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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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Comments

  • #32
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I'd imagine that sort of thing's ablative. That whole document is written like a sabot for the pistols stuff and the licencing decisions stuff, ie. discardable and expendable.


  • #33
    Deaf git
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    Maybe I'm cynical but....
    This BS is released within a few days of AGS being publicly slated in the Policing Commission report. Seriously, it sounds like AGS taking a 'strong stance' on gun crime like back in 2008 as a means of distracting attention.
    I suggest (a) Discredit the details & statistics contained (b) Discredit the motives (c) Start piling in complaints re delays, lost forms etc to the Ombudsman (d) Highlight incompetences (e) Declare no confidence in current system and unwillingness to continue as silent victims.
    If anything could be achieved by gentlemanly discussion none of the above would be required, but I'm tired of being genteel on this topic.


  • #34
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Sparks wrote: »
    I'd imagine that sort of thing's ablative. That whole document is written like a sabot for the pistols stuff and the licencing decisions stuff, ie. discardable and expendable.

    Would imagine so, but in Italy I believe they have to get the mag walls welded all along the tube by a certified gunsmith.

    From the .22 pistol experience here, that would not satisfy some.

    Like I said a few posts back, hindsight shows AGS thought the 1,800 handgun owners would reduce to nothing with the 2009 Act.

    When that didn't happen, they changed the goalposts and when they lost a large number of court appeals/JR's they went to Shatter. They really don't want citizens owning handguns.

    Even during the '70's and '80's you could have a semi auto shotgun and their own report cites the low lethality of "low velocity" shotguns.

    (Y'know what, I'd rather be hit by a high velocity 5.56 FMJ at 30 yds than an ounce-and-a-bit of low velocity buckshot from a shotgun).

    Shotguns - probably wishful thinking on working group's part.
    Maybe next time - maybe never.


  • #35
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Split out into a new thread and stickied.


  • #36
    Deaf git
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    First off, anyone know EXACTLY how many .22 licenced pistols have been stolen and not recovered since 2006? It might need a Minister's question to find out. I wonder how many AGS service pistols have been lost, if any?
    Second, if the Commissioner believed a Ruger to be suitable and not restricted in 2009 what has changed? Was the then Commissioner incompetent? Or is the current encumbent incompetent. Releasing a guideline that refers to an Annex that doesn't exist smacks of incompetence.
    How many doctors were contacted re the mental capacity of an applicant since the 9 page wonder was introduced? My guess is a very few. But if preventing another Anders Breivig was paramount it should happen regularly- I asked my GP recently if he had been contacted, he said he hadn't nor was he even aware that I owned any sort of gun nor had he ever been asked about any other patients.
    How many referees have been contacted? Or their existence verified?
    The intrusive nonsense we are subjected to needs to be highlighted.
    And the Water protestors think they have it bad.....



    Hi Mods, can this be moved to the other thread? Thanks....(i'm not good with tech)


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  • #37
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Deaf git wrote: »
    Maybe I'm cynical but....
    s(c) Start piling in complaints re delays, lost forms etc to the Ombudsman (d) Highlight incompetences (e) Declare no confidence in current system and unwillingness to continue as silent victims.

    From experiance the Garda Ombudsman is about as useful as a ashtray on a motorbike RE firearms complaints.We in Limerick have put in at least fIVE complaints against our CS and the guy keeps coming back whiter than white.Freshly whitewashed so to speak.Either that or they find some wriggle room to avoid dealing with the complaint like it being a WEEK outside their remit time limit.Sure send in the complaints ,as many as possible,maybe some brown stuff might finally stick,and they cant ignore the vast amount of complaints,but as far as I am concerned I have NO FAITH in GSOC investigating these complaints properly and /or the AGS assistant cheif comissioner doing anything about them either.Seeing that AGS /DOJ has decided that I am not to be trusted with my firearms I absolutely have NO trust anymore in any Irish govt body regarding firearms matters anymore.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #38
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    So what's the best course of action for us to take now?

    Serious question.


  • #39
    clivej
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭clivej


    I don't like to say "I told you so" from this thread in 3/2/14 that ran to 701 posts

    BUT

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88814349
    post 86

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88814349&postcount=86


  • #40
    .243
    Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭.243


    clivej wrote: »
    I don't like to say "I told you so" from this thread in 3/2/14 that ran to 701 posts

    BUT

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88814349
    post 86

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88814349&postcount=86
    well then why say it,
    dragging up the past aint gonna solve our future


  • #41
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    clivej wrote: »
    I don't like to say "I told you so" from this thread in 3/2/14 that ran to 701 posts
    You get to say that when you show the documents you had back then.
    At which point, we will all be asking "Why, if you had them, did you not release them and let us have a headstart on all of this, instead of treating everyone like children in a way far worse than the AGS do?"


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  • #42
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    So what's the best course of action for us to take now?

    Serious question.

    IMHO - Take the initiative.

    Grizzly said it earlier - Big Brother does not trust its citizens:

    How does some guy with 4 points on his licence and the 3 month's tax just out, maybe hasn't registered with IW, feel when he sees the State enacting legislation to prevent squeaky-clean, vetted guys (that's us, BTW) committing future crime?

    Get the public on our side first and work together from there.

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/231878-licensed-gun-owners-threat-public-safety-public-consultation-underway.html


  • #43
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    If Frannie and Noreen think it was loud in the Dail when this was first mooted this time last year[Why is this sht always around the end of the year??:mad:]
    They had better get their Peltors on as there should be now a non let up of coherent noise from us all about this via emails,letters ,dail questions,visible protests[for once].It has been admitted by their dept heads that any submissions by us are just going to be politely recived and dumped in the bin,as they openly admitted in a meeting minute that these consultations with intrested parties will be "sham consultations":mad: What kind of a freakin country is this at all??:mad::mad:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #44
    clivej
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭clivej


    Sparks wrote: »
    You get to say that when you show the documents you had back then.
    At which point, we will all be asking "Why, if you had them, did you not release them and let us have a headstart on all of this, instead of treating everyone like children in a way far worse than the AGS do?"

    I didn't have any documents but was saying it as I was told by those that knew.

    And still ppl would not believe this would happen, as you did not.

    Sparks I'm not getting into a slagging match over this. I have firearms that they are looking to take from me. You do not.


  • #45
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    clivej wrote: »
    I didn't have any documents but was saying it as I was told by those that knew.
    Then ask them what I just asked you.
    You do not.
    Well, I've not seen "I'm alright Jack" inverted before, that's a new one.
    So if I don't have firearms mentioned by the AGS, should I not do anything?
    (Hint: Read the ISSF rules some day. The ones pointing out that we compete with centerfire pistols up to .38 calibre are interesting.)


  • #46
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Ah, jaysus lads - come on, will ye.

    BTFH, we're all big enough.

    AND nobody gives a f**k about %who said %he said% anymore after today.


  • #47
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    I see they're also using the argument of how many licensed firearms are used in crime by stating that many firearms used in crimes are never recovered so they can't say if they were legally held but stolen and used in crime.

    Far as i know in some countries when you buy a new firearm it comes with a spent casing. This is a casing from a test shot fired and kept in a database to reference against any ballistics testing from any possible future crime. So simple and effective.

    I reckon we're shagged and I hope years down the line when it's seen that the curtailing of responsible firearms ownership had absolutely no impact on gun crime that someone is held to task. But I doubt that will ever happen.

    In the meantime if someone could advise me on how to go about fighting this please let me know.


  • #48
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Heckler wrote: »

    In the meantime if someone could advise me on how to go about fighting this please let me know.

    Handguns and semi autos have been used for mass murders in other countries - ban them before the same happens here

    Compare with

    Muslims are fighting Jihad in other countries - deport them all before the same happens here.


  • #49
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Handguns and semi autos have been used for mass murders in other countries - ban them before the same happens here

    Compare with

    Muslims are fighting Jihad in other countries - deport them all before the same happens here.

    I understand your frustration but this thread is going to be viewed by god knows who so lets leave things like muslim and jihad out of it. Only gives fodder to the anti-firearm contingent. I think its imperitive that we all keep our cool.


  • #50
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Jesus, and they claimed Mary Lou was using distraction tactics yesterday, and then they released this themselves.

    Feckin hell.

    Take a look at this

    Head 2 This Head inserts a public safety provision as an additional ground to be considered by An Garda Síochána in deciding whether or not to grant or renew a firearms certificate
    An Garda Síochána expressed concerns that solicitors representing applicants at appeal stage are often able to assure a Judge that there is no public safety concerns regarding the application, mainly by referring to Section 4(2)b of the Firearms Act, 1925, as amended, and stating that the applicant does not pose any threat to public safety.
    An addition to Section 4 is being proposed to reflect that deciding officers need to take account of general public safety concerns in relation to a firearm and a particular type of firearm, and not just concerns specific to the particular applicant concerned.

    Basically, ags have taken a beating in the courts because they have been unable to show that a law abiding upstanding citizen with good reason to hold a firearm cannot have one. They have been slapped in the face on so many occasions in court when refusing licences that they now want to invent a new reason which has nothing to do with either the firearm or the person who is applying for the licence.

    Imagine for example if the RSA decided to implement a policy ofnrestricing the number of driving licences in an area because of the number of drivers in the area was too high, or because the crime rate had risen for example.

    Do we really trust AGS to have discretionary powers such as this ?

    And this is not just related to firearms, do people genuinely think that AGS should be able to use their own inability to tackle crime as a justification for imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens ?

    Look what happens when AGS have discretionary powers, look what they did with the discretionary element of the penalty points system.

    Look at the alleged manipulation of crime statistics, and now they want to be able to use crime statistics as a reason to refuse an application from a law abiding citizen


  • #51
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Just on how we react to this, the first thing we should be doing is getting the support of all country sports orgs, including coursing, racing etc. We have supported and stood by them when needed, so we need to get their support now also.


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  • #52
    LIFFY FISHING
    Registered Users Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭LIFFY FISHING


    Just to get a discussion going..
    After reading the 64 page document from the DOJ in relation to the proposed amendment to the firearms act and legislation, & freely admitting that I own multiple firearms for hunting and target shooting..what possible reason would an individual have to licence a center fire semi automatic rifle?..

    I stand corrected.... seemingly all be it not common or regularally shot there is such a competition.
    They are not used in any capacity in target shooting.


  • #53
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    They are not used in any capacity in target shooting.

    WRONG!!!!!!!:mad:
    They are used in Bullseye 360,Three position shoots, and have been used in open class shoots here in Ireland over the last three years.It was also accepted in the Limerick DC [mentioned in the 64 page report] Sept 2013 that those competitions are prefectly acceptable and were viewed and filmed in the presence of CS D Sheehan, DI Brookes,and Sgt P Greene.who conceeded that this was a ligit type of competition.

    EDIT
    seemingly all be it not common or regularally shot there is such a competition
    .
    They are also shot once a month these days in Midlands and in An Riocht it is a monthly three position shoot for classics,and semis.So yeah,they are pretty common,and is spreading to team level and inviting other clubs now in bullseye 360.

    Lets not start this utter BS of "why would anyone want an assault rifle" now.It is counterproductive ridicilous and flying in the face of reality that these are the next generation of sporting rifles out there. The gun grabbing Gardai and govt are trying King Canute like to hold back the tide of modern sporting firearms that all other EU countries are accepting as a ligit and useful firearm.Even the UK with its much vaunted "assault rifle ban" is accepting that the form of the modular sporting rifle is here to stay no matter what.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #54
    Lotharmike
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Lotharmike


    RFD's must be in a state of shock with that DOJ Doc.I was about to order a Sauer 303 for the new year that now is in tatters.Really disillusioned with the whole process now to be fair. FUBAR springs to mind in relation to sport shooting in Ireland.


  • #55
    German pointer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭German pointer


    LIFFY FISHING wrote: »
    Just to get a discussion going..
    After reading the 64 page document from the DOJ in relation to the proposed amendment to the firearms act and legislation, & freely admitting that I own multiple firearms for hunting and target shooting..what possible reason would an individual have to licence a center fire semi automatic rifle?..
    They are not used in any capacity in target shooting.

    They are going afters guns that they see as the easy ones to justify to Joe public if they get them they will be after your centerfire next and then they will come after your rimfires and shotguns

    It doesn't matter what firearm a person has. If they bought it they think its the best firearm to suit their needs and who are we or the AGS to say you don't need that firearm for your needs try this less dangerous looking one. It doesn't matter what it looks like its how the person uses it,


  • #56
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    German pointer wrote: »
    They are going afters guns that they see as the easy ones to justify to Joe public if they get them they will be after your centerfire next and then they will come after your rimfires and shotguns

    Except Joe Public is not interested

    My thread in Politics.ie has had 300 views since yesterday and mostly shooters in the 20 comments.

    It's only between us and AGS/DoJ - others see this -right or wrong - as an attempt to deflect attention from recent news stories.


  • #57
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Whats concerns me greatly is the whole - anti gardai thing going on at NARGC. Surely the key is to try and insert ourselves into the consultation process. That not going to go well if we seen screaming at the Gardai


  • #58
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Whats concerns me greatly is the whole - anti gardai thing going on at NARGC. Surely the key is to try and insert ourselves into the consultation process. That not going to go well if we seen screaming at the Gardai


    I'm not as anti Gardai as the NARGC seem to be but after these proposals, I have lost faith in the top brass of the Gardai.

    These new rules are only going to penalise law abiding citizens who aren't doing anything wrong in the first place.

    The Gardai have basically said "Fcuk You" to law abiding shooters like me who take part in and enjoy our chosen sport. They have no interest in consulting with us. We were assured that there would be consultation.............. I wonder when that's taking place seeing as the legislation has already been drafted.

    And just for the record, I'm not anti Gardai. I just have a problem with them picking on me, a law abiding target shooter.

    They should be targetting the criminals and not people like me.


  • #59
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    I not seen any draft law, Ive seen the document recommending one and suggesting various amendments , but no actual proposed law.

    If there is a proposed law, the issue has passed out of the domain of the Gardai and into the political one.


  • #60
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    BoatMad wrote: »
    I not seen any draft law, Ive seen the document recommending one and suggesting various amendments , but no actual proposed law.

    If there is a proposed law, the issue has passed out of the domain of the Gardai and into the political one.


    Ok, I'll take that back. There's the bones of new legislation set out in the document. (Heads of bills etc.)

    And if legislation is drafted around those heads of bills, people like me are screwed. We will be unfairly disallowed to take part in our sport even though we have broken no laws.

    This is bad news for shooters, all shooters, not just people whose guns might be banned.


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  • #61
    LIFFY FISHING
    Registered Users Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭LIFFY FISHING


    Its great that we can debate these matters.
    There will be a meeting in Harbour House Range on Monday evening @ 7.00pm and anyone who has a gun licence for ANY type of firearm is welcome to attend, this will be an information evening where the proposed regulations will be discussed.


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