New Household Tax - Boycott

origirover · 05-11-2011 10:26pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

bmaxi wrote: »

You don't pay car tax for owning a car, you pay it for using it on the road. If you don't want to watch TV then don't buy one and you won't have to pay a licence but who can do without a home?
I can't believe you still don't get this, I have bought and paid for my house so therefore it is mine. The Government are saying that if I don't pay this tax, for whatever reason, not just if I choose not to, they can take my house. You still seem to be hung up on the €100 thing, Phil Hogan is on record as saying he can't guarantee it will still be €100 next year and experts expect it to double on an annual basis for the next 4 years at least, that will make it €1600 in the life of this Government.
I don't know where you got the impression the unemployed are to be spared payment of the tax, I hadn't heard that, AFAIK if you have bought your house you are liable for the tax, unemployed or not.
It has also been said that it is a temporary tax, so was income tax.

The state comes first, you + me second. Why? Because without a state you and me have no rights. Without a state you cannot own your house or anything. The owning of a house is contigent on a hole host of things that others have to do first. You don't seem to recognise this.

So even if you somehow never cost your local authority a penny, you still owe the state something for privilege of been able to buy a house and have it legally in your name.

The sooner this tax comes in the better. Irish people think too much me fein and need to get back to thinking of the idea of a state.

Tim robbins are you for real?! :-) really!? The sooner a tax comes in the better!? Are you some kind of sucker I mean it doesn't even make sense to say such thing unless of course you have alternative motives which I suspect....I guess you are a keen reich supporter of the heil FG party, a banker or maybe a rich capitalist?! Or maybe you just love your f.;:ing country...so why don't you give your state every f/;(ing penny you earn after you have fed yourself REMEMBER.... You might be nothing without the so called state but...The state is NOTHING without it's citizens.

Good loser · 06-11-2011 1:02am

origirover wrote: »

Tim robbins are you for real?! :-) really!? The sooner a tax comes in the better!? Are you some kind of sucker I mean it doesn't even make sense to say such thing unless of course you have alternative motives which I suspect....I guess you are a keen reich supporter of the heil FG party, a banker or maybe a rich capitalist?! Or maybe you just love your f.;:ing country...so why don't you give your state every f/;(ing penny you earn after you have fed yourself REMEMBER.... You might be nothing without the so called state but...The state is NOTHING without it's citizens.

Such abusive language. You're a new poster. Read some threads and follow the standards.

Surprised - as a socialist(?) - you oppose a property tax.

Does it matter that much to you if the money comes from your right pocket or your left pocket?

dermo88 · 06-11-2011 3:29am

Bukit Timah

1. I know that Bukit Timah is in Singapore, and its one of the most expensive places in the world. If you think for one minute Ireland is going to provide Singaporean style services, you must be bloody joking.

2. It also has the second most expensive land prices. Again, not really a valid comparison.

However. Its also clean, and efficient. Harry Lee would send the likes of chi bai (rude word) like Sean Fitzpatrick and Fingers Fingleton to Changi Jail for 20 years. While throwing their awful families into some HDB Flats in the middle of Punggol stacking shelves on 2 Euro an hour for eternity *(What a nice thought)

But Singapore is a country we'd like have in an ideal world. In Ireland....we're a bit too rebellious for that.

My view

(a) Land tax allowance. Like a tax free allowance on your income, you are allowed own/rent a certain amount of land in a given area tax free. The surplus above that, depending on its purpose is taxed at (say) 5 Euro per square meter per annum. Obviously residential would carry the highest tax rate, followed by commercial, then industrial and finally, agricultural would carry the lowest rate.

(b) This would vary across different local authorities.

(c) Water tax allowance also. Again, a certain amount tax free, and then the surplus taxed based on usage.

(d) A points system is used per household to ensure fairness. This prevents poorer households getting burdened excessively, while ensuring a contribution to local services.

PROPERTY TAX:

Adults get a full allowance (100 Points), Children, being in education are likely to be using local services such as schools and libraries more get 150 Points. Pensioners are given a weighting of 200 Points. Then (say) its a household of 2 Adults 2 Children, thats 500 Points. You will see the implications of this later, since it becomes an inverse rating taking into account ability to pay to an extent.

The next bit is the amount of land owned. Residential in this case. The family has a 3 bedroom house of 200 Square meters.

Adults - allowed 30 square meters each. Children...15 each.

So that comes to 90 Square meters.

The surplus of 110 Square meters is taxed. Thats 550 Euro per annum.

WATER

Again, the same system applies.

All people allowed 40,000 liters per annum (Not sure, its a ballpark figure)

The surplus taxed. So for our household...taking into account the average use in Ireland is 160 liters per annum:

We get 233,600 liters. They are allowed 150,000 liters. The surplus is 83,600 liters (83.6 Cubic meters).

This is taxed at the rate of 2 Euro per Cubic meter, giving 167.20 Euro.

The total bill for property and water is 717.20 Euro per annum.

AREA and POPULATION DENSITY....WEIGHTING

Dublin 4 and Dublin 24 are not exactly equal in their house prices. Its not fair to expect those in Dublin 24 to pay the same as those in Dublin 4.

Allowance:

(a) A capital valuation for a home is allowed of 50,000 Euro per person per household. Mortgage costs can be offset against the property tax for the first 10 years of a mortgage in the case of a first time buyer.

*Lets take our household again. Its in Dublin 12, next to a Luas stop, and is valued at 170,000 Euro.

170,000/200,000 = 0.85

0.85 x 717.20 = 609.62 Euro

(Ah....but lets say they are in Blackrock)....AND its worth 2.5 Million Euro.

2,500,000 / 200,000 = 12.5

12.5 x 717.20 = 8,965 Euro.

(b) We get back to the allowance and points system in section in. This again is a reverse index to encourage efficient land use.

So we have this household with 500 Points.

Its above 2 Adults 1 child which is the minimum desirable index at 250 Points.

250/500 = 0.5

We take our household in Dublin 12.

609.62 Euro x 0.5 = 304.81 Euro

And Blackrock.....

8,965 x 0.5 = 4,487.50 Euro

Or an unmarried couple. Now now.....before everyone starts screaming "discrimination", the weighting there is 250/200 or 1.25, so the index is "topheavy". Whats the aim here. Well....its to encourage people to have children. It may also reduce the incidence of empty properties and homelessness. That should be a desirable side effect.

Thats how I would work it. There would be a floor, a low level and the low level would be 200 Euro per household per annum. There would, however, by contrast be no upper threshold.

The aim would be to allow a more balanced taxation system, which should allow:

(a) Lower indirect taxes on fuel, transport, goods and services.
(b) Enable better public services for all with a wider tax base.
(c) Essentially Ireland was one of 4 countries which did not tax water use. It was also unique in only taxing property at the point of sale.
(d) The aim should be to encourage more efficient land use policies, based more on the quality of an area.

psychward · 06-11-2011 3:40am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Taxation is basically a redistribution of wealth .

And it's not being redistributed to those most in need at all. It's going to bankers, bond holders, unionized fatcats and special interests. And it's those who can least afford it who are working hardest to pay for this.

Einhard · 06-11-2011 6:02am

origirover wrote: »

Einhard, you must be on 100000€ + year or your a party member or politician in disguise because NO ONE says what you do around here (Limerick) and boycotts will surge nationwide.

Ireland is a F.?)Ed up country because of individuals like Einhard, law abiding, subordinate and subserving. God help the 1strepublics and democracies if Einhard and the like were around, then again they were around and got their heads chopped off!!

Thanks for that, fella. I got a laugh out of it!

Manach · 06-11-2011 10:36am

Whilst I'd disagree with Einhard on this topic and feel that this tax is incorrect, in general he's been an excellent & informative debater of the issues.

Icepick · 06-11-2011 12:34pm

People don't want to pay for drinking water but would not part with their Sky subscription. Some priorities...

ei.sdraob · 06-11-2011 12:53pm

Icepick wrote: »

People don't want to pay for drinking water but would not part with their Sky subscription. Some priorities...

FFS councils dont provide water out of goodness of their hearts
businesses handover alot of money in council fees and water charges to the councils, they also get money from other avenues
we already pay for water one way or another

if you think that a cent of the water charges would actually go to improve the water infrastructure then you are bigger fool, the money will go straight out to pay teachers wages and interest on loans

donalg1 · 06-11-2011 12:57pm

This is ridiculous we are all going to have to pay it so just suck it up and pay it, it's €2 per week ffs.

And I would assume anyone that says they aren't paying it have no sky tv, internet, android or iphone, no pc or laptop no luxury items whatsoever and a payment of €25 every 3 months is going to mean they are going to end up on the streets.

Get real and pay it otherwise you know where the airport is so see ya.

RichardAnd · 06-11-2011 1:11pm

bkeano wrote: »

come people are we going to take all this crap

Whilst I agree with you OPm the sad answer to this question is yes.

hatrickpatrick · 06-11-2011 1:25pm

I have no problem whatsoever paying taxes to help my country out.
What I do have a problem with is paying taxes to bail out millionaire bank exec and bondholders.

Show me proof that the money I'm paying is funding services for the Irish citizenry, and I will stop complaining about paying it. Show me that it's funding gamblers' mistakes, and my fury (along with countless others I'm sure) will continue to grow.

Mach Lei · 06-11-2011 4:20pm

In regards to the property tax, for anyone that,s opposed to it, there is a national boycott campaign being built that,s underway, we have already held many succesful meetings around the country in galway,cork,waterford, donegal, kilkenny, ...where the majority who have attended these meetings have agreed non payment is the only way to go,and remember if you decide to boycott it and not pay it, you won,t be by any means on your own, there are others like minded people who feel the same way, who have signed up to this campaign, check your local newspapers for meetings in your local area,further info check http://nohouseholdtax.org/ -Mach lei,)

Squall19 · 06-11-2011 4:28pm

Its not my property, Landlord can pay it.

If he even asks me to pay for it, I will be asking for a reduction in rent, I would only be happy to move.

Its because of bollix's like him that we are in this mess anyway.

Loads of idiots like himself thought they were very smart 5-8 years ago.

Fighting with each in bidding wars, for over priced property with an idea to make "easy money" by buying a few houses and renting them out to people like me working 45 hour weeks for peanuts every thursday.

Now I will have the last laugh:D

fat__tony · 06-11-2011 4:35pm

I think this thread is a prime example of how fiercely divided people are in the Ireland today.

You have people who can't take anymore pay cuts/tax hikes and are genuinely angry and you have those who shrug their shoulders, pay up and shut up. People are fighting, bickering and arguing with each other. Where is the unity?

I fear for the future of the country and I feel the so-called 'celtic tiger' and the subsequent bust has severely damaged the country beyond repair, economically and socially.

I will not be returning for this reason and that makes me sad.

gerryo777 · 06-11-2011 4:42pm

RedXIV wrote: »

As another someone with 2 kids, I sympathise. but I'm not gonna get thrown out of my house for an extra €9 a month

€9 a month next year, €90 a month a year soon after and where will it stop.
Enough is enough!

Ste.phen · 06-11-2011 4:47pm

Do the people who think such a tax is unfair have better ideas for raising 160m towards cutting the deficit?

I'm not even thinking about the bank bailout yet, or the payments on all the loans the EU and UK and IMF gave us, just the difference between govt services in 2011/2012 and the tax take in 2011/2012
Seems like a decent first tiny step to replacing the per-transaction stamp duty income that fell off a cliff when everyone stopped buying houses

gerryo777 · 06-11-2011 4:49pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have no problem whatsoever paying taxes to help my country out.
What I do have a problem with is paying taxes to bail out millionaire bank exec and bondholders.

Show me proof that the money I'm paying is funding services for the Irish citizenry, and I will stop complaining about paying it. Show me that it's funding gamblers' mistakes, and my fury (along with countless others I'm sure) will continue to grow.

Nail on the head comes to mind! Well said!

gerryo777 · 06-11-2011 4:52pm

Squall19 wrote: »

Its not my property, Landlord can pay it.

If he even asks me to pay for it, I will be asking for a reduction in rent, I would only be happy to move.

Its because of bollix's like him that we are in this mess anyway.

Loads of idiots like himself thought they were very smart 5-8 years ago.

Fighting with each in bidding wars, for over priced property with an idea to make "easy money" by buying a few houses and renting them out to people like me working 45 hour weeks for peanuts every thursday.

Now I will have the last laugh:D

Ah yea, Sure someone else will pay it for ya..

meglome · 06-11-2011 5:42pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

€9 a month next year, €90 a month a year soon after and where will it stop.
Enough is enough!

I imagine it'll stop when we can pay our bills, instead of massive borrowing to pay of bills. Though we probably should have thought about that when we were spending like there was no tomorrow.

Squall19 · 06-11-2011 6:19pm

meglome wrote: »

Though we probably should have thought about that when we were spending like there was no tomorrow.

Hate when people say that.

Like it was normal people that created this mess.

Who is the we anyway?

Because I am no property developer, like 99% of people in the country.

Are you?

Property in Ireland was worth 600 billion in 2006, now its worth 350 billion.

250 billion has vanished from the banks books and we the taxpayers pay 250 billion back.

Banks were money hungry and screwed ous, the end.

meglome · 06-11-2011 6:25pm

Squall19 wrote: »

Hate when people say that.

Like it was normal people that created this mess.

Who is the we anyway?

Because I am no property developer, like 99% of people in the country.

Are you?

Property in Ireland was worth 600 billion in 2006, now its worth 350 billion.

250 billion has vanished from the banks books and we the taxpayers pay 250 billion back.

Banks were money hungry and screwed ous, the end.

Again not to be the bringer of reality but the majority of the money we'll owe will be from day to day overspending and not the banks.

MOSSAD · 06-11-2011 6:27pm

Won't pay. Time for the pikes to be readied for use.

psychward · 06-11-2011 7:38pm

Ste.phen wrote: »

Do the people who think such a tax is unfair have better ideas for raising 160m towards cutting the deficit?

I'm not even thinking about the bank bailout yet, or the payments on all the loans the EU and UK and IMF gave us, just the difference between govt services in 2011/2012 and the tax take in 2011/2012
Seems like a decent first tiny step to replacing the per-transaction stamp duty income that fell off a cliff when everyone stopped buying houses

Yes. Yes I do. Abolish all quangos overnight. They cost the state roughly 15 billion per year so that talentless but well connected FF party hacks can get paid for doing nothing. We somehow managed to survive and approach full employment without the quangos. Eliminate bickering and make it fair by shutting them all with the stroke of a pen (our deficit eliminated). Supermarkets can have their rip off profits hit with a charge to cover the various food safety agencies and if they breach anything hit them harder with fines. They already charge the Irish consumer 14 to 20 % more than in the rest of Europe and wont tell us how much profits they make. If they wont raise prices they can start paying for their own regulation. They wont be able to raise prices further but will have to absorb the costs. Most of our deficit eliminated with the stroke of a pen. We survived in the 1990s and were heading towards full employment and a decent hope for the future without quangos telling the public how to tie their shoelaces safely. Eliminate such nonsense. You only have to look at how Bartholomew was employing his talentless mott with a fancy wage packet to attend a meeting once a week or less on one of these quangos to see what nonsense they are.
Only give statutory redundancy to anyone sacked by the state and the banks. The state and banks are insolvent bankrupt companies. Insolvent bankrupt companies don't do fancy redundancy packages. They pull down the shutters and tell you to feck off. Former employees of some bankrupt companies in the private sector get paid off by the taxpayer while others get told to feck off by the taxpayer. Why should one group be special and protected while the other has to starve ?All citizens should be equal.

gerryo777 · 06-11-2011 7:39pm

meglome wrote: »

Again not to be the bringer of reality but the majority of the money we'll owe will be from day to day overspending and not the banks.

If we didn't have to put 60 or 70 billion into the banks we would be in a far better place though.. But, sure as long as we behave and do what we're told and bring in more and more of these taxes we'll be seen as great little germans altogether.....

quaalude · 07-11-2011 3:50pm

psychward wrote: »

Yes. Yes I do. Abolish all quangos overnight. They cost the state roughly 15 billion per year so that talentless but well connected FF party hacks can get paid for doing nothing. We somehow managed to survive and approach full employment without the quangos. Eliminate bickering and make it fair by shutting them all with the stroke of a pen (our deficit eliminated). Supermarkets can have their rip off profits hit with a charge to cover the various food safety agencies and if they breach anything hit them harder with fines. They already charge the Irish consumer 14 to 20 % more than in the rest of Europe and wont tell us how much profits they make. If they wont raise prices they can start paying for their own regulation. They wont be able to raise prices further but will have to absorb the costs. Most of our deficit eliminated with the stroke of a pen. We survived in the 1990s and were heading towards full employment and a decent hope for the future without quangos telling the public how to tie their shoelaces safely. Eliminate such nonsense. You only have to look at how Bartholomew was employing his talentless mott with a fancy wage packet to attend a meeting once a week or less on one of these quangos to see what nonsense they are.
Only give statutory redundancy to anyone sacked by the state and the banks. The state and banks are insolvent bankrupt companies. Insolvent bankrupt companies don't do fancy redundancy packages. They pull down the shutters and tell you to feck off. Former employees of some bankrupt companies in the private sector get paid off by the taxpayer while others get told to feck off by the taxpayer. Why should one group be special and protected while the other has to starve ?All citizens should be equal.

Nice post, psychward.

psychward · 07-11-2011 5:39pm

quaalude wrote: »

Nice post, psychward.

Thanks . I wrote it in a hurry so saw an error just now.

Where I wrote : If they wont raise prices they can start paying for their own regulation.

I meant : If they wont ''lower'' prices they can start paying for their own regulation.

The point is if they wont absorb lower prices then force them to absorb higher charges for their own regulatory bodies etc. They know they cant raise prices in a recession and keep customers so they will have to absorb higher charges. It might force them to be more competitive.

meglome · 09-11-2011 5:34am

psychward wrote: »

Yes. Yes I do. Abolish all quangos overnight. They cost the state roughly 15 billion per year so that talentless but well connected FF party hacks can get paid for doing nothing.

How do you figure that abolishing all quangos would save 15 billion? Where did you get that figure from?

gerryo777 wrote: »

If we didn't have to put 60 or 70 billion into the banks we would be in a far better place though.

Oh undoubtedly we'd be better off if we didn't have to put that money into the banks. Though we will get most of the money back at some point hopefully, the overspending money is gone.

gerryo777 wrote: »

But, sure as long as we behave and do what we're told and bring in more and more of these taxes we'll be seen as great little germans altogether.....

I get the feeling you're using the 'great little Germans' phrase in a derogatory way. Personally if we'd even been half as sensible as the Germans we wouldn't be in this mess so I fail to see your point.

Liam Byrne · 09-11-2011 12:19pm

meglome wrote: »

gerryo777 wrote: »

If we didn't have to put 60 or 70 billion into the banks we would be in a far better place though.

Oh undoubtedly we'd be better off if we didn't have to put that money into the banks. Though we will get most of the money back at some point hopefully, the overspending money is gone.

Seriously ? How would you reckon we might be "getting it back" ?

Most of the money has gone into banks that are worth less than 3% of what was given to them, and that's not even including the contrived NAMA fiasco which has the idiots involved being paid another misdirected €200,000 per annum each to ensure that the properties don't drop too far below a supposed "discounted" buying price.....and NAMA was meant to chase the developers for the balance but refuses to do so.

Yeah, we'll make the money back alright :rolleyes:

Arfan · 09-11-2011 12:51pm

meglome wrote: »

I get the feeling you're using the 'great little Germans' phrase in a derogatory way. Personally if we'd even been half as sensible as the Germans we wouldn't be in this mess so I fail to see your point.

Sadly the German banks weren't sensible at all, hence why they're holding all these bad debts in the form of Greek and Irish banks.

fliball123 · 09-11-2011 1:29pm

subway wrote: »

too late, country f&cked.
pay up or leave. govt cant cut any more expenditure.

LIES complete lies

New Household Tax - Boycott

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