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How British are You?

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    "Intellectual googling"
    Naw I could bore you to fcukin tears long before Google was invented. :D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Born to Die


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Naw I could bore you to fcukin tears long before Google was invented. :D

    I know :p:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh I'm with you on the broader notion of the megalithic connections DR, but I meant the R1b isn't as homogenous as was thought. "Ours" is a later variant compared to the Basques say.
    Actually no, its the exact same variant, as it turns out, dating back to just before the last glacial maximum. That's why all the fuss about Irish people originating in Basque country a while back.

    The reverse is probably the case, all things considered. Naturally of course Anglosphere scholars would sooner bite their own arm off than say anything originated in Ireland, so heavily politicised are such studies, but really, the writing is on the megalith.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭Plazaman


    Spiffing bunch of chaps.....

    *Adjusts monocle


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    44leto wrote: »
    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Would you vote to re join the Union?

    No I think it is advantageous for Ireland to remain independent as in economically, influence, keeping our own Atlantic resources oil included, also been small keeps us out of stupid wars which Britain always end up in.

    I am happy to be out of the Union, but I am also happy with the recent state of Anglo/Irish relations. I actually enjoyed the Royal visit last year as did most Irish.


    I love this term independent

    The Irish foreign policy is produced in London as we don't want to build a physical border with northern Ireland we must copy the immigration.

    The Irish economic policy is produced in Germany as we got rid of our money to join the Euro


    So what part of Ireland is independent


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  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭Il Trap


    I love their TV and music.
    In general, I HATE their TV with a few exceptions. Alot of their music is great.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay too much attention to the "most Irish of the Irish" guff since that's a cultural reference but the long and the short of it is that the direct descendants of the people who moved here first after the ice withdrew, long before Saxons, Gaels, Brits, Franks or Celts, are still here to a great extent, unique in most of Europe and probably the world.

    So basically the Irish are inbred, is that what you are saying?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    So basically the Irish are inbred, is that what you are saying?
    See now Fred's a good example of why these things get politicised. Not having enough confidence in his own identity, he instead draws most of his self image from a union jack, like those people with the union jack on their underwear, teacups, and pillowcases. Pointing out that Ireland is genetically and culturally distinct from England is a direct assault on his borrowed self confidence, even if no reference derogatory or otherwise is made to England, so he needs to respond with abuse and accusations of vile practices.

    Its quite sad really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    See now Fred's a good example of why these things get politicised. Not having enough confidence in his own identity, he instead draws most of his self image from a union jack, like those people with the union jack on their underwear, teacups, and pillowcases. Pointing out that Ireland is genetically and culturally distinct from England is a direct assault on his borrowed self confidence, even if no reference derogatory or otherwise is made to England, so he needs to respond with abuse and accusations of vile practices.

    Its quite sad really.



    Thats the English for ya :p:pac:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    Actually no, its the exact same variant, as it turns out, dating back to just before the last glacial maximum. That's why all the fuss about Irish people originating in Basque country a while back.
    OK this is off the top of my head here so geneticists look away... :) Haplogroups have clades, subdivisions within them. Basque is one and Irish is another. The studies you link to are largely out of date and this stuff moves fast. The more recent study of these clades, discovery of L21 and a rejig of the genetic "clock" shows that the Irish population likely spread from Britain/ Northern France. A more northerly route than the Iberian myth claims. Plus northern forms of R1b are much younger than the southern Basque forms. So no they're not the same variant DR and the myth perpetrated by programmes like that "Blood of the Irish" is... well, a myth. I know this most of all, because they're able to tell my R1b is Basque/northern Spain, not Irish. If they were the exact same variant they couldn't.

    EDIT we're more related to the English and they to us than we are related to Basques or the southern R1b haplogroups.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    So basically the Irish are inbred, is that what you are saying?
    Hate to break it to you FF, so are the Welsh, Scots and English. Most of us on these islands have a narrower genetic heritage compared to mainland Europe. Both islands have among some of the highest levels of genetic disorders in Europe. Only the south east tip of the UK can claim more mixing. This is changing with all the immigrant populations so that's a good thing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    See now Fred's a good example of why these things get politicised. Not having enough confidence in his own identity, he instead draws most of his self image from a union jack, like those people with the union jack on their underwear, teacups, and pillowcases. Pointing out that Ireland is genetically and culturally distinct from England is a direct assault on his borrowed self confidence, even if no reference derogatory or otherwise is made to England, so he needs to respond with abuse and accusations of vile practices.

    Its quite sad really.

    Give it a rest Doc, its called banter. Please don't judge me by your own standards, I don't need to study my genes or constantly shout about my cultural identity to know who I am.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you FF, so are the Welsh, Scots and English. Most of us on these islands have a narrower genetic heritage compared to mainland Europe. Both islands have among some of the highest levels of genetic disorders in Europe. Only the south east tip of the UK can claim more mixing. This is changing with all the immigrant populations so that's a good thing.

    That kind of makes sense I guess, people would be more inclined to migrate over land, so islands would see less migration and an island off an island even less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    What do you love about our neighbours?
    Music, TV, film, literature, theatre, sense of humour, journalism, Viz.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Wibbs wrote: »
    OK this is off the top of my head here so geneticists look away... :) Haplogroups have clades, subdivisions within them.
    A hapolgroup is a collection of haplotypes, which are a subset of clades. Clades and haplogroups can be used interchangeably as far as I know, depending on the context, but are more usually used as the superset.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Basque is one and Irish is another. The studies you link to are largely out of date and this stuff moves fast.
    I'm the only one here linking to studies at all from the looks of things.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    The more recent study of these clades, discovery of L21 and a rejig of the genetic "clock" shows that the Irish population likely spread from Britain/ Northern France. A more northerly route than the Iberian myth claims. Plus northern forms of R1b are much younger than the southern Basque forms. So no they're not the same variant DR and the myth perpetrated by programmes like that "Blood of the Irish" is... well, a myth. I know this most of all, because they're able to tell my R1b is Basque/northern Spain, not Irish. If they were the exact same variant they couldn't.
    98% of men in the west of Ireland have the R1b marker, which dates back to the last glacial maximum, higher than anyplace else in the world. Looking at the distribution of this marker its pretty obvious there are concentric rings expanding outwards from Ireland, also mapped to megalithic sites, of which there is a paucity in Basque country as it turns out, as opposed to the west of Ireland, where there is also a global maximum of such sites.

    Now the most recent studies I can find agree and further expand on this with the marker R-M269, and once again the west of Ireland stands out.

    Now unless you've anything solid to support what you're saying at this point I'm going to go with observer bias and leave it at that. And if you do have something solid there are a few wikipedia articles that need editing.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    EDIT we're more related to the English and they to us than we are related to Basques or the southern R1b haplogroups.
    Actually, no, genetically we're more like the Welsh and Basques than the English.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    That kind of makes sense I guess, people would be more inclined to migrate over land, so islands would see less migration and an island off an island even less.


    Don't think that's true at all tbh. Go the National Museum and you will see that there was huge trading links between Ireland and the rest of Europe. In fact us being an Island might have actually increased our contact with the outside world. Ancient nations like the Basques or Hungarians managed to remain more "complete" if thats the right word.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Don't think that's true at all tbh. Go the National Museum and you will see that there was huge trading links between Ireland and the rest of Europe. In fact us being an Island might have actually increased our contact with the outside world. Ancient nations like the Basques or Hungarians managed to remain more "complete" if thats the right word.

    Trading links maybe, but obviously not the mass settlements that England had with the Romans or the Saxons. Otherwise there would be more whatchamacallits in the blood type I guess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,048 ✭✭✭✭Snowie


    In terms of lineage Im english,Welsh,Norwiegion and irish...

    My passport I irish And i was born in ireland how ever my blood is certainly not irish Im an anglo being honest I don't really no where the fvck we call home. :D

    Alll I know is it has little consequence only the factor is i was born with some stupid irish guilt ridden issue... :D

    But we do have strong military ties on booth sides of the family through ww2 and ww1 and the bowes war which i believe was fought some were in africa :cool: Other then that theres lost of un recognized artists ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭forfuxsake


    Snowie wrote: »
    In terms of lineage Im english,Welsh,Norwiegion and irish...

    My passport I irish And i was born in ireland how ever my blood is certainly not irish Im an anglo being honest I don't really no where the fvck we call home. :D

    Alll I know is it has little consequence only the factor is i was born with some stupid irish guilt ridden issue... :D

    But we do have strong military ties on booth sides of the family through ww2 and ww1 and the bowes war which i believe was fought some were in africa :cool: Other then that theres lost of un recognized artists ;)

    And which one of these is your first language?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,048 ✭✭✭✭Snowie


    forfuxsake wrote: »
    And which one of these is your first language?


    why don't you say whats on your mind....


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    A hapolgroup is a collection of haplotypes, which are a subset of clades. Clades and haplogroups can be used interchangeably as far as I know, depending on the context, but are more usually used as the superset.
    Apologies. Within the R1b group, there are subsets and the Basque marker is different to ours. We're L21. The so called "O'Neill" line IIRC. We are not the same population on that score. Related yes, but they're a different population.
    98% of men in the west of Ireland have the R1b marker, which dates back to the last glacial maximum,
    Not quite. Read your links. For a start the last glacial maximum is 20,000 years ago when Ireland was an ice cube. The clue is in the name itself. It receded 11 odd thousand years ago. The R1b marker is later. At most 8000 years, likely younger. Given there is evidence of human habitation in Ireland soon after the ice receded someone else was here. Who knows who they were.
    higher than anyplace else in the world.
    The Welsh have higher.
    Actually, no, genetically we're more like the Welsh and Basques than the English.
    No we're not. Again read your links. We're most like the Welsh, but the Basques are different. "Autosomal genetic studies, on the one hand, confirm that Basques have a very close relationship with other Europeans, especially with Spaniards, who have a common genetic identity of over 70% with Basques". "The principal conclusion is that the male Basques living today have rather recent roots of less than four thousand years, contrary to legend that proposes they lived some 30,000 years ago. Despite the ancient language, it is very likely that the present day Basques represent a rather recent Iberian population, in terms of DNA genealogy." Here's a pic showing the distances between the populations

    On the English front, define "English". The English contrary to their own perceptions aren't Saxon, or have very little Saxon DNA, less than 5% reaching 15% in extreme eastern areas. The female lines have none.
    Don't think that's true at all tbh. Go the National Museum and you will see that there was huge trading links between Ireland and the rest of Europe. In fact us being an Island might have actually increased our contact with the outside world. Ancient nations like the Basques or Hungarians managed to remain more "complete" if thats the right word.
    Oh agreed. The sea lanes were well navigated. The cultural evidence is pretty clear. The Basques weren't isolated though. They have a deep history of seafaring. Plus as the genetics show they're neither that "pure" nor ancient as once thought, though their language is.
    Trading links maybe, but obviously not the mass settlements that England had with the Romans or the Saxons. Otherwise there would be more whatchamacallits in the blood type I guess.
    Like I said England may have had more historic influxes but they left remarkably little evidence of their arrival and settlement.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    Snowie wrote: »
    why don't you say whats on your mind....

    I think he's coming on to you in a primary school kind of way :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,802 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    I was born in Britain & have a British passport though i never attended boarding school to be buggered by the top boy or participate in mutual masturbation in the dorm all the while longing for my nanny therefore i dont feel very British at all!

    Im looking to trade in my Brit paspport for an Irish one when it runs out later in the year.. it`ll be much safer should one of those al jihadi chaps hijack one of my frequent flights over to majorca.. tally ho!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Snowie wrote: »
    In terms of lineage Im english,Welsh,Norwiegion and irish...
    That list would be repeated all over these islands. Unless your English line is from the depths of east Anglia then you've likely bugger all Saxon in you at all. Norwegian is the only real outlier and there's a fair few Norse/Norman gene's in these islands however diluted.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭luckyfrank


    Most of the Brits I have encountered in my life are very stingy, I dont know why that is

    I dont think they like beggers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    I don't like how they seem to get a walk in group to every football tournament and still think they're going to win it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,048 ✭✭✭✭Snowie


    Wibbs wrote: »
    That list would be repeated all over these islands. Unless your English line is from the depths of east Anglia then you've likely bugger all Saxon in you at all. Norwegian is the only real outlier and there's a fair few Norse/Norman gene's in these islands however diluted.


    my norse blood is 3rd generation, most of my family are either military or trawlier men ;) in terms the other side is all military and his side I believe are artists were tracing him at the moment...

    my second name how ever dates from normandy 1200 ad or some ****, so yeah we are a little mixed but its a lot of celtic/norse mixing... through out the family tree were good at loosing our tempers :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Most Irish people are British to a degree, but they just don't recognise it.

    Say no more, i'll get my coat :))


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 669 ✭✭✭mongoman


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Most Irish people are British to a degree, but they just don't recognise it.

    Are you for real?

    That is kinda like saying most heterosexuals are actually gay, but they just don't realise it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mongoman wrote: »
    Are you for real?

    That is kinda like saying most heterosexuals are actually gay, but they just don't realise it.

    He believes that in every paddy, there's a repressed British citizen dying to get out and doff the cap. On the bright side, this belief does not make him go out and steal womens underwear, as far as we know.


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