball zones...simplies :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Is there a law preventing a drop goal being scored from a restart kick?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Is there a law preventing a drop goal being scored from a restart kick?

    Yes, though I don't remember the specifics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Team A are attacking and are camped on team Bs line under the posts.

    the offside line is the the goal line.

    Can team B position a man up against the goal post as in in front of the posts in order to prevent a try being scored by touching the bottom of the posts?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭rje66


    in a word no, he is now in the field of play and not in in goal anymore.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 34,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney




    Was Matanavou not hard done by here? He picks up a loose ball and gets carded for offside. Should he have run around the back of the tackled player and climbed back over to get the ball?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife




    Was Matanavou not hard done by here? He picks up a loose ball and gets carded for offside. Should he have run around the back of the tackled player and climbed back over to get the ball?

    IMO yellow was a good call, he was never onside and the ball was on the try line.
    If he wanted to play the ball he would have had to been behind the hind most foot.


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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Shelflife wrote: »
    IMO yellow was a good call, he was never onside and the ball was on the try line.
    If he wanted to play the ball he would have had to been behind the hind most foot.

    This is an interesting one.

    In my opinion the player has been held up in his attempt to ground the ball in goal. He then throws it back into play.

    Id of called a 5m scrum attacking team.
    Ignoring this he would of been blatantly offside and stopped an almost certain try so yellow worthy.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 34,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If you stop it on 40 seconds, the ball is out of the ruck (if it's even a ruck beyond the try-line, I'm not sure about that?) The Castres full back has no control of the ball, which has slipped between his legs. The Toulouse defender tackles him and he attempts to play the ball on the ground. To me, it's either a loose ball, giving the Toulouse winger every right to play it or an infringement by the Castres 15 and ball to Toulouse.

    Matanavou must feel like he can do nothing right in the in-goal after his disastrous clearance attempt a while back led to a try and now this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett




    Was Matanavou not hard done by here? He picks up a loose ball and gets carded for offside. Should he have run around the back of the tackled player and climbed back over to get the ball?
    IMO White 15 and Black 12 formed a ruck in the field of play. At that instant, any Black player who is in front of the ruck (ie ahead of the goal line in this case) is offside. The ruck ends before Black 11 arrives but that doesn't matter; he can't take any part in the game until he gets himself behind the goal (offside) line.

    I wouldn't criticize without seeing a wider angle of how the other players are arriving, but based on the circumstances I'd be looking to see if I could award a PT. Any lesser punishment here is a let-off and rewards the offense. Black 12's angle of entry (re the gate) is also very suspect, but probably not a problem since he's entering through his goal area?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    Is there a law preventing a drop goal being scored from a restart kick?
    The definition of a dropped goal prevents it (emphasis mine):
    Dropped Goal. A player scores a dropped goal by kicking a goal from a drop kick in general play. The team awarded a free kick cannot score a dropped goal until the ball next becomes dead, or until an opponent has played or touched it, or has tackled the ball carrier. This restriction applies also to a scrum taken instead of a free kick.
    Since a restart is not a part of "general play", a dropped goal can't be scored.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 34,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    15W and 12B aren't bound at any stage with the ball between them as far as I can see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    15W and 12B aren't bound at any stage with the ball between them as far as I can see.
    On the fourth or fifth replay, I've seen what you mean. The ball squirts loose between 15W's legs just before 12B makes contact with him.

    It's an interesting example - given so much to process in such a short space of time, any number of things could be going through the ref's head. In the absence of a clear shout of "ruck, you're offside" or "no ruck, play on", it's hard to fault a player for grabbing the ball first and asking questions later.

    Should the ref be stating his position here, or keeping quiet and letting the tmo sort it all out? (I know, in general the ref is correct by default, but this situation has tmo written all over it).


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 34,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He went straight to the TMO, who advised him to give the penalty and yellow. It would be understandable if the ref made a split-second decision but the TMO should be making these calls correctly in high-profile matches.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Unsure of the intricacies of the situation, but for my mind a ruck hasn't been formed there.

    Absolutely cracking tackle from Clerc though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    But even if there is no ruck formed, the defending players would have to come through the gate or at least get behind the tackle line to put themselves onside??


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    But even if there is no ruck formed, the defending players would have to come through the gate or at least get behind the tackle line to put themselves onside??


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