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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Ok, I'll take that back. There's the bones of new legislation set out in the document. (Heads of bills etc.)

    And if legislation is drafted around those heads of bills, people like me are screwed. We will be unfairly disallowed to take part in our sport even though we have broken no laws. Laws change, rules change , situations develop.

    This is bad news for shooters, all shooters, not just people whose guns might be banned.

    Firstly, The gardai are perfectly entitled to express their view on public firearms policy. They are also fully entitled to seek amendments to any law.

    Equally We , the sport are entitled to seek and have our opinion heard.

    then as law abiding citizens , we will abide by any given legislation. There is no "fair " or "unfair". Its used to be "fair" to use a mobile phone while driving , it snow "unfair", happens every day.

    What I find distressing, is the tone of the "outburst" of Mr Crofton.

    " a discredited Garda force is being rewarded for their unlawful handling of the firearms licensing system"

    In my view the Gardai are in no way discredited. They are charged with the implementation of a flawed piece of legislation. That does not make them " discredited". Let me state it here, I fully support our national police force.

    The fact that NARGC and in particular Mr. Crofton, persist in this attempt to denigrate the constitutional police force of this state is very unfortunate and in my view almost totally unproductive, in fact its positively counter productive

    Perhaps Mr. Croftons perspective is becoming overly personal and the campaign might benefit from him standing aside and allowing more moderate and conciliatory voices to come to the fore.

    The fact is, This sport exists purely at the "whim" of the Minister, we have no constitutional rights in this regard. Furthermore, we have little understanding or sympathy from the general public. I can just see an appeal to TDs to support "handguns" going down really well in the midst of the carnage of the water debacle.

    Ultimately , this will all be trashed out in "smoke" filled rooms, and the key is to be "sitting in that room " not screaming from the sidelines and the "inequity of it all"

    What we need is a bit of back room politicking, not attempts to publicly embarrass the Gardai. In my view ( and I said it at the time) nothing good will come from the attempts to drag the Gardai through the courts. The net result will most likely result in all of us forgoing all firearms, merely to assuage a very very small proportion of shooters.

    The report makes a very telling comment, to paraphase, that the current licensing system isn't really a product of legislation, rather the result of a series of court cases. That is ultimately going to work against us.

    Its also worth noting that , proposals are being considered to support "reloading", that comes as a result of good co-operation between the various interested bodies and stands in sharp contrast with current nargc campaigns.

    Ultimately, we are at the mercy of public perception and policy, no more then the Ward Hunt. The tolerance amongst the public is very low and quite frankly we exist in shadows. Nothing good will come from proclaiming our "rights" etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Except Joe Public is not interested

    My thread in Politics.ie has had 300 views since yesterday and mostly shooters in the 20 comments.

    It's only between us and AGS/DoJ - others see this -right or wrong - as an attempt to deflect attention from recent news stories.

    Joe Public mightn't be interested but my local TD will be when I see him.

    I'm going to meet my local TD and I'm bringing my mam, sister, my niece and as many friends and relatives as I can with me.

    He aint going to be pleased to see so many votes that could go to somebody else if things go sideways.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Firstly, The gardai are perfectly entitled to express their view on public firearms policy. They are also fully entitled to seek amendments to any law.

    I agree with you, they are entitled to their opinion. But in this case, I believe that their opinion is wrong. I believe that they are trying to railroad legislation through that will harm our sport and do absolutely nothing to reduce crime or increase public safety.
    Equally We , the sport are entitled to seek and have our opinion heard.

    Section 7 (page 13).

    "The particular issues pertinent to this Review were not raised by DOJE or An Garda Siochana at these meetings; neither have the recommendations of this draft Report been the subject of consultation with these groups, pending their consideration by both the Garda Commissioner and DOJE."

    Now correct me if I am wrong but if the Gardai were so concerned with preventing crime and maintaining public safety, don't you think that these topics would be relevent to bring up with National Shooting Bodies?
    then as law abiding citizens , we will abide by any given legislation.

    Yes, I will abide by any given legislation............but I will do my best to try prevent unfair legislation being passed.
    What I find distressing, is the tone of the "outburst" of Mr Crofton.

    I find it distressing that I am being lumped into the same category as a criminal.

    I fully support our national police force.

    So do I, but I don't support this proposal. I think it is very very unfair on law abiding shooters.
    The fact that NARGC and in particular Mr. Crofton, persist in this attempt to denigrate the constitutional police force of this state is very unfortunate and in my view almost totally unproductive, in fact its positively counter productive

    Perhaps Mr. Croftons perspective is becoming overly personal and the campaign might benefit from him standing aside and allowing more moderate and conciliatory voices to come to the fore.

    I don't know the man but I'll go hear what he has to say and make my decision then.

    I will say this though, if Mr. Crofton actions are counter productive, it doesn't change the fact that this legislation will unfairly target the law abiding section of the community and will have no effect on the criminals.
    Ultimately , this will all be trashed out in "smoke" filled rooms, and the key is to be "sitting in that room " not screaming from the sidelines and the "inequity of it all"

    It doesn't look like we will be getting into those "smoke" filled rooms.
    What we need is a bit of back room politicking, not attempts to publicly embarrass the Gardai. In my view ( and I said it at the time) nothing good will come from the attempts to drag the Gardai through the courts. The net result will most likely result in all of us forgoing all firearms, merely to assuage a very very small proportion of shooters.

    I agree, we need a bit of politicking. That's why I'm going to my local TD to let him know my concerns.

    Regarding your comment on dragging the Gardai through the courts, what other option do you have if you are being unfairly refused a licence. Do you sit there and do nothing and not get to use your sporting firearms or do you try and rectify the situation through the courts?
    The report makes a very telling comment, to paraphase, that the current licensing system isn't really a product of legislation, rather the result of a series of court cases. That is ultimately going to work against us.

    Agreed, the legislation is sh1te to be blunt about it. But I don't think that this proposal will fix the legislation. There's too many acts and SI's as it is. These proposals will decimate handgun shooting in Ireland and I believe this to be very very unfair as we aren't the section of the community going around shooting people.
    Its also worth noting that , proposals are being considered to support "reloading", that comes as a result of good co-operation between the various interested bodies and stands in sharp contrast with current nargc campaigns.

    Yes, this does look good.

    Ultimately, we are at the mercy of public perception and policy, no more then the Ward Hunt. The tolerance amongst the public is very low and quite frankly we exist in shadows. Nothing good will come from proclaiming our "rights" etc.

    Nobody has a right to a gun in Ireland and we aren't shouting this out. We are saying that we use our guns lawfully, to take part in our hobby or sport. We aren't a danger to the public so why are you unfairly targetting us in this legislation.

    If we stay in the shadows, these proposals will be passed and then there's nothing that we can do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Its great that we can debate these matters.
    There will be a meeting in Harbour House Range on Monday evening @ 7.00pm and anyone who has a gun licence for ANY type of firearm is welcome to attend, this will be an information evening where the proposed regulations will be discussed.

    Is Tommy going to "fill me in?":p


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    "The particular issues pertinent to this Review were not raised by DOJE or An Garda Siochana at these meetings; neither have the recommendations of this draft Report been the subject of consultation with these groups, pending their consideration by both the Garda Commissioner and DOJE."

    Now correct me if I am wrong but if the Gardai were so concerned with preventing crime and maintaining public safety, don't you think that these topics would be relevent to bring up with National Shooting Bodies?

    All that says is that pending the consideration of internal view, they haven't put this out for external comments. It doesn't say anywhere that they WONT. in fact it specifically points out that it didn't do the consultation. Again why see the Gardai as "out to get us". I don't see that in this document.


    I agree with you, they are entitled to their opinion. But in this case, I believe that their opinion is wrong. I believe that they are trying to railroad legislation through that will harm our sport and do absolutely nothing to reduce crime or increase public safety.

    Thats an "opinion", The Gardai have theres , They quote some specific examples of their concern. We have yet to put a cogent case together, for example why should someone be able to license a large calibre handgun, when all aspects of the sport can be accessed with small calibre. The fact is , we rode in on the back of a legal challenge. That door is being closed, thats the reality of it.
    I find it distressing that I am being lumped into the same category as a criminal.

    I see nothing in that proposal that does that, The Gardai have outlined their issues as they see it. They have not lumped anyone into anything.
    I will say this though, if Mr. Crofton actions are counter productive, it doesn't change the fact that this legislation will unfairly target the law abiding section of the community and will have no effect on the criminals.

    I don't see it as "unfair". The Gardai have a view as to the public policy regarding the personal ownership of firearms. We , the sport has to convince the Gardai, the AGS, The Minister as to our view and validity of our claims. We may win or loose this battle. We will certainly not win if we seek confrontation with the Gardai in the Courts.
    It doesn't look like we will be getting into those "smoke" filled rooms.
    No , we have thrown our toys out of the cot , several years ago, and all we've done since is screamed and screamed and screamed. Thats the tragedy of it.
    Regarding your comment on dragging the Gardai through the courts, what other option do you have if you are being unfairly refused a licence. Do you sit there and do nothing and not get to use your sporting firearms or do you try and rectify the situation through the courts?

    If I cannot convince my local superintendent, then I have no interest in dragging him into court. I find all of them ( and I have dealt with three) to be extremely reasonable, open to a chat and direct with their views. Mostly they complain about dealing with people making "demands" or being unreasonable.
    Agreed, the legislation is sh1te to be blunt about it.

    Yes, we all agree that.
    These proposals will decimate handgun shooting in Ireland and I believe this to be very very unfair as we aren't the section of the community going around shooting people.

    In my opinion centre fire pistols will have to be sacrificed to facilitate some pistol shooting. I would favour and immediate ban and hand-in of centre fires to at least allow a reasonable range of 22lr pistols to remain. ( and not just massively expensive olympic ones)

    If we persist, we will loose all handguns. Its simply an unsustainable policy to continue to insist on retaining large calibre pistols. we will not and cannot win that battle. in persisting I believe we have brought this current change in policy down upon us

    The Gardai have never claimed we are going around shooting people. they have publicised the statistics on pistols reported stolen or lost , and its that aspect that concerns them. Its a reasonable point of view.

    We are saying that we use our guns lawfully, to take part in our hobby or sport. We aren't a danger to the public so why are you unfairly targetting us in this legislation.

    Laws are not static, I used to go around talking into my mobile while driving, it was very handy, then it was made illegal, now I don't. I don't complain that its "unfair". we sound like teenagers.

    The fact is that the possession of firearms in Ireland has always been just "tolerated", and only especially for very specific purposes. With a stated policy of a unarmed uniform police force, The Gardai will always have a very high moral ground in respect of public firearms policy. Thats just the facts of life. It will be difficult for us to counter that perspective, with our current scream and shout , or see you in court policy, were not doing ourselves any favours.
    If we stay in the shadows, these proposals will be passed and then there's nothing that we can do.

    what I mean is that we must seek to get in front of key people, work in the background, lobby in private, stop dragging the process through the courts. we have to box "clever" , not try and take sledgehammers to the front door.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Made appointments to see three TDs today for next week. They are all going to get a copy of the report and recommendations to study at their leisure before I start ringing back for replies the following week.

    Beware the risen people.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    One thing I'd like to see is a breakdown of the 1293 lost and stolen firearms between 2010 and 2013.

    How many centerfire handguns?
    How many rimfire handguns?
    How many shotguns with more than 3 round capacity?
    How many centerfire rifles?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Vegeta wrote: »
    One thing I'd like to see is a breakdown of the 1293 lost and stolen firearms between 2010 and 2013.

    How many centerfire handguns?
    How many rimfire handguns?
    How many shotguns with more than 3 round capacity?
    How many centerfire rifles?

    Thats not really the issue they are hi lighting. The issue is a general comment as to the fact that a certain percentage of legally held firearms, "disappear" . They admit they don't know how many end up in criminal use, but the point is its not 0.

    We cannot win this argument by saying well look only "2" handguns ended up in criminal hands. because the simple retort is, thats fine if we ban them then at least those "2" wont the next time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Again why see the Gardai as "out to get us".
    I don't think anyone thinks the entire Garda force is doing that, but it's pretty hard to deny that individual members of the force are definitely opposed to private firearms ownership.
    We have yet to put a cogent case together, for example why should someone be able to license a large calibre handgun, when all aspects of the sport can be accessed with small calibre.
    Up until 1972, pistols of calibers up to .38 were in active use in the Olympic Games. Today, they are still in active use in the ISSF World Championships. And that's just in the most recognised-by-Joe-Public sport; there are a dozen other very large and international sports that use centerfire pistols and have for decades perfectly safely.
    That, to me at least, is not merely a cogent case, but grounds to demand that the onus of proof is not on those seeking to licence those firearms; but on those who wish to legislate to ban that.
    And I see nothing in that document that stands up to any degree of scrutiny when trying to make that case.

    Also, while the return of pistols came from legal cases, and I'm breaking no confidences by saying that wasn't the ideal route, that was the return of pistols. Prior to 1972, pistols were perfectly legal to own in this country for longer than this country existed - our firearms legislation was inherited from the previous jurisdiction in the 1924 Act, don't forget, before we wrote our own initial Firearms act in 1925 (which basicly copied out the 1924 act with minor variations).

    In my opinion centre fire pistols will have to be sacrificed to facilitate some pistol shooting.
    Honestly, I can't agree to that at all. There is no requirement to sacrifice any form of shooting at present, pistol or otherwise. The current legislation provides far more than the Gardai currently require to maintain law and order even in the face of the drug crime that's causing them so many problems. But as the recent revelations have shown, they are not effectively using their existing tools and their work ethic appears to be - for whatever reason - woefully inadaquate.
    Given those two facts, it is not reasonable to demand that firearms which have been safely licenced in this country for longer than this country has existed are suddenly an insurmountable and immediate threat to law and order.

    The Gardai have never claimed we are going around shooting people
    That is only true in strict terms. In terms that a court case alleging defamation would use, I'm not so sure. There is a reason we had a legal definition of defamation through innuendo after all.
    Laws are not static, I used to go around talking into my mobile while driving, it was very handy, then it was made illegal, now I don't. I don't complain that its "unfair". we sound like teenagers.
    While it was handy, the fact was that it was a proven cause of many preventable accidental deaths. This cannot be said of licenced firearms. You can point to gun crime, yes, but those are not licenced firearms, nor are they accidental deaths, nor would a new law prevent them (if you are willing to murder another human being, you have already exceeded the threshold required to ignore a law regarding possession of firearms and such a law is effectively useless).

    I don't support confrontational approaches to this kind of thing (I think that's no secret either), and frankly the moves that have brought us to this point were things that we knew would land us here sooner or later and we said so publicly, repeatedly, at length and to deaf ears, and I know if we continue down the NGBs-vs-The-Minister loggerheads approach (and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that someone's already writing a speech to call for lawsuits on constitutional grounds even now), then we will just lose, like every other time we've tried it; but there's a difference between seeking a cooperative compromise solution and being a doormat, and on this occasion I think a somewhat more assertive approach is required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭LIFFY FISHING


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Is Tommy going to "fill me in?":p
    Des Crofton and Michael Tope will be there to explain the documents implications to hunters and target shooters


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    According to the NARGC website front page."They are also considering restricting anything above 30 cal ....."

    So that's now deer stalkers ,F Class and vintage and classic rifles in the firing line as well...!
    No smoke with out fire folks.
    YOU HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES!
    YOUR PARTICULAR SPORT SEGMENT IS NOT SAFE!!
    GET LOBBYING,GET WRITING,GET OFF YOUR ASS AND HELP OUT TO SAVE YOUR SPORT!!

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭downonthefarm


    Just to get a discussion going..
    After reading the 64 page document from the DOJ in relation to the proposed amendment to the firearms act and legislation, & freely admitting that I own multiple firearms for hunting and target shooting..what possible reason would an individual have to licence a center fire semi automatic rifle?..
    They are not used in any capacity in target shooting.

    Home protection ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    Home protection ?

    i presume that is a joke?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Home protection ?

    (a) Not funny
    (b) For the reporters, you can't licence a firearm for that purpose in Ireland, it's not permitted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7 lucas247


    Listen while Boards is great and all for venting we all need to come together and harass the living **** out of the Taoiseach, your Local TD's, MEP's, Councilors, Superintendents, Chief Superintendents and Garda Firearms Policy section. If their from FG or Labour or a Garda we need to e-mail, write or phone them as often as possible, dont let them say their not involved, if they're a member of the party or the Gardi they can raise the issue at a higher level. Firearms owners are traditionally more conservative people who might vote FG, we need to let them know they are gona lose that vote!

    They are making this up as they go along. Its pathetic.

    Please, lets get pressure on NOW!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    BoatMad wrote: »
    A

    In my opinion centre fire pistols will have to be sacrificed to facilitate some pistol shooting. I would favour and immediate ban and hand-in of centre fires to at least allow a reasonable range of 22lr pistols to remain. ( and not just massively expensive olympic ones)

    If we persist, we will loose all handguns. Its simply an unsustainable policy to continue to insist on retaining large calibre pistols. we will not and cannot win that battle. in persisting I believe we have brought this current change in policy down upon us


    An Appeaser.."A person who will sacrifice all before him to the lions in the vain hope that they will be full up before they start eating him."
    Winston Churchill

    Speak for your own damn self !!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
    WHat the FRUP gives you the "right" to suggest that MY sport segment should be thrown to the lions ,that I have spent over six thousand EUROS in the last six years fighting to continue along with over three hundred others around Ireland should be given up so that yours can continue???:mad::mad:

    Have you learned NOTHING from how these things go in other countries ,even in the UK where the bodies decided to give up CF pistols for exactly this sort of cockeyed thinking so that Olympic style shooting could continue as it was a safe sport???Ask the UK Olympic pistol team how well THAT idea went when they get home from Switzerland from their monthly training??

    There is NO deals,no sacrificing others,no eliteism, no NOTHING this time!
    We are ALL in a very leaky lifeboat and there are no first class passengers in a lifeboat.We either hang together or we will hang seperately!
    I'm disgusted that already this sort of talk and snivelling backroom deals are being mooted already.:mad:
    Grizzly 45.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    I don't support confrontational approaches to this kind of thing (I think that's no secret either), and frankly the moves that have brought us to this point were things that we knew would land us here sooner or later and we said so publicly, repeatedly, at length and to deaf ears, and I know if we continue down the NGBs-vs-The-Minister loggerheads approach (and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that someone's already writing a speech to call for lawsuits on constitutional grounds even now), then we will just lose, like every other time we've tried it; but there's a difference between seeking a cooperative compromise solution and being a doormat, and on this occasion I think a somewhat more assertive approach is required.

    I dont disagree with anything you have said here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    lucas247 wrote: »
    Listen while Boards is great and all for venting we all need to come together and harass the living **** out of the Taoiseach, your Local TD's, MEP's, Councilors, Superintendents, Chief Superintendents and Garda Firearms Policy section. If their from FG or Labour or a Garda we need to e-mail, write or phone them as often as possible, dont let them say their not involved, if they're a member of the party or the Gardi they can raise the issue at a higher level. Firearms owners are traditionally more conservative people who might vote FG, we need to let them know they are gona lose that vote!

    They are making this up as they go along. Its pathetic.

    Please, lets get pressure on NOW!!!

    And do not wait for your NGB to do the job. They can't. Even the largest NGB hasn't got more then twenty or so people working directly for it; the only reason the protest against licence fees worked was that thousands of us were in direct grass-roots contact with our local TDs, Councillors and yelling at the Minister's office. Boards is grand for coordinating that, but nobody is going to do the job for you, you have to be the one to go talk to them. And waiting on things like NGB-scripted form letters and the like is a bad mistake; form letters get counted alright, but then they're filed in the shredder.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    in the UK where the bodies decided to give up CF pistols for exactly this sort of cockeyed thinking so that Olympic style shooting could continue as it was a safe sport???Ask the UK Olympic pistol team how well THAT idea went when they get home from Switzerland from their monthly training?
    While I agree with the sentiment Grizz, those aren't the facts of what happened. Every NGB in the UK after Dunblane agreed to wait for the outcome of the official inquiry; then "New" Labour snuck in and sold them out to win the election. Nobody over there lined up to throw anyone under a bus; everyone actually stood shoulder-to-shoulder. They just lost, it wasn't some sort of amateur-hour politicing gone wrong.

    Getting the facts right is going to be important in the near future. How many times did we see people make impassioned pleas against the TCO before 2004 only to have the Minister of the day tell the TD asking the question "Oh, actually the TCO ended in 1972, you look like an idiot because they didn't brief you correctly" and lose us another potential ally in the Dail?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    WHat the FRUP gives you the "right" to suggest that MY sport segment should be thrown to the lions ,that I have spent over six thousand EUROS in the last six years fighting to continue along with over three hundred others around Ireland should be given up so that yours can continue???

    NO your sport isn't "continuing", you didn't fight that in court, that case was lost well before the court case. What you succeeded in doing ( and actually you never went to judgement) was to get a settlement that suited you. The fact is the case to retain centre fire pistols has not been accepted.
    Speak for your own damn self !!!
    Hey, I am.
    Have you learned NOTHING from how these things go in other countries ,even in the UK where the bodies decided to give up CF pistols for exactly this sort of cockeyed thinking so that Olympic style shooting could continue as it was a safe sport???Ask the UK Olympic pistol team how well THAT idea went when they get home from Switzerland from their monthly training??

    Well they can now use "Trigger trainer". Im not aware that the firearms ban in the UK ever allowed olympic handguns, its was a blanket ban, resulting from a huge public reaction to a tragedy. The same would happen here in a heartbeat.
    There is NO deals,no sacrificing others,no eliteism, no NOTHING this time!
    We are ALL in a very leaky lifeboat and there are no first class passengers in a lifeboat.We either hang together or we will hang seperately!
    I'm disgusted that already this sort of talk and snivelling backroom deals are being mooted already

    Great, since we've been SO successful with this policy, alright then I see all the shotgun enthusiasts right behind us then. remember , we're the first class passengers, they WILL leave us to drown.


    BY THE WAY, Im not at all against the political lobbying, what I am against is this NARGC style "bull in a china shop" approach

    Since you great at quoting

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"
    ALbert Einstein


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,127 ✭✭✭✭kerry4sam


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/2014.WG.Report.pdf/Files/2014.WG.Report.pdf

    Department of Justice and Equality /
    An Garda Síochána
    Working Group on Review of Firearms
    Licensing November 2014


    It s time to get political!!!
    yubabill1 wrote: »
    The report refers to the Garda Commissioner as "he" in several places.

    "he" didn't exactly leave in a blaze of glory.

    The whole proposal seems to hinge on holders of certain firearms being a concern to public safety.

    I don't see anything about compensation for private property, but it does mention surrender of firearms to Gardaí.

    Haven't read the full thing yet, but smack very much of divide and conquer.

    The reference to a Male Commissioner is presumably due to the fact that when this was commenced, the working group was established back from Sept. 2013. when we had Commissioner Martin Callinan.
    Jesus, and they claimed Mary Lou was using distraction tactics yesterday, and then they released this themselves.

    Feckin hell.

    Take a look at this

    Head 2 This Head inserts a public safety provision as an additional ground to be considered by An Garda Síochána in deciding whether or not to grant or renew a firearms certificate
    An Garda Síochána expressed concerns that solicitors representing applicants at appeal stage are often able to assure a Judge that there is no public safety concerns regarding the application, mainly by referring to Section 4(2)b of the Firearms Act, 1925, as amended, and stating that the applicant does not pose any threat to public safety.
    An addition to Section 4 is being proposed to reflect that deciding officers need to take account of general public safety concerns in relation to a firearm and a particular type of firearm, and not just concerns specific to the particular applicant concerned.


    Basically, ags have taken a beating in the courts because they have been unable to show that a law abiding upstanding citizen with good reason to hold a firearm cannot have one. They have been slapped in the face on so many occasions in court when refusing licences that they now want to invent a new reason which has nothing to do with either the firearm or the person who is applying for the licence.

    Imagine for example if the RSA decided to implement a policy ofnrestricing the number of driving licences in an area because of the number of drivers in the area was too high, or because the crime rate had risen for example.

    Do we really trust AGS to have discretionary powers such as this ?

    And this is not just related to firearms, do people genuinely think that AGS should be able to use their own inability to tackle crime as a justification for imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens ?

    Look what happens when AGS have discretionary powers, look what they did with the discretionary element of the penalty points system.

    Look at the alleged manipulation of crime statistics, and now they want to be able to use crime statistics as a reason to refuse an application from a law abiding citizen

    Okay, so if members of An Garda Síochána are not suitably tasked for this, who would be?
    Genuine Question,

    Thanks,
    kerry4sam


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    kerry4sam wrote: »


    Okay, so if members of An Garda Síochána are not suitably tasked for this, who would be?
    Genuine Question,

    Thanks,
    kerry4sam

    Have read the proposals over last 2 days and I have to say, the whole thing is constructed in a kak-handed, inconsistent, diversionary and contradictatory way that no civil servant above Executive Officer (first rung of middle-management) would sign their name to.

    Any PR company worth their salt would make shreds of this document, the biggest problem they would have would be to actually get anybody interested.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,973 ✭✭✭Sh1tbag OToole


    Are there any politicians who are into shooting?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »

    Have you learned NOTHING from how these things go in other countries ,even in the UK where the bodies decided to give up CF pistols for exactly this sort of cockeyed thinking so that Olympic style shooting could continue as it was a safe sport???Ask the UK Olympic pistol team how well THAT idea went when they get home from Switzerland from their monthly training??

    There is NO deals,no sacrificing others,no eliteism, no NOTHING this time!
    We are ALL in a very leaky lifeboat and there are no first class passengers in a lifeboat.We either hang together or we will hang seperately!
    I'm disgusted that already this sort of talk and snivelling backroom deals are being mooted already.:mad:
    Grizzly 45.

    And for all you .22 handgun owners - the Jihadi guy who killed 13 fellow soldiers in Fort Worth, Texas used a .22 - FNH's new 5.7 x 28 calibre pistol with expanding ammo (I know, a little over .22, but not exactly a 9mm, albeit more deadly).

    And what about Hornady's 4.6mm/.17 ammo used in HK MP7? That's sub-.22 cal in AGS parlance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭badaj0z


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Have read the proposals over last 2 days and I have to say, the whole thing is constructed in a kak-handed, inconsistent, diversionary and contradictatory way that no civil servant above Executive Officer (first rung of middle-management) would sign their name to.

    Any PR company worth their salt would make shreds of this document, the biggest problem they would have would be to actually get anybody interested.

    I agree with you. The quality of the logic in the arguments is awful. It is written in the language of the tabloids. There are many examples of specific to general assertions and little statistical evidence to support such assertions.I am amazed that the senior officers in the Civil Service, especially the DOJ, would allow such a publication--but they have no top man at the moment!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    [
    QUOTE=BoatMad;93038039]NO your sport isn't "continuing", you didn't fight that in court, that case was lost well before the court case. What you succeeded in doing ( and actually you never went to judgement) was to get a settlement that suited you. The fact is the case to retain centre fire pistols has not been accepted.

    Well I'm GLAD you were present in all those court cases inc mine to know what went down..Are you a solicitor/barrister bechance??


    Well they can now use "Trigger trainer". Im not aware that the firearms ban in the UK ever allowed olympic handguns, its was a blanket ban, resulting from a huge public reaction to a tragedy. The same would happen here in a heartbeat.

    If that is soo wonderful why are they all travelling each month to Geneva to practise with real firearms ??Thats sort of like saying you can become a tour de France bike rider by playing a tour de France Xbox game??
    Great, since we've been SO successful with this policy, alright then I see all the shotgun enthusiasts right behind us then. remember , we're the first class passengers, they WILL leave us to drown.

    You dont get it do you???The shot gunners are just a likely to get it in the neck under the following part of the bill.

    Head 2 - Amendment to section 4 of the Firearms Act 1925
    Conditions of grant of firearm certificate
    Section 4 of the Firearms Act 1925 is amended:
    by the insertion of the following subsection after subsection 4(1):
    4(1A) An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate or the
    renewal of a firearm certificate for a firearm, if in the opinion of the
    issuing person, granting the certificate could prejudice public safety or
    the peace. In forming an opinion, an issuing person may have regard to
    any or all of the following :
    a) the proliferation of firearms and the nature and extent of crime
    resulting from firearms in the issuing person’s division or district as
    the case may be;
    *
    b) the calibre of the firearm;
    c) the velocity of the ammunition
    d) the size and shape (appearance) of the firearm
    e) the lethality of the firearm.


    So that means if you are living in Havemore Ave Dub 4,and there is a spate of break ins in the area.The super could say."oh well this is a high crime neighbourhood area the same as Gurrier ville .Sorry no more liscenses in this area.Hand in the Purdy there lads."
    Where are guns more likely to be stolen and what types?? Farmers shotguns with virtually zero security..Suddenly Rathnafec No where county is now a" high crime area".There goes farmer Murphys double barrel.
    It dawns on some smart boy in ADS or DOJ watching Love/Hate or some other TV trash "Oh Hey..Sawn off shotguns in DBBL configuration are leathl..." D and E of that head kicks in!! Still think the shotgunners are safe????

    Think the "white list" will be any great saving??Doubt it considering they already have a problem with target pistols anyway.and what happens when the first scrote shoots a fellow scrote with a Olympic style target pistol??You are hust as dead with a bullet from a Walther GSP or a GSG .22.. Will the GSP suddenly become the new "criminals weapon of choice" As they are pretty available in Europe for about 100 quid these days.

    BY THE WAY, Im not at all against the political lobbying, what I am against is this NARGC style "bull in a china shop" approach

    So am I ,but the trouble seems to be that talking nice and offering submissions have got precisely NOWHERE as the letter in circulation from NARGC about a meet in the DOJ that suggests any and all of our submissions will be "circular filed "and that there will be NO meaningful engagement with the parties.....Would you be surprised at the NARGC reaction??Sham consultation ,sham democracy..

    Since you great at quoting

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"
    ALbert Einstein[/QUOTE]

    Here's another one for you.
    There comes a time when silence is betrayl
    Martin Luther King.


    * I should add onto that point last year CS D Sheehan Henry St was interviewed in the Limerick Leader along with Dr Marie Cassidy where they were lauding the "dramatic drop of gun crime in Limerick,by so much as 95%" Yet in the court cases CS Sheehan under oath stated that he was worried bout the "rise" in gun crime in Limerick!!
    Not that he was belived by the court very much.But it just goes to show that they cant even tell the truth on this in any shape or form..

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,323 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    This is all really helpful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭The Aussie


    Are there any politicians who are into shooting?

    There is one down in Kerry...

    Not to sure he is the best public representative though to be fair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Even the point where the "proliferation" of firearms could be used as a basis for refusal is open to abuse. If your local super decides there are too many firearms about the place, then he just starts refusing them and renewals.

    The super could even for exampla determine that teeny firearms is the limit for his while district....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    We could get whey gun club to request a meeting with all local td's ?

    Any benefit in that, get them all into a town hall type forum and give em a brief of how craps this is not hair for usbut for any td or party that supports it.

    Town hall meetings, I'd make sure not just myself but friends neigh kits and family attend as well.


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