Taoiseach’s visit to Pantibar

Nomis21 · 03-12-2014 5:04pm #1

Some see it as a publicity stunt.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/stunt-or-significant-gesture-taoiseach-s-visit-to-pantibar-1.2023872

I see it as a very courageous gesture.

Enda Kenny has gone up significantly for this in my opinion, regardless of anything else he may have done. He has struck a blow for equality, especially poignant from someone who declares himself a practicing catholic.

J_E · 03-12-2014 6:22pm

I have to say to me it feels like it's a preparation to catch the gay vote next year... Not feeling super confident it's without an ulterior motive given the last year that's been in it.

Nomis21 · 03-12-2014 6:34pm

Gay vote is 10%

He risked alienating much of the other 90%

Especially where he comes from in Co Mayo.

baby and crumble · 03-12-2014 6:35pm

In all fairness though, it was his parties LGBT groups Christmas party. It's not that unusual for a boss to show up at his staff Christmas party. I'm no fan of Enda Kenny- I actually quite dislike him and FG- but i don't think it's as bad as everyone is saying.

eviltwin · 03-12-2014 6:46pm

He just went into a bar, a gay bar but still just a bay. Its hardly anything to be excited about. He's not exactly a trail blazer for gay rights is our Enda coming for a Catholic conservative background.

Aard · 03-12-2014 6:50pm

Yay more normalisation in advance of the referendum. I'm hoping that people will just be gay love-bombed over the next few months to the extent that they won't bother going out to vote no.

Nomis21 · 03-12-2014 7:10pm

I think most people won't bother to vote as they either don't care because they are not gay or see it as a foregone conclusion to be passed, but of those that do vote it will be an overwhelming 'Yes'.

Aard · 03-12-2014 7:28pm

^ "Overwhelming"? Care to share some o' them laurels you're resting on?!

hotmail.com · 03-12-2014 7:38pm

There isn't any gay vote as such.

A lot of people, particularly older, still have notions about gay people and gay bars..from the funny, to the stereotypical to the offensive. So seeing the Taoiseach having a drink in a gay bar must strike a blow to those notions, helping to break down remaining barriers.

A few years ago, many straight people wouldn't contemplate going to a gay bar for fear of being called gay. This belief is increasingly becoming a thing of the past.

Daith · 03-12-2014 8:35pm

The election is in 2016. He needs to do his best for the referendum to get the gay vote.

His party had drinks in a pub and he joined.

Ronan|Raven · 03-12-2014 8:45pm

Not a regular poster in here but saw this on the front page.

I know a lot of people are cynical about him being there and elections and what not but as already mentioned there was an xmas gathering of his party and he went along.

What makes me feel very happy is the fact that (and maybe I am not hanging in the correct circles!) the Taoiseach of this country was in a gay bar and there are not riots on the streets from the usual few. Maybe things are changing in this country for the better and it will lead onto a yes vote in the upcoming referendum and allow for LGBT couple to be afforded the same rights those of us on "the other side" of the equation have been and continue to enjoy.

Ten of Swords · 03-12-2014 9:50pm

J_E wrote: »

I have to say to me it feels like it's a preparation to catch the gay vote next year... Not feeling super confident it's without an ulterior motive given the last year that's been in it.

As much as I want to believe this is a positive step without ulterior motives I simply do not, I think Enda has always been reactionary rather than proactive and I believe this is an example of hopping on a popular bandwagon because his party has taken a beating lately.

He refused to back marriage equality in 2012, the below quote is his response to Michael Martin in the Dail. I guess he ticked that box in Panti yesterday.

Enda Kenny (2012) - You’re not going to pressurise both me as a citizen or as a leader of government into a box-ticking exercise here to say: ‘line them up now’ because I speak from this seat as government

Link

This article in the Examiner from a year ago sums up my thoughts on it pretty well and I'm struggling to see what has changed since then.

Link

Last night really does seem like a stunt from someone trying to hop on an issue that the public is (on the face of it) largely behind so it costs nothing to throw his support this direction and get a few brownie points for it.

If his presence last night does change some opinions and will encourage some votes that's a good thing but lets call a spade a spade.

Annasopra · 03-12-2014 10:11pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

Gay vote is 10%

He risked alienating much of the other 90%

Especially where he comes from in Co Mayo.

Alienating voters by going to a bar? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Annasopra · 03-12-2014 10:14pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

I think most people won't bother to vote as they either don't care because they are not gay or see it as a foregone conclusion to be passed, but of those that do vote it will be an overwhelming 'Yes'.

Ah here! There is absolutely no room for complacency.

None. Nada. Nil. Zero.

There is no foregone conclusion.

No referendum in this country can ever be called as a foregone conclusion between 4 and 6 months beforehand!

The Seanad referendum was a way different story in the polls
The Childtens rights referendum was a way different story in the polls.

If people assume it will be a foregone conclusion and do not do all they can to support a yes vote then it will be lost.

hfallada · 03-12-2014 10:21pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Alienating voters by going to a bar? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A lot of OAPs are pioneers in this country. My Grandparents were horrific we had a glass of wine at Christmas dinner one year. So the fact that the head of the Government is a "gay bar" is going to be a shock for a lot of people.

Regardless of whether it was a publicity stunt or not. It normalise gay people, something which most people in rural Ireland have never had to encounter. If you are living an isolated place in the west of Ireland. Chances are the only thing you are hearing about the referendum is "attack on traditional values" and "attack on marriage" from the Bishops of the catholic church. Individuals we all know are far from the leaders in morality. The Taoiseach is highly respected by a lot of old people and may switch some no voters to yes voters.

Politicians change their values constantly. Im sure there is plenty of politicians in the US who were against interracial marriage, but now have friends of other races. We live in a rapidly changing society and there is nothing wrong with changing your views over time.

Annasopra · 03-12-2014 10:27pm

I really think there is so much nonsense being spouted about this.

I'd say the vast majority of fg voters won't stop voting for FG because Enda went to a bar owned by another Mayoman.

As for the bit about this being a stunt. Give me a break. A group in his party were celebrating the end of a year and he joined them for the celebrations.

Daith · 04-12-2014 9:20am

Ten of Swords wrote: »

He refused to back marriage equality in 2012, the below quote is his response to Michael Martin in the Dail. I guess he ticked that box in Panti yesterday..

I think he ticked it in 2013 when he said

He made his position public last night by telling business people at a function in Dublin that he was going to hold a referendum on the "equality issue of gay marriage" in 18 months.

"I support that very strongly and we'll campaign for that when it comes," he said.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/kenny-defies-church-in-gay-marriage-vote-29730373.html

I very much agree that it was him joining his party on a night out. Yes there was opportunities for photos but there always is.

SliabhnamBan · 04-12-2014 9:51am

When someone, especially the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of a country, drags his feet on an issue and refuses time after time to state whether he will campaign for or against an issue (i.e. Marriage Equality) then I think we have to be cynical about his visit to a gay bar.
Yes, Enda Kenny has said he will campaign for the passage of the Marriage Equality bill which will allow gay people the same civil marriage rights as straight people, but, it took him forever to decide to do so. I remember, time after time, Taoiseach Enda Kenny being asked whether he would support Marriage Equality or not and I remember, time after time, that he refused to answer the question. That to me is not the reaction of someone who believes in equality. It is the reaction of someone who has no passion for equality and who doesn't really "get" the importance and relevance of it all. The fact that he took so long to make up his mind on the issue makes me suspicious that he was waiting to see what way the wind was blowing. And if the direction of the wind is so important to him then he is not really committed to the issue. Enda Kenny is a sham leader. He panders to the crowd and regularly displays a sneering arrogance in the Dail which makes me cringe. He is a divisive force in this country and I do not support him but I do think his visit to Panti Bar was welcome.
The fact that our Taoiseach's visit to a gay bar merits an article in the national newspapers and prompts such a discussion online is clear evidence of how far we have to go to be really treated as equals. I welcome the Taoiseach's visit to Panti Bar but let's be honest he is no knight in shining armour crusading for gay rights. He's a cynical politician trawling for votes at a time when many of his suporters are deserting him.

Daith · 04-12-2014 10:07am

SliabhnamBan wrote: »

When someone, especially the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of a country, drags his feet on an issue and refuses time after time to state whether he will campaign for or against an issue (i.e. Marriage Equality) then I think we have to be cynical about his visit to a gay bar.

Yes, Enda Kenny has said he will campaign for the passage of the Marriage Equality bill

So even after he said he will campaign for it, it doesn't mean anything?

SliabhnamBan wrote: »

I welcome the Taoiseach's visit to Panti Bar but let's be honest he is no knight in shining armour crusading for gay rights. He's a cynical politician trawling for votes at a time when many of his suporters are deserting him.

I also think it's cynical to suggest he's trawling for votes instead of joining his party colleagues on their Christmas night out.

baby and crumble · 04-12-2014 10:43am

Why do people get so wound up at the idea of a politician either changing his mind, or trying to secure votes for his party?

Can anyone here honestly say, hand on heart, they have never changed their mind about a political or moral question? I know a couple of years ago I had very different opinions about trans people, about travellers, about what was right and wrong. 10 years ago I scoffed at the idea of a mtf trans person identifying as a lesbian. Now I know how stupid I was. I changed my mind. Why is it so odd or questionable that Enda Kenny has done the same about marriage equality?

And even if he hasn't, even if it is for votes and to get the legislation passed- who cares? He's a politician. Elections are like one big job interview. Are you telling me you've never fudged an interview question, or said you had nonissue with x, in order to get the job? He's also the leader of a whole party, of course he wants legislation passed and votes to come in. Nobody wild bat an eyelid at a director of a company trying to get more customers.

Btw as I said before I'm not defending Enda Kenny the man, or FG. I intensely dislike them.

floggg · 04-12-2014 11:41am

J_E wrote: »

I have to say to me it feels like it's a preparation to catch the gay vote next year... Not feeling super confident it's without an ulterior motive given the last year that's been in it.

Who cares?

It's great progress that out votes are being cynically targeted. 20 years ago we would be targeted for something else.

And its not like we aren't going to cynically use politicians come the referendum next year. Given that we are facing a vote on the legitimacy of our relationships, I am delighted that politicians are trying to align themselves with our cause, regardless of the reasons for it.

Politicans will also go where the votes are, and if they think there are more votes on being pro-LGBT rights than anti, than I for one am very happy because life in Ireland could be a lot worse for us if it was the other way around.

Annasopra · 04-12-2014 6:21pm

SliabhnamBan wrote: »

When someone, especially the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of a country, drags his feet on an issue and refuses time after time to state whether he will campaign for or against an issue (i.e. Marriage Equality) then I think we have to be cynical about his visit to a gay bar.
Yes, Enda Kenny has said he will campaign for the passage of the Marriage Equality bill which will allow gay people the same civil marriage rights as straight people, but, it took him forever to decide to do so. I remember, time after time, Taoiseach Enda Kenny being asked whether he would support Marriage Equality or not and I remember, time after time, that he refused to answer the question. That to me is not the reaction of someone who believes in equality. It is the reaction of someone who has no passion for equality and who doesn't really "get" the importance and relevance of it all. The fact that he took so long to make up his mind on the issue makes me suspicious that he was waiting to see what way the wind was blowing. And if the direction of the wind is so important to him then he is not really committed to the issue. Enda Kenny is a sham leader. He panders to the crowd and regularly displays a sneering arrogance in the Dail which makes me cringe. He is a divisive force in this country and I do not support him but I do think his visit to Panti Bar was welcome.
The fact that our Taoiseach's visit to a gay bar merits an article in the national newspapers and prompts such a discussion online is clear evidence of how far we have to go to be really treated as equals. I welcome the Taoiseach's visit to Panti Bar but let's be honest he is no knight in shining armour crusading for gay rights. He's a cynical politician trawling for votes at a time when many of his suporters are deserting him.

This is actually quite ridiculous. There was never any suggestion Enda Kenny was going to actively campaign against marriage equality.

I think theres a deep cynicism in giving out that Enda didnt actively support marriage equality and giving out now that he does.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with politicians and parties actively asking lgbt people to vote for them based on a platform of improving lgbt rights. Instead of sitting at a keyboard and unconstuctively moaning about how cynical it is people could actively use it to improve that platform.

We are at an amazing juncture in history - parties are actively looking for support based on their lgbt rights platform.
Think about this.
Think how lucky we are that this is happening.
Think how politicians are hammering on our doors rather than us hammering at their doors and getting no answers.
Think how this could be used to our advantage.

hotmail.com · 04-12-2014 8:00pm

SliabhnamBan wrote: »

When someone, especially the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of a country, drags his feet on an issue and refuses time after time to state whether he will campaign for or against an issue (i.e. Marriage Equality) then I think we have to be cynical about his visit to a gay bar.
Yes, Enda Kenny has said he will campaign for the passage of the Marriage Equality bill which will allow gay people the same civil marriage rights as straight people, but, it took him forever to decide to do so. I remember, time after time, Taoiseach Enda Kenny being asked whether he would support Marriage Equality or not and I remember, time after time, that he refused to answer the question. That to me is not the reaction of someone who believes in equality. It is the reaction of someone who has no passion for equality and who doesn't really "get" the importance and relevance of it all. The fact that he took so long to make up his mind on the issue makes me suspicious that he was waiting to see what way the wind was blowing. And if the direction of the wind is so important to him then he is not really committed to the issue. Enda Kenny is a sham leader. He panders to the crowd and regularly displays a sneering arrogance in the Dail which makes me cringe. He is a divisive force in this country and I do not support him but I do think his visit to Panti Bar was welcome.
The fact that our Taoiseach's visit to a gay bar merits an article in the national newspapers and prompts such a discussion online is clear evidence of how far we have to go to be really treated as equals. I welcome the Taoiseach's visit to Panti Bar but let's be honest he is no knight in shining armour crusading for gay rights. He's a cynical politician trawling for votes at a time when many of his suporters are deserting him.

If someone changes their mind on same-sex marriage, that should be welcomed and left at that IMO.

I'm sure they have reached the conclusion that their previously held views about gay people are now wrong and they are possibly embarrassed about what they used to think. It's a feature of many middle aged and older people in Ireland and I don't think it's constructive or wise to condemn that generation who now support same-sex marriage, but once held homophobic views.

J_E · 06-12-2014 9:22am

hotmail.com wrote: »

If someone changes their mind on same-sex marriage, that should be welcomed and left at that IMO.

I'm sure they have reached the conclusion that their previously held views about gay people are now wrong and they are possibly embarrassed about what they used to think. It's a feature of many middle aged and older people in Ireland and I don't think it's constructive or wise to condemn that generation who now support same-sex marriage, but once held homophobic views.

But my issue isn't that Enda may have changed his mind (which is absolutely not a problem) but I don't think he has. I think there's a falseness to it and that bothers me. Enda is a reactionary, not a revolutionary. The idea of being used as a group makes me uncomfortable, whether or not it is a significant appearance. Enda has been famously quiet/reserved about gay marriage and homosexuality in general, tripping over himself to avoid it, and now suddenly he's in Pantibar for the LGBT party? I'm not buying that his mindset has genuinely changed here.

lyinghere · 06-12-2014 1:11pm

J_E wrote: »

But my issue isn't that Enda may have changed his mind (which is absolutely not a problem) but I don't think he has. I think there's a falseness to it and that bothers me. Enda is a reactionary, not a revolutionary. The idea of being used as a group makes me uncomfortable, whether or not it is a significant appearance. Enda has been famously quiet/reserved about gay marriage and homosexuality in general, tripping over himself to avoid it, and now suddenly he's in Pantibar for the LGBT party? I'm not buying that his mindset has genuinely changed here.

"Pick your battles" and all that. He wouldn't have went if he wasn't lending his support , he has made his mind up and it's beneficial for us so I think you should focus your energy elsewhere really !

J_E · 06-12-2014 1:25pm

lyinghere wrote: »

"Pick your battles" and all that. He wouldn't have went if he wasn't lending his support , he has made his mind up and it's beneficial for us so I think you should focus your energy elsewhere really !

That's not true at all - it's a photo op. I don't have to 'just accept' it if it happens to have an offsetting effect, I'm bothered at how people are lapping it up without being critical to a degree. It's the exact same as what he's been doing re: talking to homeless recently. I nearly guarantee you were he not in trouble politically, he wouldn't have dared touch the place with a bargepole. Does that kind of attitude not bother anyone?

floggg wrote: »

And its not like we aren't going to cynically use politicians come the referendum next year. Given that we are facing a vote on the legitimacy of our relationships, I am delighted that politicians are trying to align themselves with our cause, regardless of the reasons for it.

I think it's a little blasé to use 'we' and who 'we are using' in such a way, that's another debate though best left in person.

I'll reserve my final judgement to when I actually see actions, not token appearances.

eviltwin · 06-12-2014 1:29pm

J_E wrote: »

That's not true at all - it's a photo op. I don't have to 'just accept' it if it happens to have an offsetting effect, I'm bothered at how people are lapping it up without being critical to a degree. It's the exact same as what he's been doing re: talking to homeless recently. I nearly guarantee you were he not in trouble politically, he wouldn't have dared touch the place with a bargepole. Does that kind of attitude not bother anyone?

It bothers me but what bothers me more is the 'isn't he great' fawning over the man. As I said in my earlier post it's just a bar. It's not really that big a deal. So far we still have no date for the ssm referendum, why is he dragging his heels if he cares so much. He had said in the past that he is a committed Catholic so I would like him to be honest about his intentions. Until then I can't see this as anything to be excited about.

feardeas · 06-12-2014 9:35pm

The Taoiseach went to a gay bar. I'm not a supporter of his but let's be fair, this would not have happened a decade ago nor maybe even five years ago. As for courting a vote. Doubt it is a homogenous vote no more than any other group. For me I'd consider it symbolic. Also don't forget the man is of and from middle Ireland. It is there that the referendum will be won or lost. If hearing that gets people to think about their view fair enough.

When a man in his 60s, from the west of Ireland, can walk into a gay bar to have a drink with colleagues or friends who happen to be gay well then that is something to be welcomed. In time it may not be news worthy but surely it is at the moment.

Mind you if he had an idea what the polls later in the week were going to say I'd imagine he'd have stayed for more than one drink.

ninty9er · 06-12-2014 10:10pm

Looking at the political landscape I'm not sure Enda is completely comfortable.

Joan Burton will lead the cabinet, Simon Coveney has said he wants to lead the FG campaign and I'm sure Jerry Buttimer will be vocal.

From my own political point of view I know Micheal Martin is 100% committed and passionate about getting this referendum passed. He has been vocal on a number of occasions since becoming leader and I recently saw him stand up from the floor of a panel discussion he was observing to interject on the importance of marriage equality and equality in general for our society.

Niall Collins, Thomas Byrne, Dara Calleary; these are not people in an urban easy environment for this referendum, but are firm on this, much like all parties, there are those who are ultra conservative, but they will not feed the core campaign.

In fairness to Enda, it's clear he's personally uncomfortable, but he did say he will be supporting the referendum.

IMO SF is the party most likely to lose support this, not based on any polls or data, just a gut feeling.

McKrab · 07-12-2014 10:46am

Even if he isn't personally comfortable with the idea, shouldn't we still welcome the fact that he's distancing his personal views from his public views?

It's similar to when he said that he was a Catholic and a Taoiseach, but not a Catholic Taoiseach. That he was a Taoiseach for all of the people.

To be honest, I think it's a good thing when a politician can recognise that their own personal views don't coincide with the majority of the electorate.

Daith · 07-12-2014 10:53am

ninty9er wrote: »

IMO SF is the party most likely to lose support this, not based on any polls or data, just a gut feeling.

I'm not convinced of that. I think we need SF being on board to actually win this thing.

What will lose this are politicians who won't campaign for it, esp those in middle Ireland. With the possible exception of Labour, I don't think there's any party with all members being 100% in favour of marriage equality.

The other thing of course is that it needs straight politicians saying vote yes. It can't be the same people we've heard from all the time.

Taoiseach’s visit to Pantibar

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