Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc

Myrddin · 25-10-2012 10:02am

Zombrex wrote: »

Literally, since the Earth is moving at about 3000km a second through the universe. It has travelled trillions of km since humans first evolved (which raises another interesting point, when did humans "evolve" life after death). So are spirits effected by gravity? If not we have been despositing ghosts throughout the galaxy for thousands of years. If they are effected then how do they float?

Its almost as if someone just made all this up without thinking it through ...

Its actually moving much faster, it rotates at 1000mph, & orbits the sun at 60,000mph :eek: I hope spirits etc have some way of hanging on coz we're going pretty damn fast!

Thats all well & good, but then you look into the world of quantum theory, quantum entanglement etc...the universe seems for more 'connected' at its constituent levels...maybe in some ways, gravity is meaningless to pure energy, maybe motion is too? Who knows...tis mad

gillad · 26-10-2012 2:01pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Thats all well & good, but then you look into the world of quantum theory, quantum entanglement etc...the universe seems for more 'connected' at its constituent levels...maybe in some ways, gravity is meaningless to pure energy, maybe motion is too? Who knows...tis mad

The Quantum world allows for spirits/apparitions to exist because in this world(which is ours at a smaller level)particles pop in and out of our world/universe all the time.They can also be in an infinite amount of places at once which allows for parrallel universes to exist.
If you bring "the observer effect" into this....(here is a easy to understand link)...http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/science/observer_effect.htm

A conscious being in a parrallel universe will have a lot of possible outcomes so ghosts/apparitions may be these outcomes that have not yet manifested into a reality for them.....Some ghosts seem to be from the past and affect their future so we may also be affecting the futures right now and appearing as a ghost/apparition in a parrallel universe.
A ghost may also be some sort of conscious echo.

If you think about the past and future,they are just thoughts so realistically there is only "NOW" everything has existed in the "NOW"......This means that time does not exist which is hard to grasp but it fits in with parrallel universes because EVERYTHING is happening now in a limitless number of parrallel universes....sometimes they entangle and you get paranormal activity.....for some reason some of these conscious beings are strong enough to interact in our universe by moving objects and making noise....they scare us because we do not "observe" them as living beings but if you could "observe" them as living beings then maybe they would cease to be a ghost and may manifest into some stranger in your house throwing stuff around and banging on the walls which would also need an explaination:D

Zombrex · 26-10-2012 8:32pm

gillad wrote: »

The Quantum world allows for spirits/apparitions to exist because in this world(which is ours at a smaller level)particles pop in and out of our world/universe all the time.

How does that allow for spirits to exist?

gillad wrote: »

A conscious being in a parrallel universe will have a lot of possible outcomes so ghosts/apparitions may be these outcomes that have not yet manifested into a reality for them.....Some ghosts seem to be from the past and affect their future so we may also be affecting the futures right now and appearing as a ghost/apparition in a parrallel universe.
A ghost may also be some sort of conscious echo.

Organised by what exactly? The electrical signals of an alive human are organised by the physical brain. What organizes the electrical signals of a ghost given that you are proposing that they exist as individual unobserved particles?

gillad · 26-10-2012 11:15pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Organised by what exactly? The electrical signals of an alive human are organised by the physical brain. What organizes the electrical signals of a ghost given that you are proposing that they exist as individual unobserved particles?

The electical signals of an alive human and everything else are organised by the observer.

The electrics of the ghost follow the same rule but to explain it better they are being organised by the physical manifestation of that ghost which is in a parrallel universe.When the physical part of this conscious "observes" and chooses a path then all other paths disappear and the ghost vanishes.

It also may be as simple as parrallel universes,past and present entangling

Zombrex · 30-10-2012 11:45am

gillad wrote: »

The electical signals of an alive human and everything else are organised by the observer.

Come again? How do I organise the electrical signals in your brain by observing you?

The electrical signals in your brain are organised by the cells of your brain and the way the cells have laid out your nerve cells. The electrons travel along nerves, rather than flying off into empty space. If they didn't you couldn't function.

How would that work in a ghost that doesn't have a physical brain with physical cells and nerves to confine the travel of the electrons?

nagirrac · 30-10-2012 8:38pm

Zombrex wrote: »

The electrical signals in your brain are organised by the cells of your brain and the way the cells have laid out your nerve cells. The electrons travel along nerves, rather than flying off into empty space. If they didn't you couldn't function.

Electrical signals in the brain are not like electricity in a transistor circuit i.e. based on the movement of electrons. They are based on the movement of ions, a much slower process. Neurons use both electrical (ions) and chemical (neurotransmiters) to transfer information.

gillad · 30-10-2012 9:37pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Come again? How do I organise the electrical signals in your brain by observing you?

The electrical signals in your brain are organised by the cells of your brain and the way the cells have laid out your nerve cells. The electrons travel along nerves, rather than flying off into empty space. If they didn't you couldn't function.

How would that work in a ghost that doesn't have a physical brain with physical cells and nerves to confine the travel of the electrons?

I dont think we are on the same page at all.....Iv explained it already and it requires a very different way of thinking.
Lots of info if you google "quantum mechanics and ghosts"

Zombrex · 01-11-2012 12:41pm

nagirrac wrote: »

Electrical signals in the brain are not like electricity in a transistor circuit i.e. based on the movement of electrons. They are based on the movement of ions, a much slower process. Neurons use both electrical (ions) and chemical (neurotransmiters) to transfer information.

Thanks for the clarification. The point remains though, what organises these in a disembodied ghost?

Zombrex · 01-11-2012 12:46pm

gillad wrote: »

I dont think we are on the same page at all.....Iv explained it already and it requires a very different way of thinking.
Lots of info if you google "quantum mechanics and ghosts"

Quantum mechanics deals with individual particles. Individual particles, when in a vaccum and isolated from all other particles, act like this. When they interact with something the wave form collapses. Which is why it is possible a single electron might exist on the other side of the universe, but there is no chance your hand does.

Without any interaction between particles you cannot form a neural network (ie your brain). How can "ghosts" then exist using quantum mechanics, when any attempt at structure or order would nullify the effect of quantum mechanics.

gillad · 01-11-2012 4:21pm

Zombrex wrote: »

When they interact with something the wave form collapses.

Particles act the same way everywhere.
It is when they are "observed" that the wave form collapses in to a single particle.Everything exists(including ghosts) untill its is "observed" and untill they are observed they remain in their own parrallel universe
Everything is a soup of particles and we create our own realitys by putting them together in the way we were conditioned to.People that believe deep down in the paranormal will experience the paranormal and people who truely dont,wont.
Your own brain and mind are the result of the true/higher form of "The observer" which you can call consciousness or god if you are religious.
Ghosts are just as real as everything else you see.Everything is created by consciouness and EVERYTHING is possible but we dont truely believe that, so then"everything is possible" cant manifest into reality.

nagirrac · 01-11-2012 5:38pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification. The point remains though, what organises these in a disembodied ghost?

The conversation I commented on was on the nature of reality and consciousness. Gillad and yourself are coming at it from opposite ends of the spectrum. Yours appears to be the classical materialistic view that the physical universe is as we observe it and that consciousness emerges from the brain. Gillad is expressing the view that consciousnes is fundamental and reality as we observe it is derived from it but is likely one of many possible realities. In Gillad's view of reality I asume ghosts are possible and in your view I assume they are not?

As far as quantum mechanics, here's what Max Planck and Erwin Schrodinger had to say:

Planck: "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. All matter originates and exists because of a force that brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this minute solar system of an atom together. We must assume behind this force the existance of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter".

Schrodinger: "Consciousness cannot be explained in physical terms. Consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else".

There is nothing we have learned since Planck and Schrodinger that contradicts what they say or explains consciousness any better. The brains' role in consciousness i.e the "mind-brain problem" is one of the most fascinating and least understood aspects of science.

nagirrac · 01-11-2012 5:55pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Quantum mechanics deals with individual particles. Individual particles, when in a vaccum and isolated from all other particles, act like this. When they interact with something the wave form collapses. Which is why it is possible a single electron might exist on the other side of the universe, but there is no chance your hand does.

Everything in our observed reality is governed by quantum mechanics. Without the laws of quantum mechanics our reality would not exist.

gillad · 01-11-2012 6:35pm

nagirrac wrote: »

Gillad and yourself are coming at it from opposite ends of the spectrum.

And thats why our conversation is going nowhere, only around in circles:(

Genghiz Cohen · 02-11-2012 12:02am

nagirrac wrote: »

Everything in our observed reality is governed by quantum mechanics. Without the laws of quantum mechanics our reality would not exist.

Not really.
The laws set out in Quantum Mechanics only seem to apply at very very small scales. When you get up to individual atoms and such you move to Newtonian physics. You may have heard of the search for the Grand Unified Theory, one set of rules that applies to matter in all scales.

nagirrac · 02-11-2012 12:19am

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Not really.
The laws set out in Quantum Mechanics only seem to apply at very very small scales. When you get up to individual atoms and such you move to Newtonian physics. You may have heard of the search for the Grand Unified Theory, one set of rules that applies to matter in all scales.

Let me state it another way. If the laws of quantum mechanics did not apply at the subatomic level there would be no Newtonian physics.

mcmoustache · 02-11-2012 2:59am

nagirrac wrote: »

Let me state it another way. If the laws of quantum mechanics did not apply at the subatomic level there would be no Newtonian physics.

That's a possible result of a GUT which still hasn't been postulated yet. It's not unreasonable, though. I actually think that a GUT will describe QM and spit out gravity as a consequence. Unfortunately, we're some time from that so I can't state such ideas as fact.

I'd like zombrex's questions answered, however. If not, could you answer why we're applying QA to macroscopic objects like ghosts?

Just to let you know, I think that if ghosts exist and are seen by humans, they must be emitting or reflecting photons and this puts them firmly in the domain of science.

nagirrac · 02-11-2012 7:23am

mcmoustache wrote: »

That's a possible result of a GUT which still hasn't been postulated yet. It's not unreasonable, though. I actually think that a GUT will describe QM and spit out gravity as a consequence. Unfortunately, we're some time from that so I can't state such ideas as fact.

I'd like zombrex's questions answered, however. If not, could you answer why we're applying QA to macroscopic objects like ghosts?

Just to let you know, I think that if ghosts exist and are seen by humans, they must be emitting or reflecting photons and this puts them firmly in the domain of science.

I think you have to include gravity, postulate a TOE and forget about a GUT. Have you read Thomas Campbell's "My Big TOE"? Its a tough slog but worth it. He was a top physicist, worked at NASA and earlier at Bob Monroe's lab. We may be getting to the point with QM where we are going round in circles like an onion ring and getting no closer to the core.

Xombrex is thinking electrons and ghosts as we see them are made of photons and photons only. Photons behave the same as electrons when it comes to QM, except they have no charge. They also have essentially no mass at rest so have to come from something more fundamental i.e. consciousness. There is nothing physical about ghosts if they have no mass or charge.

Totally agree with your third paragraph. Everything should be explained by science eventually.

Genghiz Cohen · 02-11-2012 11:58am

nagirrac wrote: »

I think you have to include gravity, postulate a TOE and forget about a GUT. Have you read Thomas Campbell's "My Big TOE"? Its a tough slog but worth it. He was a top physicist, worked at NASA and earlier at Bob Monroe's lab. We may be getting to the point with QM where we are going round in circles like an onion ring and getting no closer to the core.

Xombrex is thinking electrons and ghosts as we see them are made of photons and photons only. Photons behave the same as electrons when it comes to QM, except they have no charge. They also have essentially no mass at rest so have to come from something more fundamental i.e. consciousness. There is nothing physical about ghosts if they have no mass or charge.

Totally agree with your third paragraph. Everything should be explained by science eventually.

But photons are physical. And they do have mass, else they would not be affected by gravity.

And even if ghosts were made of photons at rest, then we would never see them as we are moving with the planet which is moving with the sun which is moving with the galaxy which is moving.

You are also gonna have to define consciousness before you use it as a source of photons.

Zombrex · 02-11-2012 5:55pm

gillad wrote: »

Particles act the same way everywhere.

No they don't. Sometimes they crash into other particles. This causes the wave form to collapse. The fuzziness of quantum mechanics, where a particle doesn't actually exist at any particular point, is only present when the particle is isolated in a vacuum.

gillad wrote: »

It is when they are "observed" that the wave form collapses in to a single particle.Everything exists(including ghosts) untill its is "observed" and untill they are observed they remain in their own parrallel universe

"Observed" simple means interacted with. The particles in the atoms in your head are constantly interacting with other particles in other atoms also in your head. This forms the mass of your brain, which in turn forms the neural pathways of your brain, which is how your brain functions as a brain rather than say a rock or a tree.

None of the particles in your head are exhibiting the fuzziness of quantum mechanics because they are constantly being "observed". If you took a single particle out of your head and isolated it in a vacuum it would, but not as a mass in your brain.

So how can a ghost be a structure, made up of interacting particles, while still exhibiting the fuzziness of quantum mechanics?

gillad wrote: »

Everything is a soup of particles and we create our own realitys by putting them together in the way we were conditioned to.

How do "we" put particles together? Our cells put the atoms in your brain together.

gillad wrote: »

People that believe deep down in the paranormal will experience the paranormal and people who truely dont,wont.
Your own brain and mind are the result of the true/higher form of "The observer" which you can call consciousness or god if you are religious.

That is not what "observed" means in quantum physics. It is not the act of being watched. It is the act of interacting with something. The particles in your brain are constantly interacting with each, which is constantly collapsing the wave form of the particles in your brain.

gillad wrote: »

Ghosts are just as real as everything else you see.Everything is created by consciouness and EVERYTHING is possible but we dont truely believe that, so then"everything is possible" cant manifest into reality.

That doesn't even make sense, since "everything" already existed long before any consciousness had evolved in the first place. The particles you are made up of are old hydrogen atoms altered in the centre of a star into the various atoms that make up humans, such as carbon atoms.

Zombrex · 02-11-2012 6:05pm

nagirrac wrote: »

The conversation I commented on was on the nature of reality and consciousness. Gillad and yourself are coming at it from opposite ends of the spectrum.

Gillad is coming from the spectrum of not understanding quantum mechanics. Which is fine, but it is invalid then to use an incorrect version of what quantum mechanics says to justify belief in things like ghosts. Quantum mechanics does not say, for example, that particles only exist when they are observed by a consciousness. This is a misunderstanding of the context to which "observed" is used in quantum mechanics.

nagirrac wrote: »

Yours appears to be the classical materialistic view that the physical universe is as we observe it and that consciousness emerges from the brain. Gillad is expressing the view that consciousnes is fundamental and reality as we observe it is derived from it but is likely one of many possible realities. In Gillad's view of reality I asume ghosts are possible and in your view I assume they are not?

He can believe that, but there is nothing in quantum physics to support such a view (quite the opposite in fact, since standard model of physics says that the universe existed for billions of years before humans developed consciousness)

nagirrac wrote: »

There is nothing we have learned since Planck and Schrodinger that contradicts what they say or explains consciousness any better. The brains' role in consciousness i.e the "mind-brain problem" is one of the most fascinating and least understood aspects of science.

There is tons that we have learned since them that contradicts this view. When they said both those things studies of the role of the brain were in their infancy.

This is why people have to go back nearly a century to find quotes from reputable scientists. Modern understanding of the brain, particularly the effect brain damage has on personality, memory and reasoning ability, has completely debunked the mystical idea that consciousness exists independently to the brain.

nagirrac wrote: »

Everything in our observed reality is governed by quantum mechanics. Without the laws of quantum mechanics our reality would not exist.

True, but the laws of quantum mechanics says that particles only act like this when isolated from other particles.

gillad · 02-11-2012 6:47pm

Zombrex...You still dont understand what im saying and you dont understand the implications of The Observer effect at all and you may never grasp it...........consciousness creates reality.Its not in your brain,it creates your brain.......Its known as the ghost in the machine and it explains ghosts,god,afterlife and whatever you want it to explain.. its a growing view and its will be proved.

This is where im comming from
http://www.amitgoswami.org/

Zombrex · 02-11-2012 7:07pm

gillad wrote: »

Zombrex...You still dont understand what im saying and you dont understand the implications of The Observer effect at all and you may never grasp it...........consciousness creates reality.Its not in your brain,it creates your brain.......Its known as the ghost in the machine and it explains ghosts,god,afterlife and whatever you want it to explain.. its a growing view and its will be proved.

This is where im comming from
http://www.amitgoswami.org/

No you are coming from nonsense-stuff-humans-like-to-make-up-from-time-to-time

There is no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a product of the physical brain. And there is tons of evidence that consciousness is nothing other than a product of the physical brain (such as the effect brain damage has on personality, reasoning and memory)

There is also a very well understood concept of "theory of mind", which is a biological/psychological scientific concept of how humans think about our minds and identity and why we tend to think of the mind being separate from the body. It is a bit long to get into here, but the short of it is that thinking this way was an evolutionary way for humans to think about other humans who were not physically present (so I can wonder what you are doing at 4am tonight), something other animals don't seem to be able to (my dog can only think about a threat that is right in front of it)

This explains why we tend to view the mind as independent to the body, but this is a product of the way we think, it has nothing to do with actual reality.

And there is nothing in quantum mechanics that says observe is a consciousness. In fact that would make no sense, since you cannot "see" a particle. Observations in quantum mechanics are inferred from how the particle interacts with detectors.

nagirrac · 02-11-2012 7:08pm

Zombrex wrote: »

There is tons that we have learned since them that contradicts this view. When they said both those things studies of the role of the brain were in their infancy.
This is why people have to go back nearly a century to find quotes from reputable scientists. Modern understanding of the brain, particularly the effect brain damage has on personality, memory and reasoning ability, has completely debunked the mystical idea that consciousness exists independently to the brain.

Lets see if we can get somewhere with a discussion of the brain. Quantum Mechanics is too difficult to discuss without a complete understanding of the math involved. Planck and Schrodinger were talking about the nature of reality and not the brain and in that respect we are still a long way from understanding the complete picture. I don't think discussing quantum mechanics will get us anywhere in this forum at least but if you care to search you will find lots of modern physicists that still think what Planck and Schrodinger expressed.

It is absolutely true that brain damage can lead to loss in cognitive function. Brain damage also results in completely unexplained addition in cognitive function. There are many examples of savants who suffered brain injuries and afterwards had capabilities they never had before. Neuroplasticity shows that the brain can be physically altered by meditation. How can a thought change something as physical as a neuron pathway?

Consciousness is not at all understood, it is the hard problem, so any hypothesis is based on very little scientific evidence but on observation.

Have to run, more later.

gillad · 02-11-2012 7:47pm

Zombrex wrote: »

No you are coming from nonsense-stuff-humans-like-to-make-up-from-time-to-time

There is no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a product of the physical brain. And there is tons of evidence that consciousness is nothing other than a product of the physical brain (such as the effect brain damage has on personality, reasoning and memory)

There is also a very well understood concept of "theory of mind", which is a biological/psychological scientific concept of how humans think about our minds and identity and why we tend to think of the mind being separate from the body. It is a bit long to get into here, but the short of it is that thinking this way was an evolutionary way for humans to think about other humans who were not physically present (so I can wonder what you are doing at 4am tonight), something other animals don't seem to be able to (my dog can only think about a threat that is right in front of it)

This explains why we tend to view the mind as independent to the body, but this is a product of the way we think, it has nothing to do with actual reality.

And there is nothing in quantum mechanics that says observe is a consciousness. In fact that would make no sense, since you cannot "see" a particle. Observations in quantum mechanics are inferred from how the particle interacts with detectors.

Thats the old view.....I prefer the newer view

Standman · 02-11-2012 7:54pm

gillad wrote: »

Thats the old view.....I prefer the newer view

Preference has nothing to do with it.

gillad · 02-11-2012 8:49pm

Standman wrote: »

Preference has nothing to do with it.

I believe in the new view.
Because i have experience in the power of consciousness that defies logical science.

Zombrex · 03-11-2012 12:21am

gillad wrote: »

I believe in the new view.
Because i have experience in the power of consciousness that defies logical science.

That doesn't make any sense, you have basically said your beliefs are illogical.

Zombrex · 03-11-2012 12:22am

gillad wrote: »

Thats the old view.....I prefer the newer view

You will find that the universe doesn't really care what you prefer

nagirrac · 03-11-2012 6:31am

Zombrex wrote: »

There is no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a product of the physical brain. And there is tons of evidence that consciousness is nothing other than a product of the physical brain (such as the effect brain damage has on personality, reasoning and memory)

We do not understand consciousness and anyone stating "we have tons of evidence that consciousness is nothing other than a product of the physical brain" is basically on the same unsolid footing as those claiming the opposite. It is true that the majority of neuroscientists believe that consciousness emerges from the brain but then they would, their area of research is the brain. The idea that the brain is like computer hardware and the mind like software is hopelessly discredited and out of date.

There are lots of examples where consciousness emerging from the brain makes no sense. Savants who suffer brain damage and exhibit abilities afterwards they did not have before. Neuroplasticity, a growing field in the treatment of disorders such as OCD, where meditation is shown to cause permanent physical changes in the brain (using fMRI). Hard to explain from a materialistic position.

It is not called the hard problem for nothing. There are many reseachers who claim that the human mind will never be able to explain consciousness. I would tend to disagree (wishful thinking perhaps), and believe the human mind will continue to evolve and eventually understand consciousness.

Zombrex · 03-11-2012 10:49am

nagirrac wrote: »

We do not understand consciousness and anyone stating "we have tons of evidence that consciousness is nothing other than a product of the physical brain" is basically on the same unsolid footing as those claiming the opposite. It is true that the majority of neuroscientists believe that consciousness emerges from the brain but then they would, their area of research is the brain. The idea that the brain is like computer hardware and the mind like software is hopelessly discredited and out of date.

Er no it isn't. Not at all. In fact it is the only concept of the mind that we have any evidence for.

The people who object to this are people who find it unsatisfactory. But finding something unsatisfactory, because it doesn't fit with a pre-conceived notion (see theory of mind) is not justification for rejecting something.

nagirrac wrote: »

There are lots of examples where consciousness emerging from the brain makes no sense. Savants who suffer brain damage and exhibit abilities afterwards they did not have before. Neuroplasticity, a growing field in the treatment of disorders such as OCD, where meditation is shown to cause permanent physical changes in the brain (using fMRI). Hard to explain from a materialistic position.

What are you talking about? That is ONLY explained from a materialistic position.

If thought was not a physical process in the brain how could it alter the brain?

Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc

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