A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

marmurr1916 · 31-05-2011 6:51pm

sdonn wrote: »

...makes my case for an M4 from Sligo to Mullingar even more appropriate. It would serve more of, y'know, the country paying for it.

On second thouhgts...perhaps an extended M3 would be better. Nobody would use the M4 to get to Derry (but it would still serve more places than this proposed M2) - but an M3 to Eniskillen, Omagh and Derry would go through less of NI, cost less because there is already motorway as far as Kells, and doesn't have the basket case that is Slane in the way.

For example...red is M2 Blue with Green N-road D2 spur is M3:

Are you proposing both routes should be built? I don't think your M2 route as shown is going to work, especially since it passes through the Sperrin Mountains (shown as the Sperrins AONB, Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, on your map).

IMO, the main route from Dublin to Derry/Letterkenny is best served by a good-quality DC from Derry to near Monaghan, a proper Monaghan bypass, and then a 2+2 (with sufficient land reserved to enable eventual upgrade to HQDC) from south of Monaghan town to join the M1 near Dundalk.

AFAIK, a considerable section of the N2 between Castleblayney and Clontibret is already 2+1.

A route that roughly followed the line of the N53 from the M1 outside Dundalk to link up with the N2 south of Castleblayney (dipping south to avoid crossing the border, then curving back north) would surely be fairly quick and relatively cheap to build.

This route could then be signed as the official N2, branching off the M1 at Dundalk, cutting across and then up to Castleblayney, then roughly following the line of the existing N2 to join up with the improved A5 at the border.

SeanW · 02-06-2011 3:08pm

Thing is, up North they have a terrible fear of motorways - they haven't built ANY since the 1970s. Plenty of dual carriageway alright, but they're so averse to new blue signs that the N1-A1 link had to be HQDC in its entirity.

Perhaps Mysterious has some influence up there :rolleyes:

So if the objective were to be motorway to Donegal, the best idea would be to run it from Emyvale, Co. Monaghan, to Lifford, running for the shortest distance inside Northern Ireland.

Chris_5339762 · 02-06-2011 9:32pm

You wont get a motorway in the north, the entire of the UK is so completely anti-motorway thesedays. If the Newry bypass had been proposed as an M road, with exactly the same design as was built, it would have been fought to the bitter end.

Plowman · 02-06-2011 10:24pm

This post has been deleted.

Chris_5339762 · 03-06-2011 6:22pm

The UK has a lot of poor quality DC (and quite a bit of reasonable). However, after the government shoehorned Twyford Down through on the M3 (think the Tara or Glen of the Downs protests but much MUCH worse), public sentiment started to turn away from roads. Various government since, to buy votes from the hugely powerful green lobby over there, have cancelled basically everything, leaving the UK with bottlenecks far worse than anything we have over here that will probably never be resolved. (eg: Lyndhurst, Arudel, Stonehenge).

2km of S2 would bypass Lyndhurst but the trustees of the New Forest wont have any of it.
Stonehenge would be solved by a ~20km scheme of DC, it would be slightly more sensitive than Tara but this also got scrapped.
Arundel has an S2 bypass with at-grade roundabouts but they cant dual it properly due to opposition.

This is why we HAVE to get our road projects finished here before public sentiment invariably turns away from motorways.

Sponge Bob · 04-06-2011 12:39am

We really only need to build Cork - Galway , Galway Bypass to N59 and maybe Longford - Mullingar and the missing M11 piece. Our motorway network is then complete.

We need rather a lot of 2+2 thereafter but not Motorway/HQDC. 2+2 is only WS2 used better, that is the real message.

dubhthach · 04-06-2011 1:17am

I see that the A5 will pass within 50 meters of ruined castle of one of the Ó Néill. No doubt this will be used as a Carrickmines/Rath Lugh rolled into one by those opposed

http://www.gaelsceal.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=866:caislean-taoisigh-ghaelaigh-faoi-leigear&catid=14:nuacht-reigiunach&Itemid=106 (in Irish)

http://www.alternativea5alliance.com/harry_averys

Sponge Bob · 04-06-2011 9:58am

Have they put Isaac and Der Guckenspiel on the stand yet ???

dubhthach · 04-06-2011 11:26am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Have they put Isaac and Der Guckenspiel on the stand yet ???

Yup it's the second link on their webpage, so I bet he's acting as a "consultant"

marmurr1916 · 05-06-2011 11:30am

Eamon Gilmore has stated that the government remains committed to giving funding towards this route:

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has reaffirmed the Government’s commitment to cross-Border infrastructure programmes, including a cancer therapy unit in Derry and the main Dublin to Derry road, writes DAN KEENAN .

Mr Gilmore was on his first official visit to Belfast for talks since elections to the Dáil and the Assembly. After separate talks with First Minister Peter Robinson and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness at Stormont, Mr Gilmore said the Coalition would stand by spending commitments in Northern Ireland estimated at some €466 million. The planned A5 Western Transport Corridor is designed to provide 85km of new road between Derry and the Border at Aughnacloy, Co Tyrone.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0604/1224298388228.html

Zoney · 05-06-2011 11:34am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We really only need to build Cork - Galway , Galway Bypass to N59 and maybe Longford - Mullingar and the missing M11 piece. Our motorway network is then complete.

That's as may be, but it looks like we may be waiting for some time to have a motorway between the 2nd and 3rd cities in the state (M20). As such, even if our motorway network could be considered largely complete, this PR is to some extent undone by having such a major link omitted.

Sponge Bob · 05-06-2011 1:49pm

We should not forget the Monaghan - Aughnacloy seeing as there are some consultants scatching around on that scheme right now. I suspect it will make it to route selection and then it will be ditched.

Updated in the past few months.

http://www.monaghan.ie/websitev2/roads/N2Clontibret/FAQs.html

Question: Why are changes being proposed to the existing N2 between Clontibret and the Northern Ireland border?
Answer: The N2 between Clontibret and the Northern Ireland border is part of a strategic link servicing Derry and the Northwest, currently providing a poor Level of Service for users and has sections of substandard road with a poor safety record.
The need to improve the N2 as a strategic link is outlined in Transport 21 and the National Development Plan 2007-2013.
Question: What benefit will a new or upgraded road bring over the existing N2?
Answer: An upgraded road will achieve a better level of service for road users by reducing journey times and increasing safety levels whilst also generating wider social and economic benefits.
Question: Where will the final road go and where does it start and end?
Answer: The decision on the route has not been made yet (January 2011). A number of Route Corridor Options are currently being examined and consulted on.
The proposed route will start at the existing roundabout at Clontibret and will terminate at the Northern Ireland border to the south of Aughnacloy.
Question: When will the Preferred Route Corridor be made public?
Answer: The selection of the Preferred Route Corridor is programmed for 2011. Following the selection of the Preferred Route Corridor a Public Display will be held to inform members of the public.
Question: Have the public been consulted on the Scheme?
Answer: Yes, an initial public consultation in relation to the Constraints Study was held from the 13th to the 15th of July 2009 at venues in Clontibret, Emyvale and Monaghan Town.
The second public consultation took place on the 7th and 8th of July 2010 in Monaghan Town where a series of shortlisted Route Corridor Options were presented.
At both consultations, which were widely advertised, members of the public were able to provide feedback using comment forms.
Further public consultations will be held at later stages in the design process.
It should be noted that all public consultations held during the Feasibility, Constraints and Route Selection Phases of a road scheme are non-statutory and take place much earlier than required by the Roads Act. The Roads Act only provides for formal public consultation following the publication and submission to An Bord Pleanála of the Compulsory Purchase Order and Environmental Impact Statement (if required). If An Bord Pleanála decide to hold an Oral Hearing into objections to the scheme, then affected landowners (in the case of a CPO) and members of the public (in the case of an EIS) will have an opportunity to address any issues of concern in relation to the scheme.
Question: Why is the existing and recently constructed N2 Monaghan Town Bypass not being considered to form part of the proposed Scheme?
Answer: The N2 Monaghan Bypass is a 2.3km single carriageway road with 3 roundabout junctions over its length. Whilst this scheme fulfils the requirements of County Monaghan at a local level and serves as a relief road for Monaghan Town, the N2 Clontibret to NI Border Scheme focuses on improving the N2 as a strategic cross-border link thereby improving transport links between Donegal and Dublin.
Question: Is the Monaghan to Emyvale Realignment Scheme being considered as an option and why not just upgrade the existing N2 and bypass Emyvale?
Answer: As part of the Project Consultants commission, a review of the Monaghan to Emyvale Realignment Scheme has been undertaken. As a result the current Red Corridor Option contains elements of the Monaghan to Emyvale Realignment Scheme.
Sections of the existing N2 are also included in the current appraisal process.
Question: How does the new A5 route, being proposed between Derry and Aughnacloy, impact on the selection of the Preferred Route Corridor?
Answer: Whilst both schemes tie in at the same location they are being progressed as individual schemes as they are both in different jurisdictions. However, continuous consultation is undertaken with Road Service Northern Ireland (RSNI) and their appointed consultants to ensure that the schemes do not adversely impact each other.
Question: What type of cross section will be selected and will it be a motorway or dual carriageway?
Answer: No definitive recommendations on carriageway type have yet been made in relation to the scheme; this occurs at Design Phase when more detailed traffic, economic and environmental information is available. It should be noted that forecasted traffic volume is not the sole determinant as to whether a scheme is developed to dual carriageway or another standard. In practice, the decision on road type will be determined taking account of traffic and a range of other considerations, including consistency of alignment with adjacent schemes and safety considerations in this regard, scheme specific issues (e.g. topography, ground conditions), access requirements and restrictions, cost, road safety and Government strategy and policy objectives.
Question: Traffic levels have reduced on the existing N2. How is this change being taken into consideration?
Answer: The permanent traffic counter at Aughnacloy currently indicates that the AADT (Annual Average Daily Traffic) is of the order of 5,506; however this does not represent the AADT over the length of the study area for the scheme. In order to obtain more representative traffic data, additional traffic counts and surveys that cover the Study Area have been carried out as part of the Route Selection process for the scheme. Currently this information is being assessed and validated and a traffic model is being developed which will predict traffic patterns and AADTs for the design year for the scheme. The reduction in traffic volumes is being taken into account in this traffic model. For purposes of road design, traffic volumes are typically forecasted for a design year 15 years after anticipated road opening (generally equivalent to 18-20 years from the submission of the road scheme proposal to An Bord Pleanála for approval).
Question: The current N2 is a single carriageway road. What is the capacity of this road and can it not cater for the traffic volumes predicted?
Answer: In terms of traffic and capacity the maximum capacity of a Standard Single Carriageway designed and built in accordance with the NRA Design Manual for Roads and Bridges (DMRB) is of the order of 11,600. However the existing N2 may not necessarily adhere to the exacting standards contained within the DMRB (for example may not have hard shoulders, may have a smaller carriageway width or may have different junction types) and as such would have a far reduced capacity.
The existing N2 also has a large number of direct accesses which would further reduce capacity and would be contrary to NRA Policy on Development Management and Access to National Roads.
Question: How much will the Scheme cost?
Answer: The Feasibility Working Cost (FWC) for the scheme is of the order of €254m. This cost is an overall estimate and includes for construction, land costs, planning and design costs and VAT. It should be noted that the FWC is an order of magnitude estimate which is developed and updated as the scheme progresses and more detailed information becomes available. A more detailed cost estimate will be prepared as part of the Route Selection Report.
Question: How much are the consultants being paid to carry out the study?
Answer: The Consultant Engineers for the scheme have been appointed by Monaghan County Council using the Standard Conditions of Engagement for Consultancy Services as per the Department of Finance public procurement process.
Following a competitive tender in 2008, the consultants were commissioned to undertake a four year study for a fixed fee of €1.8M for a defined scope of works set out in the tender documentation and contract.

Sponge Bob · 05-06-2011 2:12pm

Once you get near Derry it is completely different.

http://www.roadsni.gov.uk/roadimprovements/2010_0330irlal.pdf

page 11 of 59

A5 north of Bolies AADT around 18000 in 2007 . There is no way they can avoid Dual south of Derry if they choose to do something.

Out of interest, here is how NI or UK Road capacity is calculated for a 50MPH road.

http://www.drdni.gov.uk/appendix_4.3_.pdf

The CRF represents the AADT that could be used for design purposes if that peak period congestion is acceptable.

The CRF is given by:
CRF = CAPACITY * NL * Wf * 100/PkF * 100PkD *AADT/AAWT
CAPACITY Maximum output per lane
Dual c/way = 2100 – 20 * %HGVs from examination of counter data, < 5%
= 2100 – 20* 5
= 2000vph
Single c/way = 1380 – 15 * %HGVs from examination of counter data, < 5%
= 1380 – 15* 5
= 1305vph
NL= number of lanes per direction
Dual c/way NL = 2
Single c/way NL = 1 (by definition a rural single c/way can only have 1 lane)
Wf = Width factor
( this takes account of whether lane widths are narrower or wider than the ‘standard’ 3.65m)
( carriageway widths exclude any hard strips)
Dual c/way = Cway width / (Number of lanes

The 'west of the Foyle ' road into Derry , from Lifford , carries 11000 AADT around here, some of which would go east of the river were there a dualler and Lifford/Strabane bypass.

Redsoxfan · 11-06-2011 11:26pm

£11m funding released for Aughnacloy-Derry

So seems like there's enough commitment for the 6 County section..from one side anyway.

Deedsie · 08-09-2011 8:03am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14811060

Funding has started from the Irish government.

munchkin_utd · 08-09-2011 8:58am

Deedsie wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14811060

Funding has started from the Irish government.

and committed to the project:

"The Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny recently said he remains committed to the project and it has emerged funding has already started."

Its a department of taoiseach baby so its his money to spend borrow from the IMF

spacetweek · 08-09-2011 11:17am

I really must protest vociferously.

This huge project is only going ahead because of politics. Road planning has been wiped from the board both north and south because of it for several years now. It will be 2014 before you see any significant activity anywhere on the island. In the Republic we're told that road building has been curtailed due to austerity, but the gov has £400M to throw at this! Nuts.

Wouldn't it be far wiser to split this into three parts, as has been pointed out many times? Derry-Strabane has the highest traffic and is the most urgently needed segment. We could build pieces of this over 10-15 years instead of clearing the board for several years in order to commit all our much-strained resources towards it.

It hardly needs to be asked how this can be a higher priority than a bypass for Galway City.

Deedsie · 08-09-2011 12:04pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I really must protest vociferously.

This huge project is only going ahead because of politics. Road planning has been wiped from the board both north and south because of it for several years now. It will be 2014 before you see any significant activity anywhere on the island. In the Republic we're told that road building has been curtailed due to austerity, but the gov has £400M to throw at this! Nuts.

Wouldn't it be far wiser to split this into three parts, as has been pointed out many times? Derry-Strabane has the highest traffic and is the most urgently needed segment. We could build pieces of this over 10-15 years instead of clearing the board for several years in order to commit all our much-strained resources towards it.

It hardly needs to be asked how this can be a higher priority than a bypass for Galway City.

Ever been to Donegal?

NITransport · 08-09-2011 1:10pm

Another piece of dribble from Belfast Telegraph that initially excited me by its title, but when read, doesn't actually say anything other that Danny Kennedy rhetoric. "I'm remain committed to this, I remain committed to that... but I don't actually commit to anything!"

Minister alleviates funding fears over £850m Derry-Dublin road

Transport Minister Danny Kennedy last night gave his backing to the £850m dual carriageway project which will link Londonderry and Dublin.

It has now emerged that the Department for Regional Development has contributed more than half of the £38m spent to date on the A5 Western Corridor project.

The largest roads project on the island of Ireland, the scheme will see Dublin linked with Derry, Strabane, Omagh and Donegal via the border at Aughnacloy.

It emerged yesterday that the Irish government has also stumped up £19m towards both the A5 and the A8 Belfast to Larne projects to date.

Mr Kennedy revealed the spending following concerns raised over a letter he sent to Derry City Council in July in which he said he intended to “consider proposed investments across my department”.

However, the minister revealed last night in a statement to the Telegraph: “I support improvements to the A5, A8 and other arterial routes in Northern Ireland.

“The A5 public inquiry has still to report and I will study the independent inspector’s report and recommendations before concluding my consideration.

“My department has already committed funding to develop the A5 Western Transport Corridor dualling project with £38m being spent between November 2007 and August 2011. This includes £19m from the RoI government which is towards the A5 and A8 projects.”

The minister added: “This funding has paid for professional fees associated with the development of the scheme as well as a number of surveys and indeed input from the joint venture contractors who provided advice during the scheme development and public inquiry.

“It also includes costs associated with the many public consultation events and public inquiry held during May and June 2011.”

The minister had faced pressure from MLAs in the north west yesterday to commit to the project after the Irish government reiterated that it is intent on meeting its total funding commitment of €400m.

Foyle SDLP MLA Colum Eastwood emphasised the positive ramifications that the road project will have for the city of Derry.

He said: “The A5 will significantly cut motorists’ travelling time to the capital in Dublin, it will massively improve road safety and its construction will create jobs. This significant infrastructure project will also hopefully mark a small beginning in rebalancing the historical under investment in the west.”

And I'm sorry but do you know what its like to come from the only damn region on this god forsaken island that doesn't have a decent university, road network, rail connections or anything. With this in mind this one project that could single handled shut up all those who say west of the Bann discrimination with one piece of investment. That's a lot more important than some bypass for Galway.

Finally I'd like to point out that Britain has committed to providing £8 billion to the ROI Government, admittedly to protect its own interests, but I'd like to see a small percentage of that being used on a piece of infrastructure that will ensure that the North West in one way is on an even playing field with all other Irish regions. Instead of further providing additional liquidity to ailing banks which truly is throwing money away. RANT. OVER.

jimmycrackcorm · 08-09-2011 1:20pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Derry-Strabane has the highest traffic and is the most urgently needed segment.

I don't agree with this. Strabane - Omagh is extremely heavy. It's more than commuter traffic.

lucernarian · 08-09-2011 3:36pm

NITransport wrote: »

And I'm sorry but do you know what its like to come from the only damn region on this god forsaken island that doesn't have a decent university, road network, rail connections or anything. With this in mind this one project that could single handled shut up all those who say west of the Bann discrimination with one piece of investment. That's a lot more important than some bypass for Galway.

Finally I'd like to point out that Britain has committed to providing £8 billion to the ROI Government, admittedly to protect its own interests, but I'd like to see a small percentage of that being used on a piece of infrastructure that will ensure that the North West in one way is on an even playing field with all other Irish regions. Instead of further providing additional liquidity to ailing banks which truly is throwing money away. RANT. OVER.

I don't think west of the Bann discrimination will be alleviated by one megaproject which is arguably overengineered compared to doing more work with the A6 from Belfast to Derry which is well known to be congested. And as far as the NW in general's concerned, the road from Lifford to near Manorcunningham (the N14) is in a deplorable condition and perhaps building that would better serve those coming from the bulk of Donegal as well as cross-border transport in getting the Derry-Omagh stretch built first.

doopa · 08-09-2011 5:19pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't think west of the Bann discrimination will be alleviated by one megaproject which is arguably overengineered compared to doing more work with the A6 from Belfast to Derry which is well known to be congested. And as far as the NW in general's concerned, the road from Lifford to near Manorcunningham (the N14) is in a deplorable condition and perhaps building that would better serve those coming from the bulk of Donegal as well as cross-border transport in getting the Derry-Omagh stretch built first.

Whilst I'm glad to see this road going ahead it would be a shame if its at the expense of the Derry-Belfast road which is also badly needed. I'm hard pressed to think of two other UK cities (of similar sizes) with such poor infrastructure between them (what with the rail link under constant threat of closure in addition to the crappy road).

Sponge Bob · 09-09-2011 3:28pm

Don't worry, Noel Dempsey flew out of Derry in a jet last year to kill this project off in London. NI Politicians are merely waiting for the inevitable announcement and the sequencing has been choreographed between Dempsey and London.

It is administrativelysub judice pending the publication of the Inspectors report, that is all.

doopa · 07-10-2011 11:34am

BBC update - money to be taken from the A5 upgrade to pay for the rail link to Belfast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15206593

dubhthach · 07-10-2011 3:17pm

doopa wrote: »

BBC update - money to be taken from the A5 upgrade to pay for the rail link to Belfast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15206593

that's from the Northern Ireland executive budget though and not from the contribution we are suppose to be making. I think of course we'll find out come budget day wether that will go ahead. The fact that the two important linking road schemes in Donegal were "cancelled" might cause some doubts.

hi5 · 09-11-2011 2:27pm

Looks like our contribution is to be postponed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1109/roads.html

The Government is set to postpone its commitment to fund 88km of motorway in Northern Ireland that would link Co Monaghan with Co Derry.

The proposed A5 dual-carriageway was to run from the border near Aughnacloy through Omagh and Strabane to Derry.

The work was to be funded by the Government and Northern Ireland's powersharing executive and was part of the St Andrew's Agreement in 2006

doopa · 09-11-2011 2:43pm

So I guess that's it then.

Though I have seen a fair bit of construction along parts of the route. Mainly seems to be road straightening though, north of Monaghan which is in fairness one of the worst parts of the road.

Tech3 · 09-11-2011 3:24pm

As expected the Irish government will not fund this construction of this scheme. Many of us knew there was little to no chance that this scheme would be partly funded. There is simply no money available to build the high priority schemes never mind the A5.

marmurr1916 · 09-11-2011 9:52pm

Game over:

The Irish government has withdrawn funding for a major road upgrade in Northern Ireland.

It was to have provided £400m towards the cost of the A5 Londonderry to Aughnacloy road upgrade.

The total cost of the 55-mile upgrade - which would create a key cross-border business route linking Dublin to the north west - was to be £850m.

The Republic's Transport Minister Leo Varadkar said his government remained "politically committed to the A5".

He said he expected work to take place in the future, but £400m was "an enormous commitment and difficult to honour given what we're facing".

NI Finance Minister Sammy Wilson said he was disappointed, but understood the Irish government's position.

"They couldn't give a commitment between now and 2016," he said.

"Our budget only runs to 2014-15 so there's no money coming within our own budget period.

"For this budget period the road cannot be financed and cannot be built."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15658959

kennykill · 10-11-2011 1:57pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1110/budget_capital.html

Well that's the nail in the coffin for many more 100's of engineers in this country. When 50 jobs are lost in a call center there's uproar, but when they pull finance on projects already being worked on there's no word of the 100's of jobs lost as a result. Not commencing with at least one major infrastructure project in the next 4-5 years is disgraceful and now we'll see even more engineers and highly qualified workers leave these shores for at least 5 years. I am now going to be one of those thanks to these cuts. Focused on job creation they say, try keeping the jobs we already have first.

A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

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