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New Children's Hospital at Mater site
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This might be completely off the wall, but what about St Vincent's Hospital in D4? It's close to public transport (Dublin Bus and DART), it's a major hospital and it's generally a more tranquil setting than a city centre location. Plus, they recently built a new private hospital, which means the previous 200 bed private hospital could be refurbished and extended instead of being a completely new build.
The only access I problem I can see is at rush hour, but you'll probably get that anywhere. As I say, it might be completely off the wall, but it's the one location I never see mentioned when alternatives are raised, and I think it having a presumably vacant private hospital would mean it could get up and running much quicker.0 -
The obvious location, if it must be part of the Mater, is Mountjoy Prison. The Mountjoy site is bigger than the Mater site and could easily be linked to the existing Mater by underground and overground links. The prison is past its useful life anyway. If the prison was re-located as planned, there would be more than enough room to build the new hospital with adequate parking and green space with little or no adverse visual impact on the surrounding area.0
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Glad to see the last of Bertie's follies finally go. This was always an appalling site to build any new hospital let alone this one.
Life ain't always empty.
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Glad to see the last of Bertie's follies finally go. This was always an appalling site to build any new hospital let alone this one.
95% of the medical profession disagree with you.
Disgraceful that RTE and others let people with massive vested interests come on today crying that the site was picked by, you guessed it, vested interests.
Such people including those connected to the hospitals which are moving, mainly one who really wanted it to happen at his former hospital; and someone who wants it to be built on his dead duck site so he can actually sell the damn thing.What specialist services will the Mater offer that the three children's hospitals don't have already?
Consultants. All that paediatric hospitals have are paediatric consultants - adult hospitals have cardiologists, neurologists, specialist surgeons, oncologists, etc, etc, etc.
The ABP report found nothing wrong with having *a* childrens hospital there, just not the specific design. The location is as right as you're going to find within the parameters.0 -
95% of the medical profession disagree with you.
Really? Where'd you source that number from?
Does it include the 'foreign experts' who have no real idea of what traffic in Dublin is like, or how poor public transport provision is compared to similar European cities?
What about the views of parents? FFS I live in Dublin and I don't want to have to fight my way through gridlock with a sick child. If I had already driven from much futher away it'd be even less welcome. This site is hopeless (even if Metro North had been built.) The decision to pick it was transparently poltiical, what was surprising was that the new government didn't drop it immediately - but maybe they'd rather let ABP get the blame?Disgraceful that RTE and others let people with massive vested interests come on today crying that the site was picked by, you guessed it, vested interests.
What is RTE's vested interest?Sorry, I misread that. But it seems to me that everyone talking on RTE News on any subject has a vested interest. Some obvious some less so (think: celebrity economists)
Wouldn't really be news if you got people who didn't GAF to talk about it.
If you think it was unbalanced then you can complain to BAI - didn't see it myself - but these sort of complaints are very rarely upheld.Such people including those connected to the hospitals which are moving, mainly one who really wanted it to happen at his former hospital;
Buuuut... someone told me the medical profession were 95% in favour :rolleyes:and someone who wants it to be built on his dead duck site so he can actually sell the damn thing.
Just because the Mater is a terrible site doesn't in itself make his site a good one.
Decisions like this need to be kept away from vested interests including politicians and yes, consultants.
The late Maurice Nelligan was strongly in favour of the Mater site originally but then publicly came out against it later.Consultants. All that paediatric hospitals have are paediatric consultants - adult hospitals have cardiologists, neurologists, specialist surgeons, oncologists, etc, etc, etc.
Whereas Our Lady's has paediatric oncologists, paediatric cardiologists...
The whole point of a childrens' hospital is that they will be cared for by specialists in paediatric medicine.The ABP report found nothing wrong with having *a* childrens hospital there, just not the specific design. The location is as right as you're going to find within the parameters.
Outside ABP's remit to decide on the merits of a hospital there per se, unless it would make the traffic worse, but it's not possible to make it much worse there.
They did say the site would be overdeveloped.
The design is clearly intended to cram as much as possible into a site that is not large enough. This pushes up construction costs (3 levels of underground car park?!) and the design has too many floors and is too reliant on lifts.
I'm not bothered about the skyline frankly.Life ain't always empty.
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Really? Where'd you source that number from?
Working in the sector - and no, not for the Mater or indeed the HSE for that matter.Does it include the 'foreign experts' who have no real idea of what traffic in Dublin is like, or how poor public transport provision is compared to similar European cities?
Seeing as I've never met them, no.What about the views of parents? FFS I live in Dublin and I don't want to have to fight my way through gridlock with a sick child. If I had already driven from much futher away it'd be even less welcome. This site is hopeless (even if Metro North had been built.) The decision to pick it was transparently poltiical, what was surprising was that the new government didn't drop it immediately - but maybe they'd rather let ABP get the blame?
Seeing as one of the hospitals its replacing is effectively *BESIDE* it and another is in an equally gridlocked location, what changes to the current situation?Buuuut... someone told me the medical profession were 95% in favour :rolleyes:
The 5% being mostly made up of those who feel they're going to lose something.Whereas Our Lady's has paediatric oncologists, paediatric cardiologists...
The whole point of a childrens' hospital is that they will be cared for by specialists in paediatric medicine.
And yet they require the services of "adult" consultants on a constant, daily, basis - as do the other two paediatric hospitals.They did say the site would be overdeveloped.
The design is clearly intended to cram as much as possible into a site that is not large enough. This pushes up construction costs (3 levels of underground car park?!) and the design has too many floors and is too reliant on lifts.
I'm not bothered about the skyline frankly.
This is a *city* we're talking about. Low-rise developments are the cause of the majority of out planning problems - sprawl, impracticalities of decent public transport, and so on.
Cramming as much as possible in to a site is what you're meant to do in a city. "too many floors" is 100+, not the figures here.
If you think any existing multiple story hospital doesn't rely on lifts, you've clearly not been in them very often.0 -
Working in the sector - and no, not for the Mater or indeed the HSE for that matter.
It's still a made up number.Seeing as one of the hospitals its replacing is effectively *BESIDE* it and another is in an equally gridlocked location, what changes to the current situation?
Temple St may as well be on Mars as far as I'm concerned, and I don't live all that far away. Going there is simply not a sane option.
Crumlin (and yes I've taken a sick child to Crumlin in a hurry) isn't anything like as bad traffic wise as the congestion around the Mater.And yet they require the services of "adult" consultants on a constant, daily, basis - as do the other two paediatric hospitals.
And yet, Crumlin and Tallaght provide good care, in my experience excellent care at Crumlin. Maybe it's easier to make a few consultants travel a bit, rather than all the patients and their families?
A lot of people reading this thread will have no idea, a few miles seems like nothing but getting to the Mater from a few miles away can take hours.This is a *city* we're talking about. Low-rise developments are the cause of the majority of out planning problems - sprawl, impracticalities of decent public transport, and so on.
Right so all of our hospitals need to be taller than Liberty Hall? Come on.
You well know that 'low-rise sprawl' refers to residential development. It doesn't mean that a hospital needs to have 16 floors.Cramming as much as possible in to a site is what you're meant to do in a city. "too many floors" is 100+, not the figures here.
Cram as much in - at the expense of any green space at all, at the expense (literally) of digging down three or more floors underground? This hospital is designed the way it is not because it's the best way to design a national children's hospital, but because it's crammed into too small a site.If you think any existing multiple story hospital doesn't rely on lifts, you've clearly not been in them very often.
Fail. There's a big difference between using lifts in a 4 or 5 story building, and using lifts in a 15 or 16 story building.Life ain't always empty.
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 64487
It's still a made up number.
Its still very close to correct.Temple St may as well be on Mars as far as I'm concerned, and I don't live all that far away. Going there is simply not a sane option.
Crumlin (and yes I've taken a sick child to Crumlin in a hurry) isn't anything like as bad traffic wise as the congestion around the Mater.
Far harder for an ambulance to get to in a hurry due to a lack of bus lanes. I have frequently seen ambulances needing Garda bike escorts to get there - something I've never seen at Temple St.And yet, Crumlin and Tallaght provide good care, in my experience excellent care at Crumlin. Maybe it's easier to make a few consultants travel a bit, rather than all the patients and their families?
Its still care which can be drastically and extremely easily improved by ensuring the new hospital is co-located with a large acute hospital.Right so all of our hospitals need to be taller than Liberty Hall? Come on.
You well know that 'low-rise sprawl' refers to residential development. It doesn't mean that a hospital needs to have 16 floors.
All? No. Just any new development going in the city centre should be of sufficient height as to make good use of the land.Cram as much in - at the expense of any green space at all, at the expense (literally) of digging down three or more floors underground? This hospital is designed the way it is not because it's the best way to design a national children's hospital, but because it's crammed into too small a site.
Green space = roof garden. There is also green space directly opposite the hospital and in other locations nearby. The main use of "green space" in hospitals is generally to provide somewhere for people to smoke anyway - not something that should be enabled at a paediatric facility.
Three floors of underground parking = only sensible way to have parking in the city centre.
The new Vincents Private has two floors of underground parking and is (from memory) 8 stories above ground - this is despite it being built privately so with no allegedly vested interests in design and on a relatively large site - because it is simply more efficient to do so.Fail. There's a big difference between using lifts in a 4 or 5 story building, and using lifts in a 15 or 16 story building.
Fail? Do you expect people to use the stairs in a 16 story building more than in a 4?
You claim its far too reliant on lifts yet claim "fail" when its pointed out to you that, for instance, the TWO floor Tallaght Hospital is completely reliant on lifts. Twisted logic there.0 -
You can't have a debate on facts and figures because there aren't any. Most of the reports that were done, were done with artificial constraints IMO so specifically bias towards the mater site. That alone should alarm people.0
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Its still very close to correct.
So you assert.
Even if true it takes no account of the needs or views of parents.Far harder for an ambulance to get to in a hurry due to a lack of bus lanes. I have frequently seen ambulances needing Garda bike escorts to get there - something I've never seen at Temple St.
Our Lady's is ON a bus lane FFS. I drive past it every morning and evening. I often see ambulances going there but never with a Garda escort. They manage fine there.Its still care which can be drastically and extremely easily improved by ensuring the new hospital is co-located with a large acute hospital.
That's not an argument for the Mater. There are other large acute hospitals. The large acute hospital and the childrens' hospital could both be built on a new accessible site.All? No. Just any new development going in the city centre should be of sufficient height as to make good use of the land.
Why on earth would it rationally be built in the city centre?Green space = roof garden. There is also green space directly opposite the hospital and in other locations nearby. The main use of "green space" in hospitals is generally to provide somewhere for people to smoke anyway - not something that should be enabled at a paediatric facility.
Typical medical attitude of treating the symptoms not the patient.Three floors of underground parking = only sensible way to have parking in the city centre.
Ignoring the insanity of building it in the city centre in the first place.Fail? Do you expect people to use the stairs in a 16 story building more than in a 4?
I expect the lifts will be much more frequent in a lower building and there will be less need to use them in the first place.Life ain't always empty.
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Hi
I have a child who attends Temple St on a regular basis , and have had quite a few nights there. ( I would not fault the Temple St or it's staff BTW its a wonderful place ).
However I would like to see this build near the M50 , Newlands Cross being the obvious place.
Getting to TS ( which for all intents and purposes is where the proposed hospital would be ) is a nightmare , and parking non existant and VERY expensive ( 2.80 PH at least )
People bleat on about public transport etc, tell me this . You have a sick child do you really park in say the Red Cow and get public transport in ? Of course not.
Of course this hospital has to serve the Inner City Dublin , but it also serves basically most of the country . While being in TS , I have met parents from the four provinces of Ireland , all of whom complain about parking etc .
I only live in North Kildare , but it can take me well over 1hr to get to TS , and you don't chose the times to travel , often its in the teeth of the rush hour and the Quays , or Phibsbourgh are always locked solid.
Now as for the staff / Medical profession saying they want to be in the Mater site. I reckon that's bluster , the parking there effects them also . Also if the site is chosen carefully with public transport links ( Luas link to Newlands X etc ) this this is negated.
As for co-location , I am not an medical expert , I can't comment on that , but TBH it strikes me that the group of experts only spoke to the staff/ Consultants and not to the wider public,.
Now the design destroying the North Side , that area is rather pretty and historic , the proposed building did seem way out of proportion .0 -
People bleat on about public transport etc, tell me this . You have a sick child do you really park in say the Red Cow and get public transport in ? Of course not.
I guess they have to think about the less well off families that unlike you, can't afford to run cars and have to rely on public transport.
Could a ghost estate be utilised off the M50 so that long term patient's parents could be accommodated? Is there one? This would mean regular public transport would have to be in place from every part of the country.0 -
John_Rambo wrote: »I guess they have to think about the less well off families that unlike you, can't afford to run cars and have to rely on public transport.
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Sorry I didn't explain myself correctly . What I mean is people say that you SHOULD use public transport , that is why parking is so expensive etc and that the traffic is not relevant.
I was thinking about people who can't afford a car , what's the difference getting a LUAS or whatever to a greenfield site or getting a bus to TS/Mater site ? Or is this hospital only for people who don't drive who live in the Dublin inner city ?
If it's urgent/ an emergency could not an ambulance be utilised ?
The only thing in favour of that site ( Mater ) is it's proximity to the maternity hospitals , my daughter was transferred to TS from the Rotunda from the first day of her life , so I was able to walk between the two hospitals , and my wife was able to visit also while she was in the Rotunda .
Perhaps all the maternity hospitals should be moved/co-located next to where ever this hospital is built ( if it's built ).
Did this expert group check to see how patents / parents travel to/from the hospital ( I suspect not because that would involve them talking to people outside the medical profession who's views are not relevant )0 -
Fail? Do you expect people to use the stairs in a 16 story building more than in a 4?
A building which is 16 stories high on the same foot print as a 4 story building will clearly have 300% more sqm, have 300% more facilities and cater for 300% more people. Thus it would need 300% more lifts. Perhaps there's some factor that would make lifts more efficient the higher the number of so the extra lifts required would be lower than 300%. Skyscrapers came up with the idea of express lifts to intermediary floors to reduce number of lifts required (for example). However it's not the same.0 -
Sorry I didn't explain myself correctly . What I mean is people say that you SHOULD use public transport , that is why parking is so expensive etc and that the traffic is not relevant.
I was thinking about people who can't afford a car , what's the difference getting a LUAS or whatever to a greenfield site or getting a bus to TS/Mater site ? Or is this hospital only for people who don't drive who live in the Dublin inner city ?
Unfortunately, Dublin is very much a car city. Very few people (even those counted as living in poverty) do not have a car. I'm big into improving public transport links and a big supporter of building Dart Underground, Metro North and Luas extensions. However, even doing my best not to be cynical, public transport is improved in Dublin to benefit drivers not to benefit public transport users. The other reality is Metro North is not going to be built in the next 10 years, if at all.
Traffic around Mater is awful. N1, N3, Balymun Road and Finglas Road all feed into the area to some degree. Unless some cross city tunnels are built (ala Melbourne) this isn't going to change. Given money situation this isn't going to happen.
So we are were we are. Mater is a terrible site as government will not (and can not at the moment) invest in the necessary public transport and road improvement projects to facilitate people in getting to and from it. It will actually make traffic worse. 3 hospitals being merged into 1.
I disagree with An Taisce low rise buildings policy though and I don't object to the proposed building design, it's futuristic and bold. However at the moment a building this size should only be built next to Clontarf Rd, Connolly, Tara St., Pearse St., or Grand Canal Dock stations. Infrastructure first. That's basic planning. How many times do we have to repeat this mistake?0 -
Really? Why then did an extremely large number of current and retired Irish Paediatricians come out against the Mater site?95% of the medical profession disagree with you.
Maurice Neligan, Brendan Drumm and Fin Breathnach amongst them. Can you post any evidence to support that 95% of the medical profession viewed the Mater as the best choice?
The action groups with 'vested interests' against the Mater site being chosen consisted of parents of sick children and clinicians in the field.Disgraceful that RTE and others let people with massive vested interests come on today crying that the site was picked by, you guessed it, vested interests.
So all current and former consultant paediatricians opinions can be disregarded because they work(or have worked) in the hospitals that will be moving? Fantastic argument there MYOB.Such people including those connected to the hospitals which are moving, mainly one who really wanted it to happen at his former hospital; and someone who wants it to be built on his dead duck site so he can actually sell the damn thing.
Excuse me? Crumlin has some of the top specialist consultants in the world, especially among Cardiology (including Dr. Kevin Redmond) and Haemotoloy-Oncology. You're incredibly full of ****.Consultants. All that paediatric hospitals have are paediatric consultants - adult hospitals have cardiologists, neurologists, specialist surgeons, oncologists, etc, etc, etc.
The best I could find on short time was this list of consultants from 2006:
Yes, clearly Crumlin is totally deficient in specialised care.Dr Neil Adamson Child Psychiatry
Dr David Allcutt Neurosurgery
Dr Atif Awan Nephrology
Dr Billy Bourke Gastro/College Lecturer
Dr Mags Bourke Anaesthetics
Dr Fin Breatnach Oncology
Dr Clare Brenner Radiology
Dr Annemarie Broderick Gastroenterology
Mr Donal Brosnahan Ophthalmic Surgery
Dr Paul Browne Haematology
Dr Karina Butler Infectious Diseases
Dr Gerry Canny Respirology
Dr Michael Capra Oncology
Dr Bill Casey Anaesthetics
Dr Declan Cody Endocrinology
Dr David Coghlan Paediatrics
Dr David Colemand Cardiology
Prof Martrin Corbally Paediatric Surgery
Dr Colm Costigan Endocrinology
Dr Melanie Cotter Haematology
Dr Eugene Dempsey Neonatology
Dr Mairin Doherty Psychiatry
Dr Pat Doherty Anaesthetics
Mr Frank Dowling Orthopaedics
Dr Des Duff Cardiology
Ms Patricia Eadie Plastics
Prof Michael Fitzgerald Psychiatry
Mr Padraig Fleming Dentistry
Mr Esmond Fogarty Orthopaedics
Dr Paddy Gavin Infectious Diseases
Dr Peter Greally Respiratory
Prof Andrew Green Genetics
Dr Roisin Hayes Radiology
Dr Martina Healy Anaesthetics
Dr Roisin Healy Accident & Emergency
Prof Hilary Hoey Paediatrics/Endocrinology
Mr Stephen Hone ENT Surgery
Dr Alan Irvine Dermatology
Dr Jerry Kelleher Radiology
Dr Orla Killeen Rheumatology
Dr Bryan Lynch Neurology
Dr Sally Ann Lynch Genetics
Dr Barry Lyons Anaesthetics
Dr Michael McDermott Histopathology
Dr Hugh Monaghan Paediatrics
Mr David Moore Orthopaedics
Mr Jacques Noel Orthopaedics
Mr Lars Nolke Cardiothoracic
Dr Pamela O’Connor Neonatology
Dr Colm O’Donnell Neonatology
Mr David O’Donovan Plastics
Dr Brendan O’Hare Anaesthetics
Dr Aengus O’Marcaigh Haematology
Dr Anne O’Meara Oncology
Mr Tom O’Reilly Plastics
Dr Maeve O’Reilly Palliative Care
Dr Catriona O’Sullivan Radiation Oncology
Dr Niamh O’Sullivan Microbiology
Dr Paul Oslizlok Cardiology
Mr David Orr Plastics
Dr Ethna Phelan Radiology
Prof Prem Puri Paediatric Surgery
Mr Feargal Quinn Paediatric Surgery
Dr Shoana Quinn Paediatrics
Dr William Reardon Genetics
Prof J Mark Redmond Cardiothoracic
Mr John Russell ENT Surgery
Dr Clodagh Ryan Haematology
Dr Imelda Ryan Psychiatry
Dr Padraig Sheeran Anaesthetics
Dr Margaret Sheridan-Pereira Neonatology
Prof Owen Smith Haematology
Dr Mary Waldron Nephrology
Dr Kevin Walsh Cardiology
Dr Sean Walsh Emergency Medicine
Dr Rosemarie Watson Dermatology
Dr David Webb Neurology
Dr Barry White Haematology
Dr Martin White Neonatology
Mr Freddie Wood Cardiac Surgery
Dr Sufin Yap Metabolics
The ABP report wasn't on the suitability of placing a children's hospital, so of course they didn't find anything wrong with having it there :rolleyes:The ABP report found nothing wrong with having *a* childrens hospital there, just not the specific design. The location is as right as you're going to find within the parameters.
When even the chairman of the board steps down and calls it the wrong site chosen for political reasons, it might have been time to start reviewing your position.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0311/1224291885290.html
Crumlin is not equally gridlocked. Please indicate how exactly it is? Especially considering it has a bus lane almost the entire length of the roads from the N7 interchange.Seeing as one of the hospitals its replacing is effectively *BESIDE* it and another is in an equally gridlocked location, what changes to the current situation?
So anyone who disagrees with the new site is biased with a vested interest? Incredibly closed minded of you. Why are you even on a discussion thread about the subject if you're so incredibly cocksure that you alone are right and no-one else can ever show you to be wrong, as they obviously have vested interests?The 5% being mostly made up of those who feel they're going to lose something.
Please back this up as having worked in Crumlin for several years(and no, I stopped working there in 2010 to return to college so don't go pretending I'm biased) I haven't seen any evidence of this.And yet they require the services of "adult" consultants on a constant, daily, basis - as do the other two paediatric hospitals.
None.
Zilch.
This is a *hospital* we're talking about, where quality of life for outpatients and especially inpatients is just as important as other factors.This is a *city* we're talking about. Low-rise developments are the cause of the majority of out planning problems - sprawl, impracticalities of decent public transport, and so on.
Cramming as much as possible in to a site is what you're meant to do in a city. "too many floors" is 100+, not the figures here.
If you think any existing multiple story hospital doesn't rely on lifts, you've clearly not been in them very often.
Then prove it.Its still very close to correct.
I worked the reception desk at Crumlin for long enough(including night and evening shifts) to safely say you're yet again telling incredibly big porkies. I've personally only seen Garda escorts used to escort private cars to Crumlin, though I can't say that they don't occasionally escort ambulances.Far harder for an ambulance to get to in a hurry due to a lack of bus lanes. I have frequently seen ambulances needing Garda bike escorts to get there - something I've never seen at Temple St.
Which is something that is increasingly being seen as a red herring. From what I've been told, co-location with an adult hospital is next to useless for a national children's hospital as the hospital will have all the expertise it needs. The only benefit is of attaching it to a current teaching hospital and especially, a Maternity Hospital(something which the Mater doesn't have).Its still care which can be drastically and extremely easily improved by ensuring the new hospital is co-located with a large acute hospital.
I'm sorry, perhaps you should tell the children in the Oncology Ward of Crumlin that the little green spaces they have to look out in and occasionally(if they're well enough) venture out into aren't for them. That's an incredibly callous and insulting view to have, and yet again indicative of just how close-minded you are on this issue.Green space = roof garden. There is also green space directly opposite the hospital and in other locations nearby. The main use of "green space" in hospitals is generally to provide somewhere for people to smoke anyway - not something that should be enabled at a paediatric facility.
There's a huge difference between a lift system for a 2,3 or 4 story building and a 16 with concurrent huge differences of downtime for users.You claim its far too reliant on lifts yet claim "fail" when its pointed out to you that, for instance, the TWO floor Tallaght Hospital is completely reliant on lifts. Twisted logic there.
So MYOB, you've been posting a lot of bold claims and so far, despite three long posts, not backed up even one.
Any chance you'll put your money where your mouth is or will you continue to shoot it off?0 -
Did Dublin Fire Brigade or any other ambulance service express an opinion on the Mater site? Surely with their experience they could give a definitive view on emergency access? Is the location of the Mater a problem for them currently?0
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Another win for the suburbanisation crowd. I'm sick of living in a city that focuses on pushing people further into the suburbs while letting the city centre rot and be taken over by heroin clinics and tat.
This is a huge loss for Dublin City no matter how you slice it.0 -
FreudianSlippers wrote: »Another win for the suburbanisation crowd. I'm sick of living in a city that focuses on pushing people further into the suburbs while letting the city centre rot and be taken over by heroin clinics and tat.
This is a huge loss for Dublin City no matter how you slice it.
Not proceeding with Metro North and Dart Underground already won that one. Infrastructure has to be built before large scale projects like this. Otherwise it's the Banana Republic as usual. Carry on.
Also I don't know what you know about Dublin city centre but it certainly does not stretch as far to the far side of Dorset Street. Mater site is not in city centre. It's actually in Dublin 7.0 -
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FreudianSlippers wrote: »Another win for the suburbanisation crowd. I'm sick of living in a city that focuses on pushing people further into the suburbs while letting the city centre rot and be taken over by heroin clinics and tat.
This is a huge loss for Dublin City no matter how you slice it.
I'm not all the way through the report yet (134 pages!) but the overwhelming message is that the building simply does not fit on the site. Far too many compromises and operational strategies are required to make it work and that should not occur in a brand new building. It's not about suburbanisation or city living but getting a modern, well designed facility in the most appropriate location. If compromises have to be made somewhere it should be in the location, not in the building.0 -
FreudianSlippers, compare the proposed Mater site to the Manchester Royal Infirmary site (which hosts a childrens hospital, general hospital and eye hospital among other).
Compare the site size, compare the surrounding environs.
It isn't about the Mater being in the city, it is about WHERE in the city it is.0 -
FreudianSlippers wrote: »Another win for the suburbanisation crowd. I'm sick of living in a city that focuses on pushing people further into the suburbs while letting the city centre rot and be taken over by heroin clinics and tat.
This is a huge loss for Dublin City no matter how you slice it.
Yeah but this is supposed to be a national hospital, not just a facility to suit people living in Dublin city or with handy access to Dublin commuter services.Did Dublin Fire Brigade or any other ambulance service express an opinion on the Mater site? Surely with their experience they could give a definitive view on emergency access? Is the location of the Mater a problem for them currently?
There's a quote in todays indo, supposedly from a paramedic (in no way an official position):"IT shouldn't be going ahead. It should be on the outskirts of the city. It's a nightmare."
One paramedic vented his opinions eagerly as he shuffled past Temple Street Children's Hospital with his two children in tow.0 -
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Really? Why then did an extremely large number of current and retired Irish Paediatricians come out against the Mater site?
Maurice Neligan, Brendan Drumm and Fin Breathnach amongst them. Can you post any evidence to support that 95% of the medical profession viewed the Mater as the best choice?
Finn Breathnach is the most biased person going as goes wanting it at Crumlin and nowhere else
Maurice Neligan was not a paediatrician
Brendan Drumm is on the board of the new NCH and I have never seen him speaking out against it before or after his appointment to same.
Any more you want to suggest?The action groups with 'vested interests' against the Mater site being chosen consisted of parents of sick children and clinicians in the field.
All I see are groups of parents of children formerly or currently treated at each hospital wanting (quite obviously) to protect "their" hospital. There's never any rationality except wanting to keep "their" hospital. Emotions do not make good decisions.So all current and former consultant paediatricians opinions can be disregarded because they work(or have worked) in the hospitals that will be moving? Fantastic argument there MYOB.
Anyone who makes such biased statements as Breathachs need to be disregarded. Again, emotional attachment and protectionism causes brutal decision making.Excuse me? Crumlin has some of the top specialist consultants in the world, especially among Cardiology (including Dr. Kevin Redmond) and Haemotoloy-Oncology. You're incredibly full of ****.
The best I could find on short time was this list of consultants from 2006:
Yes, clearly Crumlin is totally deficient in specialised care.
The majority of those consultants do not practice there - they are available to the hospital but due to it not being co-located, they are not present on site, have offices there, etc.
Care to retract the "full of ****" attack now?
You also may want to consider that there isn't just Crumlin being replaced here.The ABP report wasn't on the suitability of placing a children's hospital, so of course they didn't find anything wrong with having it there :rolleyes:
ABP often report that something is in an unsuitable location when refusing permission.When even the chairman of the board steps down and calls it the wrong site chosen for political reasons, it might have been time to start reviewing your position.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0311/1224291885290.html
My position is based on my own opinion, his is based on his. Why would his have any impact on mine?Crumlin is not equally gridlocked. Please indicate how exactly it is? Especially considering it has a bus lane almost the entire length of the roads from the N7 interchange.
Try getting there from anywhere *other* than the N7 interchange, even with flashing blues on.So anyone who disagrees with the new site is biased with a vested interest? Incredibly closed minded of you. Why are you even on a discussion thread about the subject if you're so incredibly cocksure that you alone are right and no-one else can ever show you to be wrong, as they obviously have vested interests?
The talking heads that RTE, et al, dragged out yesterday are all vested interests - I never said everyone who disagrees with it is. However, nearly everyone in the medical profession who disagrees with it is closely linked to a failed bidder.Please back this up as having worked in Crumlin for several years(and no, I stopped working there in 2010 to return to college so don't go pretending I'm biased) I haven't seen any evidence of this.
None.
Zilch.
You just provided all the evidence yourself - a list full of consultants from adult hospitals.This is a *hospital* we're talking about, where quality of life for outpatients and especially inpatients is just as important as other factors.
And how does high rise inherently impact on quality of life? It doesn't.I worked the reception desk at Crumlin for long enough(including night and evening shifts) to safely say you're yet again telling incredibly big porkies. I've personally only seen Garda escorts used to escort private cars to Crumlin, though I can't say that they don't occasionally escort ambulances.
Evenings and nights - precisely the kind of time traffic is so locked they need escorts....
Try 8-10am, 3-6pm. Try standing out in Crumlin Village for a day and watch the ambulance traffic coming in. It'd be a rare day that there wasn't either a Garda escort or an ambulance held up for a prolonged period.Which is something that is increasingly being seen as a red herring. From what I've been told, co-location with an adult hospital is next to useless for a national children's hospital as the hospital will have all the expertise it needs. The only benefit is of attaching it to a current teaching hospital and especially, a Maternity Hospital(something which the Mater doesn't have).
The Mater will have a maternity hospital should the entire plan go through; and it is a teaching hospital. Care to do a bit of research please?I'm sorry, perhaps you should tell the children in the Oncology Ward of Crumlin that the little green spaces they have to look out in and occasionally(if they're well enough) venture out into aren't for them. That's an incredibly callous and insulting view to have, and yet again indicative of just how close-minded you are on this issue.
Crumlin, Crumlin, Crumlin. Shows where your viewpoint comes from on this.
There's three hospitals being replaced - Temple Street, the NCH in Tallaght and your former employer. Are you going to attack this solely from that perspective? Because if so, I'll have to file you under Breathnach.
There is more than sufficient green space being provided in the new hospital as well as more than sufficient to be looked out upon.There's a huge difference between a lift system for a 2,3 or 4 story building and a 16 with concurrent huge differences of downtime for users.
And there'll be rather a lot more lifts in a 16 storey building than a 4 storey one.So MYOB, you've been posting a lot of bold claims and so far, despite three long posts, not backed up even one.
Any chance you'll put your money where your mouth is or will you continue to shoot it off?
You've done nothing but attempt to fight Crumlin's corner, badly; insult me, baselessly; and make massive errors of fact.
Are you going to continue to do this?0 -
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So you assert.
Even if true it takes no account of the needs or views of parents.
I would imagine that medical professionals are taking in to account the needs of their patients as their main priority.Our Lady's is ON a bus lane FFS. I drive past it every morning and evening. I often see ambulances going there but never with a Garda escort. They manage fine there.
On a buslane from one direction. On a narrow, two lane road from the city itself.That's not an argument for the Mater. There are other large acute hospitals. The large acute hospital and the childrens' hospital could both be built on a new accessible site.
There's only one other large acute hospital in Dublin with sufficient land (disregard the Tallaght-pusher on the news today - he even admitted 'some buildings may have to be moved...' - the site is full) which is Connolly.
Connolly, which is a physical wreck. Make it 1Bn to do it there as Connolly would need near replacement also.Why on earth would it rationally be built in the city centre?
Why on earth not?Typical medical attitude of treating the symptoms not the patient.
So "providing green space" isn't a response to "lack of green space".... interesting logic there.Ignoring the insanity of building it in the city centre in the first place.
There is no insanity.I expect the lifts will be much more frequent in a lower building and there will be less need to use them in the first place.
You counter lift frequency by putting in more lifts.
In Tallaght, there is extremely poor access to stairs, effectively none if you don't know where they are, so lifts are used constantly, for everything. Every hospital is lift dependent if it has more than one floor.0 -
I would imagine that medical professionals are taking in to account the needs of their patients as their main priority.
You might imagine that. I don't.On a buslane from one direction. On a narrow, two lane road from the city itself.
Isn't the city itself supposed to be served by Temple St at present?Connolly, which is a physical wreck. Make it 1Bn to do it there as Connolly would need near replacement also.
Grand. It would be worth 1bn to do it right. So often in Ireland we try and take the cheaper option which of course either never works right, ends up costing far more, or both.Why on earth not? (built in city centre)
Why not - because acess to that part of the city centre is absolutely chronic, and Metro North is a pipe dream that will never be built.So "providing green space" isn't a response to "lack of green space".... interesting logic there.
Green space... on a frickin' roof 40m up in the air, higher than any building within a mile? Sounds like fun on a windy day (or even a breezy one).There is no insanity.
Picking a site with terrible access, that's too small, that has zero room for expansion, that requires the design of the hospital to be compromised to make it fit, that requires the construction cost to needlessly balloon to make it fit, absolutely is insane.You counter lift frequency by putting in more lifts.
In Tallaght, there is extremely poor access to stairs, effectively none if you don't know where they are, so lifts are used constantly, for everything. Every hospital is lift dependent if it has more than one floor.
This really isn't hard to understand.
Let's say you have two hospitals with the same total floor area, one with 4 floors on a spacious site and this yoke with 16 floors crammed into a small space.
On the 4 floor hospital, you go in the door you are already on the same level as 1/4 of the hospital. You are far less likely to need to use stairs or a lift and if you do, chances are it's only one or two floors.
With the 16 floor hospital, you only have access to 1/16 of the hospital without changing floor. You are likely to have to go up or down several floors so stairs aren't really an option. Yes you can put in more lifts, but this wastes floor area, costs a lot of money to install and has a very large ongoing maintenance and energy cost.Life ain't always empty.
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You might imagine that. I don't.
So what malicious motives do you imagine, then?Isn't the city itself supposed to be served by Temple St at present?
Temple Street has the most urgent replacement need of any of the three and has poor services as a result. Crumlin's semi-decent access (if you've got blues) comes from one specific direction only.Grand. It would be worth 1bn to do it right. So often in Ireland we try and take the cheaper option which of course either never works right, ends up costing far more, or both.
Seeing as the main claims for moving to another site are that it'd be cheaper, I don't see how a potential 1Bn move is going to win on any factor.Why not - because acess to that part of the city centre is absolutely chronic, and Metro North is a pipe dream that will never be built.
Find it easier to access than anywhere on the southside myself, oddly enough. Much nearer to large scale already extant transport links than any other proposed site, for starters.Green space... on a frickin' roof 40m up in the air, higher than any building within a mile? Sounds like fun on a windy day (or even a breezy one).
Never heard of something called glass?Picking a site with terrible access, that's too small, that has zero room for expansion, that requires the design of the hospital to be compromised to make it fit, that requires the construction cost to needlessly balloon to make it fit, absolutely is insane.
The design of the hospital is only going to *be* compromised due to our archaic planning regulations. There were no compromises in the original design.This really isn't hard to understand.
Let's say you have two hospitals with the same total floor area, one with 4 floors on a spacious site and this yoke with 16 floors crammed into a small space.
On the 4 floor hospital, you go in the door you are already on the same level as 1/4 of the hospital. You are far less likely to need to use stairs or a lift and if you do, chances are it's only one or two floors.
With the 16 floor hospital, you only have access to 1/16 of the hospital without changing floor. You are likely to have to go up or down several floors so stairs aren't really an option. Yes you can put in more lifts, but this wastes floor area, costs a lot of money to install and has a very large ongoing maintenance and energy cost.
I understand entirely - I also realise that its a fairly minor distraction compared to more substantive issues, and its an issue that every other hospital in large cities deals with. And indeed an issue that new build hospitals on larger sites often *choose* to have to deal with as there are other efficiencies from going up rather than out.
A large floorplan is unworkable for a hospital that's based on private rooms, as this one is, as the inner rooms - whatever they may be - would have no natural light unless you decided to lose huge amount of space for multiple atriums. More space than you'll lose to lifts.0 -
Sorry I didn't explain myself correctly . What I mean is people say that you SHOULD use public transport , that is why parking is so expensive etc and that the traffic is not relevant.
I was thinking about people who can't afford a car , what's the difference getting a LUAS or whatever to a greenfield site or getting a bus to TS/Mater site ? Or is this hospital only for people who don't drive who live in the Dublin inner city
I was actually thinking of people from Cork, Limerick, Kerry etc that don't have cars. They'd have to travel to Dublin City centre by bus or train and then out to the greenfield site unless direct transport was supplied from every townland and city.
But you did explain yourself very well, excellent points made by someone with hands on experience, not someone with a petty gripe!
I don't have they answers, but whatever happens, I genuinely hope your kid does well and my thoughts and other posters thoughts (I'm sure) are with you. I can't think of any way to help you, but if you need any advice, the Dublin forum is very helpful for parking, cheap hotels/hostels/short term apartments etc... If you have any fundraiser info, please post it up or PM me, I'd by happy to help.0 -
So what malicious motives do you imagine, then?
Not so much malicious, as that all the talk has been of the views of medics but the needs of parents do not appear to have been given any consideration at all.
Having a child in hospital is very stressful as it is, thousands of parents per year needlessly battlling gridlock every day just so this site can be used is a unique form of mass torture.Temple Street has the most urgent replacement need of any of the three and has poor services as a result. Crumlin's semi-decent access (if you've got blues) comes from one specific direction only.
So what? Nobody is arguing that Temple St doesn't need replacement. I'm not arguing that Crumlin is perfect either - but for the part of the city it serves, it has much better access than the Mater site - which is intended to serve not only the whole city, but the whole country.
Arguing off a false dichotomy is very popular with the Mind over Mater crowd - 'what about the poor childer, dey need deir hospital' well, yes they do but that's no reason to build the wrong hospital in the wrong place. Build in haste and regret at great leisure.Seeing as the main claims for moving to another site are that it'd be cheaper, I don't see how a potential 1Bn move is going to win on any factor.
Eh, you yourself said that that would include almost an entire rebuild of an adult hospital as well. Apples and oranges :rolleyes:
Good for you. But your personal anecdote is irrelevant.Find it easier to access than anywhere on the southside myself, oddly enough.
What? Buses? (and - which buses - the way DB's routes work the only place in the city accessible by one bus from everywhere is O'Connell St) and of course the buses get stuck in the traffic too in spite of bus lanesMuch nearer to large scale already extant transport links than any other proposed site, for starters.Never heard of something called glass?
It's still not proper green space. Artificial. No trees.The design of the hospital is only going to *be* compromised due to our archaic planning regulations. There were no compromises in the original design.
No, it's compromised to fit onto the site. All those floors and all those levels of underground parking wouldn't be done otherwise as they're quite simply a waste of money.A large floorplan is unworkable for a hospital that's based on private rooms, as this one is, as the inner rooms - whatever they may be - would have no natural light unless you decided to lose huge amount of space for multiple atriums. More space than you'll lose to lifts.
The 4 floor example is a bit extreme, but 16 floors is extreme too, somewhere in between would be optimum but this site doesn't allow it.Life ain't always empty.
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Not so much malicious, as that all the talk has been of the views of medics but the needs of parents do not appear to have been given any consideration at all.
Having a child in hospital is very stressful as it is, thousands of parents per year needlessly battlling gridlock every day just so this site can be used is a unique form of mass torture.
So you'd prefer that a hospital is built solely to suit parents needs and not medical needs then?
Transport to the Mater site is nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make out.So what? Nobody is arguing that Temple St doesn't need replacement. I'm not arguing that Crumlin is perfect either - but for the part of the city it serves, it has much better access than the Mater site - which is intended to serve not only the whole city, but the whole country.
Arguing off a false dichotomy is very popular with the Mind over Mater crowd - 'what about the poor childer, dey need deir hospital' well, yes they do but that's no reason to build the wrong hospital in the wrong place. Build in haste and regret at great leisure.
You can drop the strawman argument, thanks.
Except its neither the wrong hospital nor the wrong place, once people look past their desire to have it where they want it to be.Eh, you yourself said that that would include almost an entire rebuild of an adult hospital as well. Apples and oranges :rolleyes:
An adult hospital that is quite likely going to be downgraded as it stands.What? Buses? (and - which buses - the way DB's routes work the only place in the city accessible by one bus from everywhere is O'Connell St) and of course the buses get stuck in the traffic too in spite of bus lanes
Its near trains - something Crumlin, Newlands X, Tallaght are not.It's still not proper green space. Artificial. No trees.
Not worth trying to discuss this one with you then.No, it's compromised to fit onto the site. All those floors and all those levels of underground parking wouldn't be done otherwise as they're quite simply a waste of money.
Multiple floors does not compromise a design.The 4 floor example is a bit extreme, but 16 floors is extreme too, somewhere in between would be optimum but this site doesn't allow it.
Anything less than about 12 isn't possible without having an absolutely sprawling winged design which is inherently inefficient - and would require as many lifts as a much, much taller building due to distance from them.0
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