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Connor Murray - Kidney's new TOL?

13567

Comments

  • #62
    buck65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    I wonder if Reddan had started last week would he have made the same impression?
    Italy are ****e, always are, they make good players seem ordinary and that's as much as they do. Yes we wore them down and pulled away after 50 mins but we usually always do in Dublin.
    Murray has alot to learn and needs to speed up his game and look for the killer pass rather than seek contact all the time. Reddan is a fine SH but blows hot and cold too.
    But dropping him (Murray)from the panel would be nuts at this stage. Alternating both is probably the way to go.
    And the title of this thread is a joke, O Leary was a fine player for us until his injury and has struggled to stay fit and find form since, the slagging he gets here is too severe, it's not his fault that he kept getting picked whilst out of form.


  • #63
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    A few reasons - I think SOB is wasted at 7, it's just not his position at all. Ferris cant play any other backrow position afaik, and I have seen SOB play really well there for Leinster. It also means Heaslip being off the team which might give him the kick up the arse, and it would make space for someone who can actually play the 7 position, or at least try out some other options, POM being one such option.

    I completely agree with your point about us having effectively 3 very similar players, particularly SOB & Ferris, and all three doing very similar things.

    Yeah, but SOB has played really well at 7 for Leinster as well. Infact, better at 7 than at 8. His sniping from the base of a scrum was immense, and that earned him a couple of tries last season when covering for Heaslip. But his decision making at 8 is suspect. One of the reasons why Heaslip is such a fine number 8, he's got a rugby brain.

    Aside from the HEC final last season, can you think of one time SOB has played badly at 7 for Leinster? I can't. He was made look particularly good at 6 in the second half of the HEC final because he was given so much space. Most teams wouldn't afford him that luxury.

    He's a fine 7. International standard, and probably in the top 8 in the world.

    Which brings me back on topic... isn't this about Murray?

    You know what really grinds my gears? Murray thinks he's a 7.


  • #64
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,421 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Murray tried to make breaks, gets caught early, ends up at the bottom of rucks and is missing for a couple of phases so we end up with no SH.

    Within 3 minutes of Reddan coming on he made a clear line break, Murray did not do this once.

    nerd69 - if you cant see that Murray is playing poorly and needs to be dropped then there's not much hope for you :) I dont think anyone is suggesting that we go all out attack against France, they are suggesting we pick a competent SH. Reddan is playing a lot better than Murray at the moment, and Reddan is not poor defensively.


  • #65
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭nerd69


    .ak wrote: »
    You know what really grinds my gears? Murray thinks he's a 7.

    ya your right so did bod neither should ever have gotten an ireland cap:)


  • #66
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Seph503 wrote: »
    I think being subbed at the 50min mark was an indication that Kidney knew he wasn't having a good game, rather than waiting until the usual 60-65min mark of swapping the half backs, as opposed to what he suggested in his interview about the forwards providing cleaner ball (and not Reddan) for improving our game.


    don't know about that. boss is usually subbed around the 50 min mark when he and reddan are playing for Leinster. boss started the two french games in the heineken cup and he was subbed at 50 mins in the first game and 56 mins the second game.

    In Munster's last two games against Northamton and castres, murray was subbed at 60 and 56 mins.


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  • #67
    smurphy29
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭smurphy29


    nerd69 - aside from the grammatical and spelling shockers there, that is nonsense. Almost the first thing Reddan did on saturday was to make a break. He also took a quick tap penalty and set us off on attack in opposition 22.

    Reddan is far from flawless, but what he does better than anyone, on his good days, is set a quick tempo. To say that France 'won't have to keep an eye on him' is the just dreamed-up rubbish that doesn't make any sense at all.

    The only way we can play France is to get quick ball and attack them. Get into a slugfest and they will just grind us down with their powerful scrums and ferocious tight play. They're a hard nut to crack either way, but you have to hope for a bit of 'volatility' in the game and to somehow get ahead on the scoreboard and get them to start doubting themselves.


  • #68
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭nerd69


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Murray tried to make breaks, gets caught early, ends up at the bottom of rucks and is missing for a couple of phases so we end up with no SH.

    Within 3 minutes of Reddan coming on he made a clear line break, Murray did not do this once.

    nerd69 - if you cant see that Murray is playing poorly and needs to be dropped then there's not much hope for you :) I dont think anyone is suggesting that we go all out attack against France, they are suggesting we pick a competent SH. Reddan is playing a lot better than Murray at the moment, and Reddan is not poor defensively.

    i see your point and if reddan started i wouldnt be upset about it at all i just think people are giving him a hard time when he doent really deserve it he made 1 or 2 poor calls it happens but to say reddan changed the game is wrong in my opinion italy have consistantly been run all over at that point of the game this year it is there legs as there not used to playing that expansive a game reddan is by no means worse but i dont think hes better either just different.
    also reddan is an ok defender but not as good if you were a french back row who would you rather run at


  • #69
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    nerd69 wrote: »
    1. every team that italy played have pulled away aound 60 mins fresh legs at 60 and a player thats played 40-50 mins are very different thats why benches are so important

    I'm talking about the speed of the ball off the ruck and the momentum it gave the receivers. Murray managed it once in the first half, he got quick ball and gave it instantly out wide with a clean sharp pass. Momentum beilt and we gained ground. But he only managed it once, too often to was indecisive and slow about moving the ball. I know Italy tiring contributed to that but the difference at SH was clear the instant Reddan came on.
    2. murray adds another player france have to keep an eye on reddan docent make close to as many breaks this is why peter stringer is not longer relevant

    Reddan is well able to snipe, as is Boss. Murray is being picked purely on his defensive capabilities not because of his attacking, ball delivery or game management. We are swapping any chance of getting on the front foot for an extra defender.
    3. i dont think we can go all out attack against france like that in loose play were good but there second only to nz they will destroy us

    You dont have to go all out attack but you cant expect to defend for 60 against France and then hit them when they tire like Italy. They wont tire, if given posession which will happen with Murray killing momentum and forcing Sexton to kick they will hammer our line like Wales did and we'll be banjaxed from the word go. We need to attack and score if we are to stand a chance of winning. We need fast ball to gain momentum so the ball carriers can break the gain line and we push forward.


  • #70
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    nerd69 wrote: »
    ya your right so did bod neither should ever have gotten an ireland cap:)

    The difference is BOD could turn ball over, or handle himself in the breakdown.

    Murray just gets sucked into it, and then we have POC acting as SH doing his best impression of hot-potato...


  • #71
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    I really hate lazy comparisons, surprised this thread has gotten so much attention


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  • #72
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    nerd69 wrote: »
    ya your right so did bod neither should ever have gotten an ireland cap:)

    You do know what position Murray plays?


  • #73
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭nerd69


    ok ok maby i got a bit carried away i do think reddans an outstanding sh just think murrays gettin more stick than he deserves


  • #74
    Hyperbullet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭Hyperbullet


    The guy has one bad game and suddenly everyone is jumping down his throat.

    He's 22, had a decent world cup, has been playing great for Munster this season and has the potential to be a world class scrum half. He needs experience, and he needs experience of having bad days as well as good ones.


  • #75
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    WeleaseWoderick wrote: »
    I'd love to know where this thing of Heaslip needing a kick up the ass to play better comes from?

    There are a number of George Hook-esque characters elsewhere on the internet who dislike Heaslip and come up with a loads of spoofs about him. Then people with little working knowledge of rugby read what these eejits write and think it sounds intelligent so they parrot it elsewhere. There really is no basis for it at all.

    Anyway, regarding Murray: Bags of potential but Reddan needs to start ahead of him. He just isn't international level quite yet but I believe he will get there. I'd like to see him work on his decision making ability and also on his management of the game, especially in working the tempo of a match. He is quite a physical player and I'm impressed by his courage to run straight into guys twice his size but 9 times out of 10 that isn't what you need from a scrummie.


  • #76
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Hyperbullet wrote: »
    The guy has one bad game and suddenly everyone is jumping down his throat.

    He's 22, had a decent world cup, has been playing great for Munster this season and has the potential to be a world class scrum half. He needs experience, and he needs experience of having bad days as well as good ones.

    Firstly, judging by the majority of the comments on this thread (aside from the OP), the majority of people admit he has bags of potential.

    But the thing is it isn't just 'one game'. He's consistently slow every time he's played for Ireland. It's not hat he's bad, it's more that he's not getting the basics right and more importantly he's not getting the tempo right.

    You're right tho. He needs experience. But dumping him into international matches on the starting 15 is not the way to do it. He should be on the bench for the rest of the 6N, and learn how to take the reigns of the team when he doesn't have his back against the wall and he's not spending 10 seconds at ruck panicking.


  • #77
    Catalpa1
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Catalpa1


    Murray did okay on Saturday, his quick pass led to Bowe's 1st half try. Needs to quicken up the service a bit, but he is doing alright. Why not just chop and change like Leinster do? Murray for the first half/50 minutes and Reddan when the game opens up?


  • #78
    Higher
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    Hyperbullet wrote: »
    The guy has one bad game and suddenly everyone is jumping down his throat.

    He's 22, had a decent world cup, has been playing great for Munster this season and has the potential to be a world class scrum half. He needs experience, and he needs experience of having bad days as well as good ones.

    ONE bad game?

    What game has been good in for Ireland? In the world cup he was terrible against USA, poor when he came on against Australia and utterly dreadful against Wales


  • #79
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,421 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    In fairness, there is a bit more to the Heaslip thing than that. I think it's fair to say that he's not having the obvious impact on games that he was having at all levels a couple of years back, or when he first hit the scene.

    My own belief is that his game has changed somewhat, he does more dirty work on the ground, more stuff that you wouldnt necessarily notice unless you knew a lot about the game or were looking for it.

    I'd much prefer to have a proper openside, and have the old Heaslip back. His form was less than you'd expect of someone with so much natural talent. He had a fine game against Wales, one of his best in a long time for Ireland. I didn't think he was quite as good against Italy. I dont see anyone challenging him for the 8 jersey. That said, I have been impressed with what I've seen of Coughlin for Munster, but I havent seen a whole lot of him really.


  • #80
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    nerd69 wrote: »
    i disagree the tempo raised when pom and d ryan came on but pom shouldn't be starting in front of what we have the italians have tired out in every 6 nations game this year the same happened on sat. murray had a poor match but reddan didn't outplay him to the level people are claiming yes reddans passing is a bit better but murray is a lot bigger than him and when it come do defending that counts for a lot.
    You really need to watch that game again and in particular pay a bit of attention to what Reddan does. I've watched him and timed him at 3 breakdowns in 10 seconds regularly. He trails the ball carrier whilst checking the positions of players and dives in and gets the ball away sometimes when there's only one forward in the ruck. The damage that does to defences is incalculable, as evidenced in the HEC match against Bath in Lansdowne; Luke Fitz getting the ball with only a lock or a prop to beat.

    Murray on the other hand was sometimes walking from ruck to ruck, other times just watching whilst the forwards recycled the ball themselves. It very seldom varied, the ball was slow, more forwards had to pile in to protect it and the defense was set and reading the newspaper by the time he got the ball away.

    He also took the ball on himself at least five times last weekend and was therefore unavailable for the next breakdown. We don't need a part time scrum half/ruck foundation.

    It's no surprise our forwards all looked better when they weren't scrapping to prevent turnovers at every breakdown.


  • #81
    ray jay
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭ray jay


    Using Murray's potential as justification to start him at 9 is stupid. By that logic we should be playing Zebo because he's fast and sure won't the experience help the rest of his game come on.

    Plenty of players have potential but never go on to realise it. The difference is that most of them have to prove themselves at lower levels of competition before earning the starting jersey for the national team.


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  • #82
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Higher wrote: »
    ONE bad game?

    What game has been good in for Ireland? In the world cup he was terrible against USA, poor when he came on against Australia and utterly dreadful against Wales

    the same could be said about sexton in that he has only a couple of good games in nearly 30 games, but everyone thinks he should be persisted with. murray also has a new backrow and sexton to build up a partnership with. think he has only played 2 or 3 games with sexton.

    I think schmidt is getting it right with the way he rotates boss and reddan and in general, the one that starts usually looks the poorest for leinster as well.


  • #83
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    jm08 wrote: »
    the same could be said about sexton in that he has only a couple of good games in nearly 30 games, but everyone thinks he should be persisted with. murray also has a new backrow and sexton to build up a partnership with. think he has only played 2 or 3 games with sexton.

    I think schmidt is getting it right with the way he rotates boss and reddan and in general, the one that starts usually looks the poorest for leinster as well.

    This isnt club level where rotation is necessary though. This is an international competition, and there are clearly better players who should be starting. Sexton has shown what he has to offer and is picked on that basis, Murray hasnt, its all ifs and buts and maybe in the future while players who outplay him are consigned to the bench and the A team.

    And Sexton wasnt catapulted to the 10 jersey ahead of clearly better players based on hunch that he might be good. He stepped up in finals of the Heinekup cup and earned his international place.


  • #84
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    jm08 wrote: »
    the same could be said about sexton in that he has only a couple of good games in nearly 30 games, but everyone thinks he should be persisted with. murray also has a new backrow and sexton to build up a partnership with. think he has only played 2 or 3 games with sexton.

    I think schmidt is getting it right with the way he rotates boss and reddan and in general, the one that starts usually looks the poorest for leinster as well.

    Except we don't have a better option than Sexton. It looks very likely we do have a better option than Murray.

    I was actually in favour of letting Murray and Sexton develop as a partnership but you just cannot ignore how much better Reddan was on Saturday. The difference was incredible.

    I would be 95% sure Murray will start again though. In fact I'd be 95% sure it will be the exact same team.


  • #85
    Luckycharm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭Luckycharm


    Murray has potential but let him reach that potential at munster until then he has not earned a starting spot - he is killing us at the moment, he is taking so long to get the ball out and it has to be on a platter for him. His box kicks are so telegraphed don't think we regained one.
    Reddan has flaws but is far better then Murray at the moment, also regarding starting for Leinster who starts all the Knockout must win games for Leinster?
    Damage limitation has not worked for Ireland much in the last 40 years in paris so if that is our gameplan god help us!!! Also Reddan defence is fine when has he ever missed a bad tackle for Ireland.

    Regarding Heaslip he was our best backrow on Sat - he wins alot of turnovers and carried well. If anyone needs a rest at the moment then it is prob SOB.


  • #86
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    MungBean wrote: »
    This isnt club level where rotation is necessary though. This is an international competition, and there are clearly better players who should be starting. Sexton has shown what he has to offer and is picked on that basis, Murray hasnt, its all ifs and buts and maybe in the future while players who outplay him are consigned to the bench and the A team.

    And Sexton wasnt catapulted to the 10 jersey ahead of clearly better players based on hunch that he might be good. He stepped up in finals of the Heinekup cup and earned his international place.

    are you serious:confused: rotation is necessary at club level and not at international level:rolleyes:


  • #87
    Flincher
    Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Flincher


    I get the feeling Murray is overthinking things at the moment. He was at his best last season and against Castres away, Scarlets at home and Northampton away when he just concentrated on feeding the backs and giving quick ball to the forward carriers. He mentioned in an interview that he's under a bit of pressure to take control of the pack. I wonder is that message getting lost and resulting in ponderous play.

    The encouraging thing for me is that the basics are there. Someone mentioned earlier that his passing is rubbish. Thats not true, he's a very decent passer in my view. For anyone who watches him warm up before, he often does a kicking drill where he kicks to a player who stands on the 10m line. That player rarely has to move.

    The skills are there, the head isn't yet.


  • #88
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    danthefan wrote: »
    Except we don't have a better option than Sexton. It looks very likely we do have a better option than Murray.

    I was actually in favour of letting Murray and Sexton develop as a partnership but you just cannot ignore how much better Reddan was on Saturday. The difference was incredible.

    I would be 95% sure Murray will start again though. In fact I'd be 95% sure it will be the exact same team.

    How do you know Murray won't be a better option. sexton didn't look like a better option in his first 6Ns, and is only now begining to look confident at internatinoal level. reddan and boss are no spring chickens now and murray looks to be the only player to show international promise at the moment.


  • #89
    Hyperbullet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭Hyperbullet


    Higher wrote: »
    ONE bad game?

    What game has been good in for Ireland? In the world cup he was terrible against USA, poor when he came on against Australia and utterly dreadful against Wales

    You're entitled to your opinion but I don't agree with you. He's got 8 caps and was thrown in at the deep end for the world cup, where he did well. This is his first 6N as a starting scrum half and he should be given time to get up to speed. I agree totally that Reddan made a significant impact when he came on, and if he can make that impact again against France then brilliant, but this sensationalist notion that he's "the new TOL" is just ridiculous and completely unfair to a guy of just 22.

    Patience is a virtue that Irish people simply don't have. But when it's given, like in Sexton's case, it pays dividends.


  • #90
    leonard7
    Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭leonard7


    this threads a bit harsh on o'leary


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  • #91
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,617 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I can't wait until Luke Mc Grath comes through. He'll have the Leinster and Ireland No.9 jersey for years to come.


This discussion has been closed.
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