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BBJ v Other Martial arts

  • 03-10-2011 11:12pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    The only martial arts I have seen compete with BBJ and give it trouble are Greco-Roman wrestling, especially the submission version (I prefer it to BBJ, although BBJ has "borrowed" some of its chokes, arm bars and tri angles), judo, although only high dan grades seem to be able to hold their own against BBJ and Sambo, something I hope to do more of in the future, it has alot of leg locks etc.

    Things like Karate, Kung fu etc are left totally exposed by BBJ.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXlg7DksvY


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 381 ✭✭manga_10


    Personally from my own experience I feel that Wrestling helps greatly against BJJ as far as controlling the hips and the various pressures. But in some ways bjj and wrestling can be seen as deriving methods from one another.
    Barnett is a great example of this with his background in catch wrestling but being of a very high Grappling IQ to give most blackbelts problems


  • Registered Users Posts: 963 ✭✭✭Richy06


    The only martial arts I have seen compete with BBJ and give it trouble are Greco-Roman wrestling, especially the submission version (I prefer it to BBJ, although BBJ has "borrowed" some of its chokes, arm bars and tri angles), judo, although only high dan grades seem to be able to hold their own against BBJ and Sambo, something I hope to do more of in the future, it has alot of leg locks etc.

    Things like Karate, Kung fu etc are left totally exposed by BBJ.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXlg7DksvY

    what is this mythical BBJ that you speak of?!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Richy06 wrote: »
    what is this mythical BBJ that you speak of?!


    BJJ, typo :o


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    manga_10 wrote: »
    Personally from my own experience I feel that Wrestling helps greatly against BJJ as far as controlling the hips and the various pressures. But in some ways bjj and wrestling can be seen as deriving methods from one another.
    Barnett is a great example of this with his background in catch wrestling but being of a very high Grappling IQ to give most blackbelts problems



    My friend is British welter weight cage rage champion, has won 16/18 fights, European submission wresling welterweight champ, has just got a UFC contract to fight in the US.

    Submission wrestling is alot faster to learn then BBJ.

    When Royce Gracie fought Ken Shamrock it was a draw after 35 mins, first fight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭bjj-fighter


    My friend is British welter weight cage rage champion, has won 16/18 fights, European submission wresling welterweight champ, has just got a UFC contract to fight in the US.

    Submission wrestling is alot faster to learn then BBJ.

    When Royce Gracie fought Ken Shamrock it was a draw after 35 mins.

    Name?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Name?

    Ever heard of please ?


    John maguire

    Hes awsome to train with gypsy jiu jitsu is another name for submission wrestling.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUfBijskQAA


    John Maguire submits BJJ black belt.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPZzqyibON0


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,920 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    My friend is British welter weight cage rage champion, has won 16/18 fights, European submission wresling welterweight champ, has just got a UFC contract to fight in the US.
    The British WW Cage rage champ is Paul Daley, he hasn't just got a contract with UFC, and he never will.

    Che Millis is the World WW champ, he filled it after Daley Vacated the title. He's 13/18 though. He's fighting at 138, so guess that's who you refer to.
    When Royce Gracie fought Ken Shamrock it was a draw after 35 mins, first fight.

    nope. their first fight was over in less than a minute.
    the rematch was stopped after 35minutes and declared a draw. That doesn't mean it was an even fight. In those days, there were no rounds or judges - so they didn't know what to do.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Mellor wrote: »
    The British WW Cage rage champ is Paul Daley, he hasn't just got a contract with UFC, and he never will.

    Che Millis is the World WW champ, he filled it after Daley Vacated the title. He's 13/18 though. He's fighting at 138, so guess that's who you refer to.



    nope. their first fight was over in less than a minute.
    the rematch was stopped after 35minutes and declared a draw. That doesn't mean it was an even fight. In those days, there were no rounds or judges - so they didn't know what to do.


    Wrong.

    John Maguire, STILL Cage Rage UK Welterweight Champion!

    http://www.wwbrd.com/john-maguire-still-cage-rage-uk-welterweight-champion!


    After attending the most entertaining UK MMA event of 2011 in which John Maguire solidified himself as the Cage Rage UK Welterweight champion after a hard fought battle with Peter Irving. We caught up with John “The One” Maguire as he
    turns up the heat in the Welterweight division going, 16-3-0.


    http://www.fullmount.co.uk/index.php/mma-news/1-latest-news/1451-ucmma-23-welterweight-champ-john-maguire-interview


    Harry Shoebridge caught up with Welterweight Champion, John Maguire who defends his silver wear for the 3rd time against at Cage Rage UK, Challenged by Peter Irving this September 17th, Live from London’s, Troxy Arena. Maguire is has been making people stand up and take notice of him with his recent performances that have seen him become UCMMA champion and defend the title twice in impressive fashion. The fact his wins have been against the usual top quality Cage Rage fighters and that his wins have been so impressive has set up this fight as an incredibly intriguing fight that almost guarantees action whilst having ramifications for the Welterweight division beyond even the UK shores.


    http://www.fullmount.co.uk/index.php/mma-news/1-latest-news/1566-why-cage-rage-uk-champion-john-maguire-should-be-in-the-ufc

    Is John Maguire, the best Welterweight in the UK? In this writers opinion, yes, and after Saturday nights successful title defence at Cage Rage UK 23 it seems that even Cage Rage promoter Dave O'Donnell thinks it's high time Maguire got his chance with the UFC. After John beat Peter Irving by unanimous decision to defend his Cage Rage welterweight title for the third time it does seem that John is running out of opponents at this level that can offer him the challenge he needs.


    http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/New-UFC-signing-John-Maguire-quotIts-about-timequot-35870



    Friday, September 23, 2011

    35870
    (PRESS RELEASE) -- Multiple domestic welterweight champion John "The One" Maguire (16-3 MMA) has become the latest acquisition by the UFC.

    Cage Rage UK and OMMAC welterweight champion John Maguire has signed a four fight contract with the world's largest organization.

    Maguire was in competition this past weekend where he successfully defended his Cage Rage UK title against BJJ black belt Peter Irving (14-8-1 MMA) with an impressive victory via unanimous decision.




    I look fwd to him submitting George st Pierre.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,920 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I was talking about Cage Rage, as in the promotion that went bankrupt, all their titles were frozen. Isn't the current promotion and titles called UCMMA or something? I know they still use the Cage rage name in promos. But I thought it wasn't allowed to use the name officially because of the bankrupcy.

    After Maguires last fight they were talking about signing for the UFC, has he done this yet? Does that mean that he has to vacate his title?


    Edit: From your links above, I see they are using "Cage Rage UK". So are they using UCMMA at all?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭ Melina Nutty Ice


    The only martial arts I have seen compete with BBJ ....................blah

    I'm reluctant to get involved in this stuff, 'tis like travelling back ten yrs but here goes..

    Whats your background in martial arts?.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    I'm reluctant to get involved in this stuff, 'tis like travelling back ten yrs but here goes..

    Whats your background in martial arts?.


    Started off boxing then got into Shotokan which I did for a number of years, but found it too rigid, then bought into the exotic eastern martial arts bs and got into wing chung, but found it too complex, why do 5 moves when only one is needed ? But stuck with it cause I had bought into the bs.

    Then got into judo for a few years, then BJJ, once again which in parts I found over complex and its most effective parts nicked from greco Roman/submission wrestling.

    These days Im into gypsy ju jitsu/ submission wrestling, both are very simple and highly effective, I train with the GB Olympic wrestling squad members.

    Its a pity for so many yrs martial arts like submission wrestling were neglected for eastern martial arts bs, no pyjamas or attitude is needed, learning martial arts should be fairly informal and fun.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdDd0HzcvZM


  • Registered Users Posts: 525 ✭✭✭da-bres


    That lad Marcelo Garcia is handy at the BBJ



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    OP, I'm not entirely sure you know exactly what Greco-Roman wrestling is.

    Perhaps you should ask for some clarification next time you see your buddies from the GB team.


  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    My style of kung fu is better than your style of kung fu.

    You like BJJ, you should do BJJ then.
    There's no ultimate art. It doesn't have to be the ultimate art to make it worthwhile for you.

    Just keep training.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭pablohoney87


    BJJ to complex?????
    Where were you learning it? The biggest key to bjj is simplicity


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭ Melina Nutty Ice


    My style of kung fu is better than your style of kung fu.

    You like BJJ, you should do BJJ then.
    There's no ultimate art. It doesn't have to be the ultimate art to make it worthwhile for you.

    Just keep training.

    +1.

    This is like the discussions we had years ago in the old IRMAC martial arts forum, it was retarded then (IMO) and its still retarded now.

    OP for the last few months I trained exclusively BJJ/sub wrestling and some MMA. My fitness/conditioning was brilliant, I dropped 9kgs and my sharpness & skills in those styles was improving all the time and I was on top of the world.

    Went to a judo grading this weekend, in judo you fight for your grades - its exactly like a competition.. Anyway I went expecting to bag a few win's and an easy enough day.

    I got SPANKED in every fight, lost six fights in a row and was knocked out with an Osoto Gari in the last fight by a lad half my weight (Luke, Keith Rogers buried me!!).

    Does that result mean that judo now beats MMA/BJJ/sub wrestling?.. Not at all, unless its on a judo mat under judo rules.

    If I went to a BJJ comp after the same training I've no doubt I'd have done very well, but if I went after training only Judo I'd get spanked.

    Just enjoy martial arts, and stop comparing one with the other - its a bit silly, you'll be searching forever in that case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭slammer187


    I just watched John Maguire's fight, wow is all I can say...he is absolutely sick!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭paulmclaughlin


    slammer187 wrote: »
    I just watched John Maguire's fight, wow is all I can say...he is absolutely sick!

    Where were you one month ago?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    The only martial arts I have seen compete with BBJ and give it trouble are Greco-Roman wrestling, especially the submission version (I prefer it to BBJ, although BBJ has "borrowed" some of its chokes, arm bars and tri angles), judo, although only high dan grades seem to be able to hold their own against BBJ and Sambo, something I hope to do more of in the future, it has alot of leg locks etc.

    Things like Karate, Kung fu etc are left totally exposed by BBJ.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXlg7DksvY

    I cant believe they got their asses kicked so comprehensively. It kind of backs up what I always thought.. that people get brainwashed into their particular style and are totally exposed as a result. Whats' the typical ju jitsu defense to a take down attempt ? The Karate guy seemed kind of slow and was moving back and forth in a straight line. He did look kind of slow even at that. I'd be tempted to do a bit more side stepping (just a millimetre) while looking for an opportunity to punish my opponent if someone rushed me in such a way. However in a busy crowded drunken club atmosphere finding space to move around wouldnt' be easy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Michael O Leary


    got into wing chung, but found it too complex, why do 5 moves when only one is needed ?

    Hi,

    Just out of interest, where did you do wing chung? One of the main things about Leung Ting wing chun (Wing Tsun) is that often it is a lot more direct than generic wing chun(g).

    For example some wing chun people will apply a Bong Sau or a Tan Sau, etc against a punch and then follow up with a punch, where in Wing Tsun we counter a punch with a punch and the Bong/Tan Sau, etc is secondary if it is used at all. So the movements/positions can be the same but the strategy is different.

    Regards,

    Michael


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    BJJ to complex?????
    Where were you learning it? The biggest key to bjj is simplicity


    BJJ is a superb martial art, BUT, it takes on average 10 yrs to be come a black belt, there are only 50 odd black belts, in the whole of the UK and Ireland, most are from overseas.

    It has over 2,000 moves which are nicked from submission wrestling others from sambo, judo, Jap ju-jitsu, vale tudo.

    As an example there are more then 40 ways of doing an arm bar from the full guard.


    Im not saying people should not study BJJ, but mix it up with sub wrestling/gipsy ju jitsu as well, it will give you an individual style which most will find a real hand full. Under pressure you want it to be as simple but effective.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Hi,

    Just out of interest, where did you do wing chung? One of the main things about Leung Ting wing chun (Wing Tsun) is that often it is a lot more direct than generic wing chun(g).

    For example some wing chun people will apply a Bong Sau or a Tan Sau, etc against a punch and then follow up with a punch, where in Wing Tsun we counter a punch with a punch and the Bong/Tan Sau, etc is secondary if it is used at all. So the movements/positions can be the same but the strategy is different.

    Regards,

    Michael


    I studied Wing Chun locally with a locally with a guy who had 30 years experience.

    Because its not full contact, you cant tell how effective the defence technique is in real life.

    Its a bit like the way traditional martial arts schools teach knife self defence, what knife attacker in real life leaves their arm in mid air ?

    Wing Chun, is great for teaching, focus, discipline and making one feel connected to something powerful, even as a self defence system against the average aggressive guy, but against a grappler, it will get destroyed.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    psychward wrote: »
    I cant believe they got their asses kicked so comprehensively. It kind of backs up what I always thought.. that people get brainwashed into their particular style and are totally exposed as a result. Whats' the typical ju jitsu defense to a take down attempt ? The Karate guy seemed kind of slow and was moving back and forth in a straight line. He did look kind of slow even at that. I'd be tempted to do a bit more side stepping (just a millimetre) while looking for an opportunity to punish my opponent if someone rushed me in such a way. However in a busy crowded drunken club atmosphere finding space to move around wouldnt' be easy.


    There are various defences against being taken down in BJJ and sub wrestling depends on the attack, from the front the old school wrestling simple two legged take down is very effective from a sub wresting pov.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1OvDhD5E8I&feature=related


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    slammer187 wrote: »
    I just watched John Maguire's fight, wow is all I can say...he is absolutely sick!


    Submission wrestling is where its at for its simplicity, he totally dominated that fight.

    Heres the full fight :)


    http://www.mmalinker.com/external/frames/49701/Justin_Edwards_vs_John_Maguire_UFC_138_fight_video


  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭EnjoyChoke



    As an example there are more then 40 ways of doing an arm bar from the full guard.

    Say what?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    EnjoyChoke wrote: »
    Say what?


    grip tease arm bar, octopus guard to arm bar, elbow pressure arm bar, posture leg over arm bar, arm bar off americana, neck crank counter to arm bar, pendulum sweep arm bar, arm pendulum to standard arm bar, arm bar sweep to pendulum sweep to arm bar, follow through arm bar, biceps slicer arm bar, various standing arm bars, decoy sweep to arm bar, ladder up arm bar, fake sweep to arm bar, posture break arm bar, fake sit up to underhook arm bar various types, whizzer grip to knee pressure arm bar,..............

    Shall I go on ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OLDMAN1


    I studied Wing Chun locally with a locally with a guy who had 30 years experience.

    Because its not full contact, you cant tell how effective the defence technique is in real life.

    YES IT IS


  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭EnjoyChoke


    grip tease arm bar, octopus guard to arm bar, elbow pressure arm bar, posture leg over arm bar, arm bar off americana, neck crank counter to arm bar, pendulum sweep arm bar, arm pendulum to standard arm bar, arm bar sweep to pendulum sweep to arm bar, follow through arm bar, biceps slicer arm bar, various standing arm bars, decoy sweep to arm bar, ladder up arm bar, fake sweep to arm bar, posture break arm bar, fake sit up to underhook arm bar various types, whizzer grip to knee pressure arm bar,..............

    Shall I go on ?

    Is the armbar not executed in almost exactly the same way, off the setups you've just listed?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    OLDMAN1 wrote: »
    YES IT IS


    Lol, students practice by throwing fake punches, usually leaving their arm in the air, if thats full contact Im a China man.

    If it was full contact its weakness against grapplers would have been discovered years ago.

    Like Karate it was promoted by Hollywood cause it looks great on film.

    I bought into the bs I read in martial arts mags as a kid, picture scenarios of fight seqences where exotic MA always won, but was never anything like a street fight.

    Secret moves, ninjas and other bs, taught by "professors" who had never had a real fight in their lives.

    The reason we produce so few decent MMA fighters is cause we were sold this BS for years.

    Effective and genuine martial arts like submission wrestling were not glam enough, thus they were never promoted, it will take years to catch up.

    At least many have seen through the BS.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    EnjoyChoke wrote: »
    Is the armbar not executed in almost exactly the same way, off the setups you've just listed?


    No, there are even various ways of doing a standard arm bar from a closed guard, alot of differences are pretty subtle.

    People are always develping their own take on standard technquies, which is how it should be.


    All Im is saying is people should study a variety of grappling styles, then form an effective style that works for them, rather then just trying to be text book.


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