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N2 - Slane Bypass [planning decision pending]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Slane Resident


    Really? Dammit, why did nobody think of that before? :rolleyes:

    Firstly, how?

    Secondly, what about the 84% not served by the M1/M3 who need to access areas around the Ashbourne/Slane/Ardee area?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Really? Dammit, why did nobody think of that before? :rolleyes:

    Firstly, how?

    They did and then that was brushed aside to back the case for the bypass.

    Secondly, what about the 84% not served by the M1/M3 who need to access areas around the Ashbourne/Slane/Ardee area?

    They can go around just like they go around in Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Slane Resident


    you have absolutely no knowledge of the local area, do you?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    you have absolutely no knowledge of the local area, do you?

    Yes, I do.

    Do you have much knowledge of the Dublin ban area?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    monument wrote: »
    Local traffic from a nearby quarry?
    Could be. He (or she) could also be a determined toll dodger. But I didn't think you cared about local traffic that much?
    Look if Drogheda is the alternative for M1 toll, it'll be also fine as an alternative to a Slane area HGV ban.
    It's the alternative for the M1 toll primarily because it used to be the N1 - that's how these things are usually done, toll motorway opens, old road running in near paralell becomes a regional road and the alternate route.

    If I had my way, the rules on alternate routes would be even tighter, and tolls on a towns' primary bypass would be illegal unless the alternate route was on a secondary bypass, like at Enfield. Dundalk would also be a handy place for a toll since it has an Eastern Bypass. But I don't write the rules.

    There is no precedent for an alternative route being another toll road 10 miles away, like what you're proposing for the M3. That's just bizarre. Have you even looked at a map of the are for heaven's sake? You might as well propose sending trucks on the N7.
    You're only showing me one alternative to the Westlink which allows HGVs, and that alternative is of about the same or lesser quality than Drogheda.
    There's little requirment for quality of the alternative, it just has to exist - which it does. Like with Drogheda, the "old road" is the alternative, which is how it has worked in all motorway regulation orders & tolls, also most HGV bans to date.
    An alternative to this is for the state to subsidies HGVs on the M1.
    That might work for Dublin-Derry traffic. But that's only part of the HGV flow - and possibly a very small part of it.
    You can force the HGVs around to the larger roads, the M1 and M3
    Think about this for a minute - if it were such a trivial matter to ban HGVs when there is no toll free unrestricted alternative, why do the following towns:
    1. Drogheda (M1 toll)
    2. Lucan (M50 toll)
    3. Clonard (M4 toll)
    4. Abbeyleix (M8 toll)
    5. Durrow (M8 toll)
    6. Johnstown (M8 toll)
    7. Fermoy (M8 toll)
    8. Watergrasshill (M8 tool)
    not have HGV bans? These towns are choked with toll dodging lorries (and cars), because the bypass basically doesn't exist as far as the drivers are concerned. Use your brain for 5 minutes and ask why this is the case?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    monument wrote: »
    Yes, I do.

    Do you have much knowledge of the Dublin ban area?
    I really am not sure that you do. The extent of the comparisons you've made with the Dublin Port Tunnel is bordering on the absurd. I for one would also love to see a HGV ban on the R132 if it were workable, seeing as I've had to cycle (and walk) that route many times. But it hasn't happened. If trucks are entitled to have a toll-free route and there was a HGV ban imposed, then there would be no such toll-free route to go from e.g. Dundalk to the industrial estates in Drogheda.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    @SeanW -- had a more detailed post written up but closed the tab, anyway, in short:

    I agree that tolls on bypasses can be counter productive and push traffic onto unsuited roads (with the exception of the likes of the Port Tunnel which is aimed to be keep trucks and public transport moving). Tolls can also unfairly 'catch' just a percentage of the users of a road.

    If needed, since it is not in a position to build a bypass, the government could help the council put in a HGV ban by funding the subvention of the M1 toll for HGVs... or this could be done just for proven local traffic.

    But the Dublin HGV restriction area is larger. There's no free route for larger HGVs between the Dublin HGV ban and other restrictions in the area is larger than the detour from the N2 before Slane to the alternative untolled routes and around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    My primary point was that if all the towns I mentioned could have HGV bans, it's a safe bet that at least some of them would. But they don't.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    It's about a few things, mainly: Some type of a need for a ban and a will to put it in force.

    Slane has an overriding need, it just needs the will.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ...and an ability to wilfully ignore the place of precedent in Irish law.

    The only precedent for a HGV ban that doesn't actually sign toll-free routes for all traffic is an incomparable situation and involved 700M+ of infrastructure to be built to allow for it.

    There is no such work being done at Slane.

    You also fail to realise that a ban was considered before the most recent works done - those which seperate cars from all traffic larger than cars (vans, buses, light trucks, 3 and 4 axle HGVs, etc - all vehicles the ban you love to compare to allows through) - and wasn't implemented as it wasn't workable. Nothing has changed to make it workable. Nothing will change to make it workable until there is a bypass.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    ...and an ability to wilfully ignore the place of precedent in Irish law.

    The only precedent for a HGV ban that doesn't actually sign toll-free routes for all traffic is an incomparable situation and involved 700M+ of infrastructure to be built to allow for it.

    There is no such work being done at Slane.

    If there is precedent in Irish law please cite the case law. Put up or shut up... otherwise it's clear that you're mistaking the term "precedent in Irish law" as something it is not.

    There is no signed free route north-south around the Dublin ban. Sure the port tunnel was put in place for traffic to/from the port, but there's so such free route from the north of the city to the south of the city. Even traffic coming from the south and west to the port have to pay the Westlink toll or take alternatives which are around the same of worse than alternative east of the M1.

    MYOB wrote: »
    You also fail to realise that a ban was considered before the most recent works done - those which seperate cars from all traffic larger than cars (vans, buses, light trucks, 3 and 4 axle HGVs, etc - all vehicles the ban you love to compare to allows through) - and wasn't implemented as it wasn't workable. Nothing has changed to make it workable. Nothing will change to make it workable until there is a bypass.

    And the ban was dropped because the bypass was still a likelihood. Now, the bypass is a distance dream, so the council and NRA have to deal with reality or they can continue to put life at risk.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    all extant bans and their planning decisions are the precedent - all required fully signed free routes before implementation. The Dublin ban is not a hgv ban but a part time ban on a fraction of the type of risky traffic in slane, and your continual reliance on comparing to it shows how weak your argument is.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    all extant bans and their planning decisions are the precedent - all required fully signed free routes before implementation. The Dublin ban is not a hgv ban but a part time ban on a fraction of the type of risky traffic in slane, and your continual reliance on comparing to it shows how weak your argument is.

    Sure, if that's true, then just use the current M1 and M3 alternatives and signpost to them.

    But it is not even clear that what you are saying is required. When talking about weaker precedent (ie planning decisions, if such are really precedent in this case at all, are weaker than court decisions), you have to take into account of detail.

    The massively larger risk in Slane on balance could justify restrictions larger than elsewhere.

    Re the Dublin ban -- it's about dealing with risk as much as possible. Lowering the risks be even just talking part of the risk away is far better than nothing! Also Dublin has the powers to implement a more extensive ban, both time wise and other types of trucks - what it currently has is a comprise outside of any legal requirement.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    the m1 is at capacity towards the city and non free. The m3 is non free and wildly out of the way. Neither meets any standards to be a diversion route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    monument wrote: »
    If there is precedent in Irish law please cite the case law. Put up or shut up... otherwise it's clear that you're mistaking the term "precedent in Irish law" as something it is not.
    Ok. Let's assume - for the sake of argument - that everyone on this forum except you (and the Save Newgrange (i.e. **** Slane) brigade) is wrong. Then tell me why do the following towns:

    1. Drogheda (M1 toll)
    2. Lucan (M50 toll)
    3. Clonard (M4 toll)
    4. Abbeyleix (M8 toll)
    5. Durrow (M8 toll)
    6. Johnstown (M8 toll)
    7. Fermoy (M8 toll)
    8. Watergrasshill (M8 tool)

    not have HGV bans?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    the m1 is at capacity towards the city and non free. The m3 is non free and wildly out of the way. Neither meets any standards to be a diversion route.

    What I mean is divert traffict to the alternatives already provided for the M1 and M3. Those diversions must fit the bill already, mostly what would be needed is more sign points north and south of Slane to where those alternatives. Towards the M1 will suit many and giving the towards M3 option will be helpful to others.

    Another option overall would be to fully or partly subvent the tolls on the M1 for HGVs. Partly meaning this could be done for only for proven local traffic which is put out the most -- and diverting long distance traffic is harly putting it out of the way at all.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    SeanW wrote: »
    monument wrote: »
    If there is precedent in Irish law please cite the case law. Put up or shut up... otherwise it's clear that you're mistaking the term "precedent in Irish law" as something it is not.
    Ok. Let's assume - for the sake of argument - that everyone on this forum except you (and the Save Newgrange (i.e. **** Slane) brigade) is wrong. Then tell me why do the following towns:

    1. Drogheda (M1 toll)
    2. Lucan (M50 toll)
    3. Clonard (M4 toll)
    4. Abbeyleix (M8 toll)
    5. Durrow (M8 toll)
    6. Johnstown (M8 toll)
    7. Fermoy (M8 toll)
    8. Watergrasshill (M8 tool)

    not have HGV bans?

    What claim are you trying to make now?

    That tolls must have free alternatives by law?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    you were concerned about costs of (notional, non existent) toll dodging earlier and now you're suggesting subventing same...

    The m1 alternative is so above capacity that Juliantown practically needs a bypass already, and the roads to the m3 alternative are in dire need of upgrades. Why spend money there and not on slane?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    monument wrote: »
    What claim are you trying to make now?

    That tolls must have free alternatives by law?
    Not necessarily. I'm asking you to explain why these towns do not have HGV bans?
    monument wrote:
    M3
    You're still on about the M3? Have you even looked at a map of the area? The M3 is 10 miles away over Non National roads. It also goes in a dramatically different direction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    From the scarce details on this up to now, it remains unclear if a bypass/hgv ban for through traffic would have made a difference but anyway yet another tragedy has happened at Slane.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/crash-slane-drogheda-road-714954-Dec2012/

    RIP.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    From the scarce details on this up to now, it remains unclear if a bypass/hgv ban for through traffic would have made a difference but anyway yet another tragedy has happened at Slane.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/crash-slane-drogheda-road-714954-Dec2012/

    RIP.

    Well the famous 22 crosses will become 23 - it's a disgrace!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    But they should all have been on a bicycle according to our Green Overlords. !!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    But they should all have been on a bicycle according to our Green Overlords. !!!

    +1

    Yes, it's really disgraceful how much representation these people have in this country - all for democracy! :rolleyes:

    I really think our constitution is shot - we need a new republic that represents the people, not just the few narrow minded interests like ideologists, IBEC, bankers, farmers, certain professions, CIF, speculators etc... It's time this country served it's people! :mad:


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    But they should all have been on a bicycle according to our Green Overlords. !!!

    Somebody is dead. Not the best time for a bit of nonsensical muck slinging, but that won't stop you.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    monument wrote: »
    Somebody is dead. Not the best time for a bit of nonsensical muck slinging, but that won't stop you.

    Had there not been "nonsensical muck slinging" in the first place, much of it coming from serial objectors and in this very thread, then Slane could well have been bypassed by now.

    Had Slane been bypassed by now that poor gentleman may well be alive today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Slane Resident


    A very sad day in Slane today. Rest in peace, Jimmy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    For what it is worth, the recent fatality was on the N51, so not affected directly by the N2 bypass. That said a link road to the N51 west of Slane would seem an obvious extension to an bypass, unless a bigger DOOR scheme gets going.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    ardmacha wrote: »
    For what it is worth, the recent fatality was on the N51, so not affected directly by the N2 bypass. That said a link road to the N51 west of Slane would seem an obvious extension to an bypass, unless a bigger DOOR scheme gets going.
    This is why I mentioned how the bypass may not have prevented this accident. But it must be noted that many trucks will come from the N51-Drogheda side to take a left or right on to the N2, and in that case the bypass would have prevented this unfortunate tragedy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    This is why I mentioned how the bypass may not have prevented this accident. But it must be noted that many trucks will come from the N51-Drogheda side to take a left or right on to the N2, and in that case the bypass would have prevented this unfortunate tragedy.
    And if the truck was going to the N2, then the Save Newgrange brigade have blood on their hands and should gloriously point to the consequences of their success.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Had there not been "nonsensical muck slinging" in the first place, much of it coming from serial objectors and in this very thread, then Slane could well have been bypassed by now.

    Had Slane been bypassed by now that poor gentleman may well be alive today.

    Still nonsensical.

    SeanW wrote: »
    And if the truck was going to the N2, then the Save Newgrange brigade have blood on their hands and should gloriously point to the consequences of their success.

    You could just as easily say that the anti-HGV ban "brigade" or the anti-traffic calming "brigade" have "blood on their hands and should gloriously point to the consequences of their success". But all of that would be nonsensical too.


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