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The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

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    #122
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    It was the stuff on Dany's arc that blew me away tbh. I've read the book twice and still hadn't picked up on the subtleties of the Meereneese politics that flip the entire arc on it's head...


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    #123
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Dang that Meereenese blog is blocked here at work. Time to read it on my phone.


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    #124
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wow after reading that I too think Jon may actually be dead. He aint coming back as the same person that's for sure.


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    #125
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Wow after reading that I too think Jon may actually be dead. He aint coming back as the same person that's for sure.

    I hope he isn't dead.

    But so far, I subscribe to his Meereen theories. (only on part II)


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    #126
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Wow after reading that I too think Jon may actually be dead. He aint coming back as the same person that's for sure.
    He could get the lady stoneheart treatment. An anger filled zombie bastárd would be a fresh idea. Actually now that I think of it, imagine a half dead warg?? Jaysus the possibilities are endless!


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    #127
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Nah, Jon's warged into Ghost and will be revived some way that involves that. His analysis of Jon's character and decision making is spot on though: another boy raised by Ned who's sense of justice and honour is his downfall. Jon's "ides of March" ending to ADWD is just Martin's means of freeing him up to fulfill his birthright as one of the three heads of the dragon imo.

    Add the changed, darker Danaerys post-Meereen and a post-revival Jon who's pissed off at what he'd see as petty politics / bigotry preventing him doing what he sees as "just" and right and you have two characters ready to jump on dragon-back and "set Westeros to rights" in a hail of fire and blood. The question remains, who's the third head: will Aegon turn out to be a real Targaryen? Or will some twist of fate let it be (George's own favourite character) Tyrion?


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    #128
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Tyrion?

    I hope its not Tyrion...

    I hope all the Lannisters, stay Lannisters (and die Lannisters), not turn out to be Targaryens.

    I suspect there will only be 2 Dragon Riders anyways, with one Dragon being killed in the story somewhere, or Bran controlling the third.


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    #129
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Nah, Jon's warged into Ghost and will be revived some way that involves that. His analysis of Jon's character and decision making is spot on though: another boy raised by Ned who's sense of justice and honour is his downfall. Jon's "ides of March" ending to ADWD is just Martin's means of freeing him up to fulfill his birthright as one of the three heads of the dragon imo.

    Add the changed, darker Danaerys post-Meereen and a post-revival Jon who's pissed off at what he'd see as petty politics / bigotry preventing him doing what he sees as "just" and right and you have two characters ready to jump on dragon-back and "set Westeros to rights" in a hail of fire and blood. The question remains, who's the third head: will Aegon turn out to be a real Targaryen? Or will some twist of fate let it be (George's own favourite character) Tyrion?

    GRRM said the ending will be bittersweet. I don't think the Imp is gonna make it. Hope he does though, id love to see him slice Cercei up (presuming she survives her upcoming trial). Mon ta fúck George, finish the feckin books.....


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    #130
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Jaime will kill Cersei, he's the younger twin and therefore the Valonquar...

    I'd prefer not to see Tyrion on dragon-back but it wouldn't surprise me. I would like to see him take Casterley Rock though and reckon he'll be a Targaryen ally by the end-game.


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    #131
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    So is everyone decided on the identity of Jon's parents? R & L ?


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    #132
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I think it's generally accepted. TBH, if it turns out not to be, I suspect it'll be because it was figured out and George RR Martin changes it as a result...


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    #133
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    intellectual dosser wrote: »
    So is everyone decided on the identity of Jon's parents? R & L ?

    Shur didn't George all but confirm that "The most popular theory on Jons parentage is true?". He said something like that anyway.


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    #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I think it's generally accepted. TBH, if it turns out not to be, I suspect it'll be because it was figured out and George RR Martin changes it as a result...

    Do you think we'll find out about it in this book via a Weirdwood with Bran? I wonder when others will find out.

    I think the 3rd head of the dragon will be Tyrion actually. I didn't see Jon being the 2nd I thought it would be Bran..... we shall see


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    #135
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Dany is Fire, Jon is Ice, their working together to defeat the others is the Song... or something like that.

    I'm not sure how we'll find out about Jon's parentage, Howland Reed always seemed to be the key, Bran in the Weirwood seems too easy a tool to use for exposition, I'm still not sure I like where his arc is going.... I half expect Bran to end up on the side of the Others. Not quite sure how, but I'm starting to think of him as the Anakin Skywalker of the story who'll be tempted over onto the "dark side" by Bloodraven...


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    #136
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Just spotted on http://grrm.livejournal.com/ that the preview chapter included in the Mass Market Paperback of ADWD is Barristan I. :)


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    #137
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Just spotted on http://grrm.livejournal.com/ that the preview chapter included in the Mass Market Paperback of ADWD is Barristan I. :)

    Dang, was hoping for a new sample chapter.


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    #138
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    TBH, I think he's almost revealed too much of TWOW at this stage. Just wish he'd take a leaf out of Sanderson's book, forget about editing the Wild Cards stuff etc. and focus on finishing the series.


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    #139
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Sleepy wrote: »
    ..... forget about editing the Wild Cards stuff etc. and focus on finishing the series.

    I think HBO seem to be taking up a tonne of his time with TV show related stuff.


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    #140
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    He's doing promotion work with them and "consulting" on the show but I really don't think it could be that time intensive... the producer credit would seem to be more a contractual thing than a sign of active participation...

    It's his endless involvement with side projects such as the figurines, replica swords, artwork for calenders etc., editing of the Wild Cards series and various anthologies, attending endless cons that seem to take up an awful lot of his time from what I can see.


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    #141
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,846 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    If he's done by 2020 at this stage it'll feel like a triumph. Hoping for 3-4 years time though.


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    #142
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    5starpool wrote: »
    If he's done by 2020 at this stage it'll feel like a triumph. Hoping for 3-4 years time though.

    Surely that's too long? I am expecting a mid 2015 release, the TV series will be finished in 4 years, I expect him to at least give us this book before the TV show writers pretty much ruin the series for us, regardless of whether GRRM has any input with regards to how it ends.


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    #143
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Honestly, I'd wouldn't be surprised to see it land around Christmas of next year. He moved a lot of chapters that he'd written for Dance into it so he had a good head-start on the book and reckoned this one would be simpler than the previous 2. Looking back to the first 3 books, he finished each of them in 2 years or so before he wrote himself into a corner with AFFC and Dance that took him 11 years to work his way out of (the need to start-over on AFFC and the Meerenese knot being the cause of this).

    Obviously he's busier now with other commitments than he was when doing the first 3 books. It's been 15 months since Dance was released at this stage so if we assume he's got the head start, a simpler book to write in terms of structure at least and allow a 50% time-drag for his other commitments to give a writing time of 3 years I think it's fair to expect it to be released by July 2015 at the latest.

    I wouldn't bet anything of consequence on it though: GRRM has failed to predict his deadlines enough times for us to know the futility of trying to do it!


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    #144
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,846 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Surely that's too long? I am expecting a mid 2015 release, the TV series will be finished in 4 years, I expect him to at least give us this book before the TV show writers pretty much ruin the series for us, regardless of whether GRRM has any input with regards to how it ends.

    I mean for the final 2 books, not just the next one. I'm hoping the next one will be 2015 at the latest. Surely a book every 3 years should be doable, even for Martin? I know the last couple of gaps have been much bigger, but hopefully the threat of the tv show overtaking book events might hurry him up. I'm guessing it is planned for a somewhat joint release of last book and last season (however many that might be).


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    #145
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    To speed up the process, he could do with killing off a load of POVs. There are far too many now.


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    #146
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    I think the fact that he has released/publicly spoken about certain chapters shows that he has most of WOW written. When a writer discloses information about a story they give up their ability to go back and change it. I don't think Martin would have divulged the information unless he knew where everything was going.

    It seems all he should have left to do is to complete and revise. 2015 is giving him an awful amount of time IMO.


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    #147
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Just a question regarding its release, or books in general. Do they come out in Hardcover and Kindle at the same time?

    Or is the Kindle later?


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    #148
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,846 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    Mr Freeze wrote: »
    Just a question regarding its release, or books in general. Do they come out in Hardcover and Kindle at the same time?

    Or is the Kindle later?

    The last book in this series was released on Kindle at the same time as hardback.


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    #149
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Anyone else think he's going to really struggle to tie up some of this stuff in just 2 books? Bran and Arya took a long time to get where they are, it would take a massive leap in their arcs to get them into the picture for the end-game.

    That's not to mention the myriad other characters - that may be more or less important than Bran and Arya - that are at various stages of their arcs but will need to come a far way to be big players in the story. Sam in the Citadel, Jamie and Cersei and her prophecy, Aegon and a new war down south with Griff, whatever the **** is going on with Stannis and the Bastard.

    Then there's the Others. The battle with them will have to take a book at least to do them the justice of their billing as the biggest threat the realm has ever faced.

    Unless the two books are around 2000 pages each, I think we might see one more in the end.


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    #150
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    Anyone else think he's going to really struggle to tie up some of this stuff in just 2 books? Bran and Arya took a long time to get where they are, it would take a massive leap in their arcs to get them into the picture for the end-game.

    That's not to mention the myriad other characters - that may be more or less important than Bran and Arya - that are at various stages of their arcs but will need to come a far way to be big players in the story. Sam in the Citadel, Jamie and Cersei and her prophecy, Aegon and a new war down south with Griff, whatever the **** is going on with Stannis and the Bastard.

    Then there's the Others. The battle with them will have to take a book at least to do them the justice of their billing as the biggest threat the realm has ever faced.

    Unless the two books are around 2000 pages each, I think we might see one more in the end.

    In his 11 chapters in Dance Tyrion was able to get from Westeros to Mereen via a pretty circuitous route. Ayra should be able to go the few hundred miles to Westeros in 1 or 2.
    I'm not sure Bran is going anywhere.


    There's no way it'd take an entire book to show any battle in the series. They showed the battle at the wall from 1 point of view (Jon's) in, I think, 3 or 4 chapters (including the Magnar of Thenn's sneak attack).
    If such a battle takes place, in all likelihood, there will be several points of view focusing on it. Even if it's enormous I can't see how there'd be much more than 10-15 chapters. It'd just get boring.


    I think the lethargic style of writing in the last 2 books has made people a bit more jaded. I'd be surprised if it stays that way. There's already been so much lore and exposition.

    I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the next book we've lost Barristan, Victarion, Areo Hotah and one of Theon or Asha. We'd already lost Quentyn and Jaime and Brienne are likely to be merged given they're in both the same place (or else they'll have half the number of chapters each to give both points of view).


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    #151
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Even his wife reckons it'll be 3 books. I saw a video somewhere on-line before of him being asked about being able to finish in 2 books and he was stating that he stands by it whilst she held up 3 fingers behind his back!


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