Many Catholics 'do not believe' church teachings

Dave! · 05-06-2012 9:07am #1

Hope ye don't mind me cross-posting this in A&A and here.

Probably won't come as a surprise to a lot of you.

Many Catholics 'do not believe' church teachings

CARL O'BRIEN, Chief Reporter

Tue, Jun 05, 2012

THE MAJORITY of Catholics in Ireland do not attend Mass regularly and significant numbers do not believe in key tenets of the church’s teaching, according to an Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll.

The poll results, which come as Ireland hosts the 50th Eucharistic Congress of the Catholic Church this week, show belief in the church is strongest in rural areas but falls off significantly in urban areas.

Despite the fallout from clerical sex abuse scandals, a significant proportion of the country – including non-Catholics – believe the church has had a broadly positive influence on Ireland.

The national survey was undertaken last month among a representative sample of 1,000 voters aged 18 and over.

A total of 89 per cent of respondents were Catholic. The remainder were either not religious (6 per cent), Protestant (3 per cent) or from other faiths.

Fianna Fáil supporters were most likely to be Catholic (95 per cent), followed by Sinn Féin (89 per cent), Fine Gael (88 per cent), Labour (85 per cent) and Greens (58 per cent). Overall, just under a third (31 per cent) of Catholics said they attended Mass at least once a week.

More than two-thirds attended services far less frequently. Some 39 per cent said they either never or very occasionally went to Mass. A further 20 per cent said they attended every two to three months, while 8 per cent went once a fortnight.

Those who attend Mass regularly are twice as likely to live in rural rather than urban areas. They are also more likely to be older and support Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael.

When it comes to the church’s teachings, many Catholics do not subscribe to key tenets such as transubstantiation. Almost two-thirds (62 per cent) believe the blessing of bread and wine during Mass only represents the body and blood of Christ.

Just over a quarter believe it is transformed (26 per cent).

There is division on the issue of the church’s role in education, although Labour supporters are more likely to support Government moves to loosen the church’s control of primary schools.

Also, most Catholics (59 per cent) said they are aware of the Eucharistic Congress, due to take place this week, but a very small minority (4 per cent) planned to attend.

© 2012 The Irish Times

philologos · 05-06-2012 9:57am

What would be interesting and something I think is lacking from these surveys would be to investigate whether or not there is a correlation between mass attendance and traditional RCC belief. If there isn't that would be very interesting.

Someone needs to get onto these guys and tell them to put a bit more effort into their statistics

bnt · 05-06-2012 10:18am

philologos wrote: »

Someone needs to get onto these guys and tell them to put a bit more effort into their statistics

The bit in the Irish Times is not the whole survey, it's a report on the survey. The full report is not on the Ipsos Mori website at the moment, but if it does go up, it may contain more analysis and/or the raw data so you can do your own. Put two sets of data in parallel columns in Excel, use the CORREL() function, and there's your Correlation.

If you want some more "glass half full" analysis of this survey, try this.

philologos · 05-06-2012 10:25am

Or should I say the Irish Times in picking out what is noteworthy

getz · 05-06-2012 10:29am

maybe like me they dont you they need a third party to help you pray to your god

martinedwards · 05-06-2012 11:06am

I think society has shifted a lot in the last few decades.

we live in a world where google helps up find whatever we want.

as a result, there is no longer any hidden knowledge......

so the idea that you have to go through a priest to find God is a lot harder to sell.

especially when there are... shall we call them alternative search engines?... out there which allow direct access.....

if folks even want to look for a god at all.....

joseph brand · 05-06-2012 11:35am

martinedwards wrote: »

I think society has shifted a lot in the last few decades.

we live in a world where google helps up find whatever we want.

as a result, there is no longer any hidden knowledge......

so the idea that you have to go through a priest to find God is a lot harder to sell.

especially when there are... shall we call them alternative search engines?... out there which allow direct access.....

if folks even want to look for a god at all.....

We're not as ignorant, kept in the dark. We've 'seen behind the curtain' and it's ugly.

I never listened in mass as a child, but I'd bet that the priests were able to cherry pick the parts of the bible which they deemed more palatable to the public. The 'nice' bits. The internet has in many ways, shown us the parts that were left out, the nasty bits and all the rest of the inconsistencies and the hard-to-believe stories. (eg Noah's Ark)

Table Top Joe · 05-06-2012 11:35am

Nothing surprising here,in a nutshell "most Catholics arent Catholic",at this stage the dog on the street could have told us this

Run_to_da_hills · 05-06-2012 12:48pm

joseph brand wrote: »

We're not as ignorant, kept in the dark. We've 'seen behind the curtain' and it's ugly.

I never listened in mass as a child, but I'd bet that the priests were able to cherry pick the parts of the bible which they deemed more palatable to the public. The 'nice' bits. The internet has in many ways, shown us the parts that were left out, the nasty bits and all the rest of the inconsistencies and the hard-to-believe stories. (eg Noah's Ark)

I can take it most churches preach "Noah's ark", and yes, society is currently living "as in the Days of Noah",

Cato Maior · 05-06-2012 12:56pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I can take it most churches preach "Noah's ark", and yes, society is currently living "as in the Days of Noah",

I cannot recall ever hearing a priest preaching on that topic.

philologos · 05-06-2012 12:58pm

On the Atheist / Christian debate thread, I'd be happy to know what inconsistencies you have to bring up, which parts we've cherry picked (I and others on this forum have gone extensively through the Jewish law in the past), which parts were left out of the Bible.

And you claim "the internet" showed us this. You do know there's a lot on the internet don't you? There's a lot of falsehood and lies on the internet too.

I'm up for a good discussion, but first we need to see an actual argument on the table rather than idle rhetoric. For me at present, atheism doesn't make sense of the way things really are. Therefore I don't think it is a reasonable position to hold.

Run_to_da_hills · 05-06-2012 1:09pm

Cato Maior wrote: »

I cannot recall ever hearing a priest preaching on that topic.

I'm sure some Catholics would be able to point out when that particular Gospel was read out.

"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark, And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be". Matthew 24 39

Cato Maior · 05-06-2012 1:20pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I'm sure some Catholics would be able to point out when that particular Gospel was read out.

"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark, And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be". Matthew 24 39

I used to be a Catholic and a daily communicant (as well as praying the Divine Office). I'm well aware of the Gospel. I'm only commenting that I cannot recall ever hearing a priest preach on it.

Cato Maior · 05-06-2012 1:21pm

philologos wrote: »

On the Atheist / Christian debate thread, I'd be happy to know what inconsistencies you have to bring up, which parts we've cherry picked (I and others on this forum have gone extensively through the Jewish law in the past), which parts were left out of the Bible.

And you claim "the internet" showed us this. You do know there's a lot on the internet don't you? There's a lot of falsehood and lies on the internet too.

I'm up for a good discussion, but first we need to see an actual argument on the table rather than idle rhetoric. For me at present, atheism doesn't make sense of the way things really are. Therefore I don't think it is a reasonable position to hold.

Did you post this in the wrong thread?

liveya · 05-06-2012 2:15pm

Dave! wrote: »

Hope ye don't mind me cross-posting this in A&A and here.

Probably won't come as a surprise to a lot of you.

I'd say the church teachings these Catholics reject is concerning sex. Nobody wants to hear about sacrifice and self denial these days.

PDN · 05-06-2012 2:19pm

Cato Maior wrote: »

Did you post this in the wrong thread?

No, I don't think he did. Atheists have a track record in this forum of making assertions about 'contradictions' and 'inconsistencies' - but when given the opportunity in a dedicated thread to actually address any specific contradictions they signally fail to do so.

Plowman · 05-06-2012 2:27pm

This post has been deleted.

HamletOrHecuba · 05-06-2012 8:02pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I can take it most churches preach "Noah's ark", and yes, society is currently living "as in the Days of Noah",

Take a look at the video on Transhumanism that I posted in the Bible and Conspiracies group to see just how true that is. There is plenty of proof for a global reaching Theomachic universal state which was wiped out by a massive flood that put humanity back thousands of years in terms of technology. Now again man has transgressed all limits.

philologos · 05-06-2012 9:27pm

Cato Maior wrote: »

Did you post this in the wrong thread?

No, the right thread. Responding to joseph brand.

Run_to_da_hills · 05-06-2012 9:30pm

Cato Maior wrote: »

I used to be a Catholic and a daily communicant (as well as praying the Divine Office). I'm well aware of the Gospel. I'm only commenting that I cannot recall ever hearing a priest preach on it.

I would consider that passage quite self explanatory and wouldn't need a priest to explain, one only has to look at the state of today's society and its deliberate rebellion against God

On Topic I made the choice to leave the RC rather than remain in it and not agree with many of its doctrines.

Conor30 · 05-06-2012 9:56pm

There are, in reality, quite a few Catholic atheists and Protestant atheists in Ireland!

philologos · 05-06-2012 9:59pm

Conor30 wrote: »

There are, in reality, quite a few Catholic atheists and Protestant atheists in Ireland!

??

Conor30 · 05-06-2012 10:05pm

philologos wrote: »

??

You don't get it, no?!

In other words, one's religion is as much a cultural thing as a religious belief. The old 'are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist' joke kind of sums this up.

Most people, in my opinion, don't think deeply about these things. They live life in a light-hearted way.

philologos · 05-06-2012 10:15pm

The sad thing in those situations is, those people don't really know the Gospel. They don't know what Christianity is. Knowing who Jesus is, what He stood for, and appreciating that He came to rescue sinners by His death and resurrection is far more important than the nonsense cultural labels that people might attach to themselves.

The fact that people don't think about these things is deeply tragic. Christians should be genuinely concerned.

HamletOrHecuba · 05-06-2012 10:16pm

philologos wrote: »

??

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/resignation-of-churchman-halts-heresy-trial-over-no-saviour-claim-305646.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/archbishop-secularism-not-all-bad-for-ireland-188196.html

Im surprised at your surprise.

Conor30 · 05-06-2012 10:23pm

philologos wrote: »

The sad thing in those situations is, those people don't really know the Gospel. They don't know what Christianity is. Knowing who Jesus is, what He stood for, and appreciating that He came to rescue sinners by His death and resurrection is far more important than the nonsense cultural labels that people might attach to themselves.

The fact that people don't think about these things is deeply tragic. Christians should be genuinely concerned.

That's as maybe, but it's more of a identifying label than a faith for most people. They are just not bothered thinking about it.

The Gospels and indeed the Bible as a whole, have been interpreted and misinterpreted by so many different 'Christians' to suit their own agenda. Pared down to the very basics, yes, there might be a positive message there. But how many Christian religions are truly Christian? I'm sure Jesus would wince at most the organised religions we have nowadays.

I'm not surprised by the IPSOS findings, published in the IT. There is no rationale for choosing any church over any other, simply because religion is, by definition, in spite of logic and reason.
Thus there is no obvious reason for changing church just because one no longer agrees with some or all its tenets. These people still go under the label of 'Catholic' or 'Protestant' or whatever.

philologos · 05-06-2012 10:28pm

That's what is tragic. It's more an "identifying label". It's not about real belief in Jesus. If the Bible is true, people need to believe and trust in Jesus in order to be saved. If people don't really believe that Jesus is their Saviour, and that He died to rescue them this is tragic.

The New Testament is the most authentic ancient historical text that we have in the world today. Arguments as to its reliability have by and large fallen short on this forum. We can discuss about interpretation, but what is clear is that the New Testament text has remained by and large the exact same since its first writing.

Denominations and labels fall short. This is why I call myself a Christian first and foremost and I argue for Jesus, what He taught, how He lived and what He died for us.

Conor30 · 05-06-2012 10:37pm

philologos wrote: »

That's what is tragic. It's more an "identifying label". It's not about real belief in Jesus. If the Bible is true, people need to believe and trust in Jesus in order to be saved. If people don't really believe that Jesus is their Saviour, and that He died to rescue them this is tragic.

The New Testament is the most authentic ancient historical text that we have in the world today. Arguments as to its reliability have by and large fallen short on this forum. We can discuss about interpretation, but what is clear is that the New Testament text has remained by and large the exact same since its first writing.

Denominations and labels fall short. This is why I call myself a Christian first and foremost and I argue for Jesus, what He taught, how He lived and what He died for us.

Maybe some of these people do believe Jesus is their Saviour but just don't agree with some or all the doctrines or rules of the RC Church or else just never even really think about it all, one way or other.

At the end of the day, many religions are businesses. They are also political entities too. The Vatican is a political state!

philologos · 05-06-2012 10:41pm

As for your point about "religions" being businesses. I'm not 100% convinced that this is true. Many churches simply operate on the basis of strengthening Christians in their Christian walk, and in encouraging Christians to share their Christian faith with others. I agree there are churches which can operate as businesses and they should be criticised strongly by Christians who seek to live and speak for Jesus in this world and hopefully encourage others to follow Him. In the last 5 years that I have been a Christian, as a student I was involved with the Christian Union movement on campus, I was also involved with quite a few churches in the Dublin area, and also since I've moved to London. I can say that the vast majority of people I have met are in it simply to be witnesses to the Gospel, and in the hope that people would come to salvation.

That said, it is possible to discover Jesus by looking to His example, and to looking to who He is through the Bible.

I personally amn't a Roman Catholic. I am however deeply concerned with nominalism in Christianity as much as I'm concerned with the emergence of new-atheism. I'm only concerned with defending the Gospel, and pointing people to it.

Conor30 · 05-06-2012 10:49pm

philologos wrote: »

As for your point about "religions" being businesses. I'm not 100% convinced that this is true. Many churches simply operate on the basis of strengthening Christians in their Christian walk, and in encouraging Christians to share their Christian faith with others. I agree there are churches which can operate as businesses and they should be criticised strongly by Christians who seek to live and speak for Jesus in this world and hopefully encourage others to follow Him.

OK but look at America. There are so many 'pastors' over there who have their congregations in a frenzy, while they themselves are falling over themselves with money! Religion can be big business, if you play the game right! And what about 'House of Prayer' in Ireland too - that seems very lucrative! And some other non-Christian religions are also very wealthy.

philologos · 05-06-2012 10:54pm

Conor30 wrote: »

OK but look at America. There are so many 'pastors' over there who have their congregations in a frenzy, while they themselves are falling over themselves with money! Religion can be big business, if you play the game right! And what about 'House of Prayer' in Ireland too - that seems very lucrative! And some other non-Christian religions are also very wealthy.

A minority of churches. None of which I would applaud.

My approach to Christianity is really simple. Look to Jesus' example in Scripture. This is how we can point to what Jesus would stand for and what He wouldn't stand for. Jesus strongly opposed profiteering in the name of God and stood up for it. In the Jewish temple, he knocked over the tables of moneychangers and merchants in profound anger at this profiteering (John chapter 2 for example).

Our response when we see wrongdoing in the name of Christianity shouldn't be to jettison God, or Jesus, but rather to reject the ideas of those who are twisting His message. The good thing about it is, that we do have eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life that we can look to to find out about Him, what He stood for and ultimately His death on the cross for the sin of the world, and His resurrection.

Many Catholics 'do not believe' church teachings

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