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Month and Week Decided this is getting Real

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,920 ✭✭✭Daith


    rochey84 wrote: »
    Hey Guys,

    Thought you might be interested in the below article. We're looking at the first week in May, anyone else nervous that voter apathy could work against us despite the huge numbers in the latest IPSOS/MRIB poll?

    Yes, the polls are meaningless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Daith wrote: »
    Yes, the polls are meaningless.

    Absolutely and utterly useless.

    Complacency and a false belief in polls will lose this referendum.

    The thing is
    1 if people assume it will be a landslide yes then those in favour of a yes will be less motivated to go out and vote. We cannot let any yes voter be complacent and make assumptions.
    2 A large majority of voters in previous referenda decided how they would vote either in the week before or day before. The campaign is really early days so there could be something unexpected from the no side against us at the last minute.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,858 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    It's really annoying that they won't just hold the referendum tomorrow or next week, we have to wait another 6 months. Sigh, but suppose better is late than never.

    I do think the poll lead is vulnerable at best and the final outcome will be very tight. I hope those in favour of equal marriage for gay people will actually come out and vote!

    I also hope that no one uses the referendum as a way to damage the government.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It's really annoying that they won't just hold the referendum tomorrow or next week, we have to wait another 6 months. Sigh, but suppose better is late than never.

    I do think the poll lead is vulnerable at best and the final outcome will be very tight. I hope those in favour of equal marriage for gay people will actually come out and vote!

    I also hope that no one uses the referendum as a way to damage the government.

    It needs to be in 6 months.

    The family and children relationships needs to be law first.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    If the Children and Family Relationships Bill is enacted, then one of the big selling points of civil marriage (adoption/children's matters) is largely dealt with right? So even if the referendum result is a 'no' it mightn't be the end of the world..


    Regarding the polls figures.... I laugh when the Times reports something like 71% of people in favour of civil marriage. I don't know if the polls are done face-to-face or over the phone, but let's be honest -- it's kind of "in" right now to support gay rights so people will be more inclined to lie and say yes to any question on gay marriage etc. While if they were asked more anonymously they'd be more likely to say no.


    Tbh I think the longer this is dragged out the better. If there was a referendum today, I'd be surprised if it wasn't 50-50 and a close call either way. 71-29 or similar would shock me. Once people stop worrying about their finances, pensions, negative equity, unemployment etc, they'll be more likely to vote yes on gay marriage. Seeing as the referendum route seems to be inevitable, I'd prefer if they'd wait until next summer at the earliest. People would be in a better mood with a better economy, and all the students would be at home to vote.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    rochey84 wrote: »
    Hey Guys,

    Thought you might be interested in the below article. We're looking at the first week in May, anyone else nervous that voter apathy could work against us despite the huge numbers in the latest IPSOS/MRIB poll?

    http://www.thejournal.ie/same-sex-marriage-referendum-3-1837922-Dec2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

    Ok does gay marriage mean civil marriage not forcing the church to marry men in it? I will vote yes for the first but no if they are going to make the church do something don't want to. What do you get extra from it that's not in civil partnership?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Ok does gay marriage mean civil marriage not forcing the church to marry men in it? I will vote yes for the first but no if they are going to make the church do something don't want to. What do you get extra from it that's not in civil partnership?

    This is about equal civil marriage. It is nothing to do with the church and the church will not be forced to marry a gay couple.

    The list of differences are here


    http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    This is about equal civil marriage. It is nothing to do with the church and the church will not be forced to marry a gay couple.

    The list of differences are here


    http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

    Ok that's fine I see marriage as the church thing and thought the civil partnership ment you had all the same but just kept the church out, the only other reason I would vote no is adaption does this mean you have to considered for adoption now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Adoption will be bought in separately under the children/family relations bill so it doesnt matter whether you vote yes or no the government is going to bring adoption in before the referendum. So a yes or no vote wont affect adoption.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭lyinghere


    Can I suggest a productive excercise right here in the thread?

    I'm imagining conversations with family and friends over the next few months where they ask my opinions on marriage equality. I don't want to give them just a "because I might want to get married " response. I know they would vote yes anyhow but I think we need to aim to ensure that these conversations ensure friends and family are not just voting yes out of obligation and loyalty to you - they need to fully understand why this is important so that they are ready to effectively pass on this message in their conversations

    Suggestions?

    I plan to sit down and gather my thoughts by writing it all down soon but this could be good to get the ball rolling for us all!

    Why is Marriage Equality important to you? I know it sounds like such a duh question but I want my answer to be convincing !


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    Adoption will be bought in separately under the children/family relations bill so it doesnt matter whether you vote yes or no the government is going to bring adoption in before the referendum. So a yes or no vote wont affect adoption.

    Ok, I am leaning to a yes vote as it does not effect the church, will ask for reasons vote no on another board or site just encase there is something I am not thinking of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Ok that's fine I see marriage as the church thing and thought the civil partnership ment you had all the same but just kept the church out, the only other reason I would vote no is adaption does this mean you have to considered for adoption now?

    Marriage has nothing to do with the church. Many straight couples have their weddings in a registry office or other approved location. Even if you do marry in a church you still have to have the state legitimise your union. A priest can't do that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Adoption will be bought in separately under the children/family relations bill so it doesnt matter whether you vote yes or no the government is going to bring adoption in before the referendum. So a yes or no vote wont affect adoption.

    Is that expected to happen before May ? I can see a lot of anti ssm groups manipulating voters by bringing in the adoption issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Marriage has nothing to do with the church. Many straight couples have their weddings in a registry office or other approved location. Even if you do marry in a church you still have to have the state legitimise your union. A priest can't do that.

    I know I just don't want them to be forced to do something they don't want to do, like that cake shop up the north that did not want to make the cake, they should not be forced to do something they disagree with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Is that expected to happen before May ? I can see a lot of anti ssm groups manipulating voters by bringing in the adoption issue.

    Well I am on the fence and adoption is a big no for me but civil marriage is ok atm, but if the yes to marriage makes adoption easier it might make me vote no, so they are kinda linked and the questions should be brought up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Well I am on the fence and adoption is a big no for me but civil marriage is ok atm, but if the yes to marriage makes adoption easier it might make me vote no, so they are kinda linked and the questions should be brought up.

    This is a red herring. Gay people can already adopt. Marriage will just give their family more security. They will still be subject to the same checks as straight people. Very few adoptions happen in Ireland, most are inter family.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    eviltwin wrote: »
    This is a red herring. Gay people can already adopt. Marriage will just give their family more security. They will still be subject to the same checks as straight people. Very few adoptions happen in Ireland, most are inter family.

    Honestly I don't want to make it easier, I don't think gay or single straight or gay people should be allowed to adopt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭lyinghere


    eviltwin wrote: »
    This is a red herring. Gay people can already adopt. Marriage will just give their family more security. They will still be subject to the same checks as straight people. Very few adoptions happen in Ireland, most are inter family.

    Isn't it worth considering here though. Poster has suggested that adoption is a big no. I'm interested to establish is there any reasoning behind this ?

    I think this concern will come up over and over regardless and I'm taking note that of what evil twin is saying but I want to understand why someone says me adopting would be a big no to them .


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Honestly I don't want to make it easier, I don't think gay or single straight or gay people should be allowed to adopt.

    They already can.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    anonyanony wrote: »
    I know I just don't want them to be forced to do something they don't want to do, like that cake shop up the north that did not want to make the cake, they should not be forced to do something they disagree with.

    Its not about forcing the church to do anything

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    lyinghere wrote: »
    Isn't it worth considering here though. Poster has suggested that adoption is a big no. I'm interested to establish is there any reasoning behind this ?

    I think this concern will come up over and over regardless and I'm taking note that of what evil twin is saying but I want to understand why someone says me adopting would be a big no to them .

    Children need a mother/father

    Child will grow up gay

    Gay men will adopt to abuse a child

    It's just wrong

    Take your pick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Honestly I don't want to make it easier, I don't think gay or single straight or gay people should be allowed to adopt.

    Your decision on the referendum will not affect the adoption law!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    lyinghere wrote: »
    Isn't it worth considering here though. Poster has suggested that adoption is a big no. I'm interested to establish is there any reasoning behind this ?

    I think this concern will come up over and over regardless and I'm taking note that of what evil twin is saying but I want to understand why someone says me adopting would be a big no to them .

    You cannot provide a male and female upbringing for the kid, I don't think straight singles should be allowed to adopt either. I would go as far to say we should start the same system as england where they force take kids for mothers that cannot support them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    anonyanony wrote: »
    You cannot provide a male and female upbringing for the kid, I don't think straight singles should be allowed to adopt either. I would go as far to say we should start the same system as england where they force take kids for mothers that cannot support them.

    We tried the whole forced adoption before, look how that turned out.

    Gay people don't live in a bubble, they have siblings, friends etc....the children will have plenty of role models of the opposite sex. Many children of gay parents are in contact with both their mother and father.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    eviltwin wrote: »
    We tried the whole forced adoption before, look how that turned out.

    Gay people don't live in a bubble, they have siblings, friends etc....the children will have plenty of role models of the opposite sex. Many children of gay parents are in contact with both their mother and father.

    Still don't support it or anything that will lead to it being made easier. I don't care about people being gay if it doesn't effect others hence the marriage thing is ok if place like halls and cakes shop can say we don't want to supply your cake or after party. I am guessing that is ok down here as they can say no to travelers so will be ok to say no to gays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Still don't support it or anything that will lead to it being made easier. I don't care about people being gay if it doesn't effect others hence the marriage thing is ok if place like halls and cakes shop can say we don't want to supply your cake or after party. I am guessing that is ok down here as they can say no to travelers so will be ok to say no to gays.

    No. Equality legislation means you cannot refuse travellers or gay people access to goods or services.

    But this is irrelevant to equal civil marriage.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Still don't support it or anything that will lead to it being made easier. I don't care about people being gay if it doesn't effect others hence the marriage thing is ok if place like halls and cakes shop can say we don't want to supply your cake or after party. I am guessing that is ok down here as they can say no to travelers so will be ok to say no to gays.

    How exactly do you think it will be easier? The hoops will be the same. The big difference is the security it will offer ie if the legal parent dies the child won't be in a legal limbo. You're talking tiny numbers anyway, less than 20 children were adopted into non biological families last year. Most adoptions are family adoptions which is always in the best interest of the child.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    No. Equality legislation means you cannot refuse travellers or gay people access to goods or services.

    But this is irrelevant to equal civil marriage.

    Plenty of places won't do travelers marriages


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    anonyanony wrote: »
    Plenty of places won't do travelers marriages

    The state does not have a blanket ban on travellers marrying.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭anonyanony


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The state does not have a blanket ban on travellers marrying.

    I am talking about the after party, if a place has a religious or moral belief not to do a gay marriage party they as a business should be allowed to no, why are your rights more important to the businesses


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