IMO chief exec lump sum

MrCreosote · 21-12-2012 9:39am #1

From today's Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1221/1224328083699.html

I know it was probably in the contract and knowledge that was available to all members up to now, but that is a totally unjustifiable payment in my opinion. It's one thing if you're the boss of a huge ball-breaking union that's getting concessions for its members left, right and centre, but for representing 5000 members?

RobFowl · 21-12-2012 9:48am

MrCreosote wrote: »

From today's Times:

5000 members? -1

FYP

opinion guy · 21-12-2012 10:10am

MrCreosote wrote: »

I know it was probably in the contract and knowledge that was available to all members up to now

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1221/1224328082958.html

iratira · 21-12-2012 10:28am

I am sick reading that. I can't understand how someone who is meant to be fighting on the ground with the people can do that.
No wonder membership costs of the IMO are extortionate.
It's a lot more demoralizing when you realize why the costs are so extortionate.
As an aside, consultants should be ashamed of how they handled the new decreased wages for new recruits. They just turned a blind eye- at least nurses have some sense of fairness and support of their colleagues.
And for the record I think consultants wage is too high but a two tiered system- that's just disrespectful and unfair.

dissed doc · 21-12-2012 11:37am

iratira wrote: »

I am sick reading that. I can't understand how someone who is meant to be fighting on the ground with the people can do that.
No wonder membership costs of the IMO are extortionate.
It's a lot more demoralizing when you realize why the costs are so extortionate.
As an aside, consultants should be ashamed of how they handled the new decreased wages for new recruits. They just turned a blind eye- at least nurses have some sense of fairness and support of their colleagues.
And for the record I think consultants wage is too high but a two tiered system- that's just disrespectful and unfair.

True. They make it sounds like the IMO has developed itself from scratch to get so many members, but in fact it was legally the only representative body for doctors. Thus, in typical UK style, doctors were unable to negotiate outside of the IMO who could then be trailed along happily by governments. Hence the IHCA.

The IMO is and always was a ball and chain/hangman's noose on irish doctors. The IMO actively avoid focussing entirely on doctor's employment standards/rights/contracts and have successfully (on behalf of the government) gotten rid of training money, gotten reduced salaries, avoided implementing the european working time directive. This is why they appear politically powerless and why they "lose" all negotations with the government )and why if you genuinely want something done like your contract fulfilled, you have to take personal lawsuits and bypass the IMO entirely'.

All in all, the IMO is amazing at implementing government policy against doctors and convincing doctors at the same time to pay €1000 a year to be sodomised by the HSE, government and IMO.

RE± consultants. They were absolutely clear multiple times that they do not want a two tier split and want to maintain standardised national salaries. However, the government and the electorate don´t want that, and it will be easier to manipulate new vs old consultants like public vs. private. Long game, over the next 5 years or so.Divide and conquer, etc.,

MrCreosote · 21-12-2012 11:51am

Anyone know the funding streams for the IMO

5000 members at an average of 1000/year is only 5 million euro. 10% of that on one salary? I'm suppose there are other sources of funding?

RobFowl · 21-12-2012 11:53am

MrCreosote wrote: »

Anyone know the funding streams for the IMO

5000 members at an average of 1000/year is only 5 million euro. 10% of that on one salary? I'm suppose there are other sources of funding?

Most members are NCHD's and on a lower subs, no other source of income AFAIK.
I'm absolutely sickened with this news and am waiting for a reply from them but planning toresign my membership later today...

iratira · 21-12-2012 11:56am

Yes that was the IHCA's stance but it was a passive stance as far as I can see. I understand its what the electorate want. I don't necessarily disagree.
I just think that people making these changes underestimate the issue of equality and respect. The consultant salary is still much more than alot of people earn but I think the feeling a 2 tiered system creates will be bad for morale.
Perhaps I'm wrong as 100k is still a wage that allows a nice lifestyle.
As for the IMO, as far as I know they get all the interns to sign up then most people realize what a load of crap it is and opt out after a few years.
The younger docs probably are more trusting, until they read that article in the paper today! I am pleased that journalists can uncover such abuses.

iratira · 21-12-2012 11:57am

Yes that was the IHCA's stance but it was a passive stance as far as I can see. I understand its what the electorate want. I don't necessarily disagree.
I just think that people making these changes underestimate the issue of equality and respect. The consultant salary is still much more than alot of people earn but I think the feeling a 2 tiered system creates will be bad for morale.
Perhaps I'm wrong as 100k is still a wage that allows a nice lifestyle.
As for the IMO, as far as I know they get all the interns to sign up then most people realize what a load of crap it is and opt out after a few years.
The younger docs probably are more trusting, until they read that article in the paper today! I am pleased that journalists can uncover such abuses.

ThatDrGuy · 21-12-2012 12:02pm

Thanks for this post OP. I nearly had a mi when I read it. I cant believe I ever gave those fuçkers money. Performance-related bonus ? For what? My god funding this guy and his lump sum and his persion is going to eat up the fee's of every NCHD in the country. He is retiring at 55 while the people he was supposed to represent are ignored, marginalised and exploited. Getting chest pain just thinking about it. What is wrong with the Irish ? Why can't we do anything right?

dissed doc · 21-12-2012 12:10pm

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

Thanks for this post OP. I nearly had a mi when I read it. I cant believe I ever gave those fuçkers money. Performance-related bonus ? For what? My god funding this guy and his lump sum and his persion is going to eat up the fee's of every NCHD in the country. He is retiring at 55 while the people he was supposed to represent are ignored, marginalised and exploited. Getting chest pain just thinking about it. What is wrong with the Irish ? Why can't we do anything right?

Nothing to do with the `Irish`. It´s the hierarchy system just like the UK. For example, the BMA act in precisely the same way, even ignoring a succesful ballot for industrial action to keep the charade going. The IMO keeps Irish doctors packaged up, by law no/one can negotiate terms and conditions except the IMO and at the end of the day, most of the cash is moved up the hierarchy or feudal system to the few at the top.

Ironically, the IMO will be completely unable to (surprise) pursue legal action against breaches of contract by the single state employer (HSE) as the money will be directed to his pension. What do you do. the IMO as the only legal representative body in Ireland for doctors in training has every intention based on it´s previous actions to undermine doctors and keep them in line for successive goverments to destroy both professionally and financially.

But that is what the public electorate want. Its important to remind yourself of that when you leave.

iratira · 21-12-2012 12:12pm

Don't waste your health on them. Yes you were exploited. We were all exploited ( docs) but now hopefully as this abuse has been recovered, people will cop on and withdraw funding from them.
perhaps there are good people involved with the IMO who are not just on the take and I feel sorry for them if they exist but let's be honest, they knew what was going on in the organisation and didn't do anything to change it ( or maybe did try - dunno ).
My advice is keep your 1000k for yourself don't hand it over to this organization. If they dropped the membership fees and made the organization more transparent perhaps they could rebuild their reputation.

2Scoops · 21-12-2012 12:31pm

The IMO's income is almost all from membership subs. They operate at a small profit every year, 2/3rds of income goes on salary and and pensions and the rest is spent on overheads and pet projects. This retirement deal, coupled with an expected further decrease in membership for 2012, will more than likely put them in the red. Might be a much-needed wake-up call. The IMO is not a union; it's a 'medical organization' i.e. delusions of grandeur. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that if there was a legal alternative for Irish doctors to join.

iratira · 21-12-2012 12:37pm

I read the article but couldn't understand it properly. Its more than a little confusing for a pleb like me. Can anyone with a better knowledge of the area explain what is being said in the Irish times article.

opinion guy · 21-12-2012 12:40pm

If you all only read the OP's link you need to read this one also to fully appreciate this story:

opinion guy wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1221/1224328082958.html

Edit: short summary - pension was renegotiated from original agreement and union fought to be able to give it to him last year. Now they have had to get legal advice before announcing it lest the be accused of 'reckless trading'.

Reckless trading is a financial legal term to do with the obligations on directors and is the sort of thing banks would be proud of:
http://www.smurfitschool.ie/aboutsmurfit/news/facultyviews/title,73224,en.html

In short.....SERIOUS questions need asking and answering here.....

iratira · 21-12-2012 12:49pm

Wow! I'm stunned. Its curious how they recently blocked their page to non members also so you can't even read general articles.
Did they think that would entice us to Re join?
Gosh is there anyone out there whos going to stick with the IMO and if so, can you explain why. I'm interested and open minded to hear about any pros of being a member.

2Scoops · 21-12-2012 1:10pm

More on this controversy by the Irish Medical Times:
http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/12/breaking-news-imo-announces-retirement-plans-for-ceo-george-mcneice.html

Oh wait, they didn't even mention the controversy. Just a few kind words about how IMO is the 'undisputed representative body for Irish doctors' and how membership has swelled... since the 1980s. :pac:

iratira · 21-12-2012 2:21pm

Well it probably swells every year when the IMO bring newly qualified interns out for a night out somewhere, feed then with booze and scaremonger them into joining telling them that x y or z could happen to them. After that they are so busy that most won't even reconsider their membership til they cop on to what a rip it is.
Interns, medical students- be aware of the tactics employed.

ThatDrGuy · 21-12-2012 4:00pm

The more I think about this, the angrier I get. 492,355 euro.... When I left
it took nearly a whole week's salary to pay the IMO after tax. That week was about 75 hours ( most of it not paid - thanks to the IMO!). I think I paid about 600 euro at the time, so I probably worked about 50 hours (including the ones that apparently didnt happen ) just to pay the IMO. How much of my money was sucked straight into this guys bank account ? All of it. And all the money of around 820 other NCHD's. That means we worked 41,000 hours combined just to lined this fuçker's pockets per year. His lump sum will require another 125,000 hours of doctors lives. Money that was supposed to go to fight for things like safe working conditions ( ignored ) training ( ignored ) leave entitlements ( ignored ) sick leave ( ignored ) fighting against bullying and exploitation ( ignored). Money given in good faith by people to try and improve their dismal station instead enables this guy to retire at 55!! laughing all the way to his swollen bank account.

What are the options here? I want my membership subscriptions back. I joined a union, not George McNeice's private slush fund. Can I take legal action over misrepresentation ? I have looked at the IMO's accounts. I assume his obscene [ i dont even know if there is word for it, some combination of insanity, bloated , horrific, disgusting, graft, artifice, chicanery , swindle, racket and renumeration ] is hidden in the salary section. The IMO markets itself as a union. This is clear misrepresentation of a service. Could I get my money back under the sale of goods and supply of services act ?

PS I know that more was appropriated from GP's and consultants too. Sorry for leaving you out of my rant.

RobFowl · 21-12-2012 4:47pm

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

PS I know that more was appropriated from GP's and consultants too. Sorry for leaving you out of my rant.

No worries , well capable of ranting ourselves :rolleyes:

5 Doctors where I work and the combined salaries fall well short of the esteemed George McNiece .

ThatDrGuy · 21-12-2012 4:58pm

RobFowl wrote: »

No worries , well capable of ranting ourselves :rolleyes:

5 Doctors where I work and the combined salaries fall well short of the esteemed George McNiece .

Dont feel bad. This year George McNiece will take home 1,992,355 euro. As head of the worst union in the country (by a mile) he is earning more than the Presidents of the USA, Germany, France , Australia, Uk , Japan , Russia , Canada and Isreal combined. But he's worth it....

Vorsprung · 21-12-2012 5:31pm

Damage control email sent!

Dear colleague

As President of the Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) I wish to respond to media reports regarding the resignation of the CEO of the organisation, Mr. George McNeice.

The circumstances of Mr. McNeice’s resignation as CEO are extremely controversial and will cause great distress to members of the IMO as they have to myself and my colleagues on the Management Committee of the organisation; not least given the financial difficulties so many of our members are facing.

Mr McNeice acted within his rights given his contractual entitlements. However his contract was negotiated many years ago and in a form which left the organisation very exposed to changing economic circumstances and changes in legislation particularly in respect of pension provision and salary increases. I share the anger which I have no doubt all members will feel in relation to this matter.

The facts are as follows:

The Chief Executive initiated discussions with the organisation some time ago about the provisions for his retirement. In response the organisation undertook a comprehensive review of the matter including detailing any and all liabilities of the organisation on foot of the CEO’s contractual entitlements and all options available to us in this matter.

The IMO sought and received advice from various independent parties including actuarial advice, taxation advice and legal advice from two independent Senior Counsel. That legal advice clearly stated that the organisation could not expect to win any legal challenge to the contractual entitlements held by the CEO.

As a result of this legal advice, the IMO had no option but to initiate talks with the CEO in order to secure a settlement of the matter. Our overriding priority has been to ensure that the organisation retained sufficient financial resources to enable it to represent the interests of our members and to support those members in respect of their work in the Irish health services.

Through this process extensive efforts were made to achieve a resolution at a lower cost to the organisation. However these were unsuccessful.

Intensive negotiations with representatives of Mr McNeice then took place over recent weeks and concluded with a legally binding agreement between the two sides which was signed this week. This agreement secured the resignation of Mr McNeice as CEO of the IMO and of all other offices which he held in his role as CEO of IMO. Mr McNeice has no active management role in the organisation since yesterday.

Because of the legal sensitivities surrounding this matter, I am sure people will appreciate that we unable to consult fully with members. However we did organise a full briefing on this matter while the process was in train for Trustees, member of the Management Committee and other relevant members of the organisation on Monday night last. That briefing included contributions from two independent barristers (Senior Counsel) who were retained to advise the Management Committee on this matter.

Following that briefing, the Management Committee (which has responsibility for this area under the rules of the organisation) met formally and unanimously agreed that the proposed settlement represented the only option for the organisation to take given the liability it faced. Everyone at that meeting was appalled at the circumstances in which we found ourselves but acted in the best interests of the organisation given that there were no other options available to us.

In that settlement agreement, the Management Committee secured a reduction of approximately 50% of the organisation’s legal liability to Mr. McNeice arising from his contractual entitlements.

It has been established on the basis of independent taxation and actuarial advice that Mr McNeice had contractual entitlements to pension and other provisions of circa €20 million.

The settlement negotiated by the IMO reduced the cost of the settlement to approximately €9.7 million –including a pension fund of approximately €4.5 million, a contractual termination payment of €1.5 million and delayed pension payments of €3.75 million (representing a cost of €2.6 million at today’s values).

Membership subscriptions in the future are protected and will not be required or used to finance this settlement given that the IMO has made full provision for these payments from its current resources.

That settlement also required the organisation to issue an agreed statement yesterday to announce Mr McNeice’s retirement.

Despite this settlement, the IMO remains in a very strong financial position and has the resources it requires to continue to represent members and develop policy as currently. This settlement is being fully provided for in our financial accounts and all relevant details will be disclosed in full in the next set of accounts.

I have put in place interim management arrangements involving a sub-committee of the Management Committee to oversee the day-to-day management of the organisation over the coming months.

The sub-committee is made up as follows:

Dr. Paul McKeown President

Professor Sean Tierney Treasurer

Dr. Matt Sadlier Incoming President

Dr. Ray Walley Chair GP Committee

Mr. Niall Saul Acting Executive

Prior to this episode, I had initiated a comprehensive review of Governance Procedures at the IMO. I have now extended the Terms of Reference of that review to include specifically a review of all processes, practices and procedures around the issue of Remuneration to ensure that nothing like this can ever happen again and that there is clear transparency and full risk assessment in respect of key contracts in the future.

I am convening a special meeting of members on Saturday 12th January next. Further details will issue in due course.

Yours Sincerely

Dr. Paul McKeown

President

ThatDrGuy · 21-12-2012 5:49pm

Thanks Vorsprung. So for the last year when its members have been royally shafted by the HSE, what was the IMO doing? It was hiring barristers to see how many millions of its member's money should be given to its CEO. I used to think the IMO was useless but harmless. I didnt even begin to fathom how god damn useless they were. These are the people negotiating on your behalf. This is the only organisation you are legally allowed to join to represent your basic working rights. This shower. I need to go lie down.

RobFowl · 21-12-2012 5:59pm

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

Thanks Vorsprung. So for the last year when its members have been royally shafted by the HSE, what was the IMO doing? It was hiring barristers to see how many millions of its member's money should be given to its CEO. I used to think the IMO was useless but harmless. I didnt even begin to fathom how god damn useless they were. These are the people negotiating on your behalf. This is the only organisation you are legally allowed to join to represent your basic working rights. This shower. I need to go lie down.

Thanks for that Vorsprun and agree ThatDrGuy

Have just canceled by IMO membership.
If thats how good they are at negotiating things entirely with in their control, then God help us with them negotiating with the HSE....

Vorsprung · 21-12-2012 6:09pm

Entitlements (I love it when that word pops up!) of upto 20 million.

The IMO's income in 2011 was 3.9 million (just had a look at the annual report for the year).

The mind boggles. I too will be cancelling my membership.

bleg · 21-12-2012 6:53pm

The mind boggles. Really feel sorry for you guys. What an absolute waste of money.

Ryder · 21-12-2012 7:30pm

RobFowl wrote: »

Thanks for that Vorsprun and agree ThatDrGuy

Have just canceled by IMO membership.
If thats how good they are at negotiating things entirely with in their control, then God help us with them negotiating with the HSE....

......or that McNeice is a phenomenol negotiator and should be kept on....JOKE. If I wasnt 'overseas' I would be cancelling too...instead I will be asking the to desist from any more communication with me.

I joined as an intern 12 years ago....a sponsored night out. Didnt renew it after my SHO years because it was all about financial planning, credit cards etc. Rejoined for 2 years when the whole strike issue was being mentioned, but never again. Its a real problem for doctors now. At best, we have incompetent representation. Minimal training aids (in the face of increasing burden of competence assurance), exploitation, non-payment....and worst of all unchallenged negative profiling in the media.

I think the IMOs fault lies with its members, all of us. Too passive. It sees itself as a health lobby group, with its budget submissions, public health announcements etc, to elevate itself above a mere union. But that is what we need, and evidently dont have.

take everything · 21-12-2012 7:37pm

I got onto the IMO industrial relations section recently about (what seems to me) the illegal non-payment of living-out allowance.
Granted i'm not a member, but i still wanted to know what the mechanisms for the mysterious non-payment of this were, especially since it is explicitly there in the contract i signed (the 2010 one, which, if i'm not mistaken hasn't changed).

I simply asked the guy there how this came about assuming he would have been involved in any negotiations about it and therefore well placed to provide the information that i needed.
No matter how much i asked politely, he couldn't point me to any provision etc that contradicted/overruled the 2010 contract that i signed.

I asked him about information on the relevant date it disappeared (Feb 01: this year. Supposedly if you weren't working in the HSE on that exact date you don't get it). He couldn't provide me with anything.

I pointed out to him that i signed the 2010 contract (that includes the allowance). He couldn't reconcile it.

He was desperate to get me off the phone, eventually cited the get-out clause ("you're not a member") and eventually hung up when the questions got difficult.

I wasn't asking for anything- only for someone to point me in the direction of when this allowance was dropped.
I don't believe it has.
I still believe it's illegal because he couldn't give me this simple piece of information.

I've ranted about this lately but this seems as good a thread as any to point it out again.

Had to laugh at this in the imt after i did a bit of googling on this where the IMO themselves admit it would be a breach of contract (second-last paragraph).
http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/07/gp-regs-face-20-pay-cut.html
It's unbelievable, especially in light of this guy's pay-off.

resus · 21-12-2012 8:31pm

IMO members need to all take that one bold step that will ultimately improve Irish Medicine, and patient care.... resign

ThatDrGuy · 22-12-2012 12:29am

Oh God. It gets worse.

http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=imos_future_in_jeopardy_following_multi_million_euro_pay_out_to_outgoing_ceo

The IMO has such utter contempt for its membership it thinks it can turn over the entire net worth of the organisation to fund a retirement slush fund for its CEO. The management of the IMO colluded to make this happen. It now thinks a few spin doctored emails can smooth things over and then business as usual. Words fail me. I thought I had seen it all in this country. Wow.

Oh and resign. Of course. But that lets this guy walk away with every cent you ever gave the IMO. Everything. This is the plan the leadership have decided on. Imagine the skeletons in the closet they are trying to cover up if Plan A is to give this guy 10 million euro.

take everything · 22-12-2012 12:52am

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

Oh God. It gets worse.

http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=imos_future_in_jeopardy_following_multi_million_euro_pay_out_to_outgoing_ceo

. The IMO has such utter contempt for its membership it thinks it can turn over the entire net worth of the organisation to fund a retirement slush fund for its CEO. The management of the IMO colluded to make this happen. It now thinks a few spin doctored emails can smooth things over and then business as usual. Words fail me. I thought I had seen it all in this country. Wow.

Oh and resign. Of course. But that lets this guy walk away with every cent you ever gave the IMO. Everything. This is the plan the leadership have decided on. Imagine the skeletons in the closet they are trying to cover up if Plan A is to give this guy 10 million euro.

Just reading that again there.
20 million, 10 million...
That's up there with Fingleton et al.

Meanwhile the 50 hours odd overtime i did in the last couple of weeks are taxed to **** at something like over 60% (after all the USC/PDP crap).
I know this is a general thing across the board but then losing stuff like the living out allowance (because the IMO couldn't be arsed defending it) on top of this again makes me feel i'm earning nothing.
Call is not worth doing.

While this guy retires on Euromillions money.

IMO chief exec lump sum

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