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Unknown metal object

  • 11-10-2012 1:26pm
    #1
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭


    I found this metal object http://www.flickr.com/photos/79837529@N08/sets/72157631744479109/ in a river a few days ago and I have no idea what it is.

    It does not attract a magnet. It seems to have had bronze paint or plating at some stage. It's an unusual shape with the very small diameter base.

    Anyone have any ideas?


«13

Comments

  • #2
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Looks like a dagger hilt, or some housing (uneducated guess).

    Edit: Actually, now that I look again, it's almost certainly not a dagger hilt. :(


  • #3
    katarin
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭katarin


    Is it a horse bit or a bridge piece?


  • #4
    Simon.d
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭Simon.d


    candilabre? Base could have fallen off..?

    http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8047/8076749108_1b5dc35bd3.jpg

    The rim shown in this image would suggest to me that it potentially sat into a base of some sort...


  • #5
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Looks like a brass vase to me.
    Would an antique dealer tell you what it is, and what it's made of, I wonder?


  • #6
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    slowburner wrote: »
    Looks like a brass vase to me.
    Would an antique dealer tell you what it is, and what it's made of, I wonder?

    Goods idea, might take it out to Mealys in Castlecomer, not too far from me.


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  • #7
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    Just an update on this metal jug. The pictures have been looked at by an expert from the Discovery Programme and it seems this is very possibly Iron Age in date and made of bronze. Obviously this needs to be confirmed with a physical inspection of the jug, but still, exciting stuff!


  • #8
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Did the expert say what it might be?

    If it is Iron Age, it is truly remarkable that it has survived in such condition, in a river, for upwards of one and a half thousand years.


  • #9
    Condatis
    Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭Condatis


    slowburner wrote: »
    Did the expert say what it might be?

    If it is Iron Age, it is truly remarkable that it has survived in such condition, in a river, for upwards of one and a half thousand years.

    It might not have been in the river very long. It may have carried away from some other other place after being uncovered by rainfall or a minor landslide.

    Or it could have been dug up during some kind of works and dumped by somebody who had no interest in it.


  • #10
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    It's so decorative that it's difficult to imagine it's function. Amazing find if it's Iron Age.

    Looks very Art Nouveau!


  • #11
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    This ewer might help to visualise what Pueblo's find might have looked like in its original condition.
    231938.jpg

    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/55.121.1


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  • #12
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    slowburner wrote: »
    Did the expert say what it might be?

    If it is Iron Age, it is truly remarkable that it has survived in such condition, in a river, for upwards of one and a half thousand years.


    The expert didn't say anything much about what it is except that it looks like it may have a mix of influences, among them Hellenic/Roman amphora.

    She mentioned that the handle terminals looked to possibly be zoomorphic and mentioned parallels with the Keshcarrigan handle.

    I am hoping to get the jug properly assessed.

    I too was amazed that it could have survived that long in a riverine environment but as mentioned by Condatis maybe it was buried somewhere and only recently entered the river?

    Being bronze means no rust as I understand it.


  • #13
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    It reminds me of a little antique egyptian make up container that my grandfather had. It had a lid with a stick on the internal side to apply the make up.

    Isn't that the case that most containers of that shape were recipients for ointments, or thick liquids ? It's interesting that it has no lip for pouring, and what's the little hole, is there a mark on the other side too ?
    If there is no base, does it mean there was a holder, like the wall torches ones, or that it could safely be laid horizontal ?

    Just my 2 very uneducated cents :).


  • #14
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    It reminds me of a little antique egyptian make up container that my grandfather had. It had a lid with a stick on the internal side to apply the make up.

    Isn't that the case that most containers of that shape were recipients for ointments, or thick liquids ? It's interesting that it has no lip for pouring, and what's the little hole, is there a mark on the other side too ?
    If there is no base, does it mean there was a holder, like the wall torches ones, or that it could safely be laid horizontal ?

    Just my 2 very uneducated cents :).

    Ok, my uneducated 2 cents...I thought, like you that it looks to be very possibly modern. I agree the little hole is puzzling...could have occourred post deposition?

    The Discovery Programme contact seemed to be fairly sure from the pictures but I am sure her opinion was pending a physical inspection. It may well turn out to be Edwardian!

    Hopefully getting it assessed properly by this person soon.


  • #15
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    pueblo wrote: »

    Ok, my uneducated 2 cents...I thought, like you that it looks to be very possibly modern. I agree the little hole is puzzling...could have occourred post deposition?

    I showed it to an archaeologist friend of mine today and he is not committing either way at the moment though he did emphasise that there is a strong link between the Nore valley and Roman activity (trade/access from sea/silver mines in Kilkenny/local rulers etc) Would this explain the amphora shape of the vessel?.

    Freestone Hill (roman coins/artefacts found) in County Kilkenny is a huge bronze and iron age hillfort with a large cairn. This site is not too far away from where I found the vessel.

    The Discovery Programme contact seemed to be fairly sure from the pictures but I am sure her opinion was pending a physical inspection. It may well turn out to be Edwardian!

    Hopefully getting it assessed properly by this person soon.
    If it turned out to be Bronze Age, that would be outstanding.
    If it's contemporary with the Keshcarrigan bowl, I would tremble with excitement at the possible Roman connection.;)

    The hole or aperture is curious.
    If it was deliberately bored, you might expect it to be centred between the handles.
    Is there a similar hole on the opposite side of the vessel?

    There may have been contact with other metals too. There seems to be a ring of some form of oxide above the main joint, about half way up the body of the vessel. This oxide can form as an electrolytic reaction between two different metals in contact. A similar oxide may have formed where the handles join the body and rim, and at the underside of the base.
    It looks as if the body of the vessel might possibly have been made in three sections. The absence of oxide would indicate that these joints were cast, rather than brazed. On the other hand, these might have been decorative grooves cut into the body after casting, perhaps on a lathe, like the Keshcarrigan bowl.


  • #16
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    slowburner wrote: »
    The hole or aperture is curious.
    If it was deliberately bored, you might expect it to be centred between the handles.
    Is there a similar hole on the opposite side of the vessel?

    No hole on the other side.

    Could it be an impurity or weak spot in the metal that hollowed out over time as it corroded faster than the rest of the body?

    There are other sort of pock marks on the body, I have circled a few below.

    jug%20holes.jpg


  • #17
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    No joke here, but there are some Intra-uterine devices (IUDs or coils) which look quite like your object.

    Could it be an early model IUD?


  • #18
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    No joke here, but there are some Intra-uterine devices (IUDs or coils) which look quite like your object.

    Could it be an early model IUD?


    Ha I hope that if it's not Iron Age its an early prototype IUD! :)


  • #19
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    No joke here, but there are some Intra-uterine devices (IUDs or coils) which look quite like your object.

    Could it be an early model IUD?

    It looks more like an unintentional approximation of the female human reproductive system.

    iud-e1339781453493.jpg


  • #20
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    No joke here, but there are some Intra-uterine devices (IUDs or coils) which look quite like your object.

    Could it be an early model IUD?
    The Mustard wrote: »
    It looks more like an unintentional approximation of the female human reproductive system.

    iud-e1339781453493.jpg
    These are certainly novel suggestions.

    If the former suggestion was true, then I suspect IUD would stand for intense user discomfort - and that's just for her - for him doesn't bear thinking about :eek:


  • #21
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    slowburner wrote: »
    These are certainly novel suggestions.

    If the former suggestion was true, then I suspect IUD would stand for intense user discomfort - and that's just for her - for him doesn't bear thinking about :eek:

    Not a lot of point in a man attempting to use an IUD.

    And the appearance of the unidentified metal object suggests to me that it wasn't designed to be carried internally.

    I'd say Boulevardier probably doesn't meet too many ladies. wink.png


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  • #22
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Not a lot of point in a man attempting to use an IUD.
    Not a lot of point in a woman using one if there's no man involved.
    And the appearance of the unidentified metal object suggest to me that it wasn't designed to be carried internally.
    Then it's no longer an 'I' or 'U' device - it's just a device, with a mysterious purpose...and we're back to square one.
    I'd say Boulevardier probably doesn't meet too many ladies. wink.png
    I couldn't possibly comment.


  • #23
    dr gonzo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭dr gonzo


    pueblo wrote: »
    Ha I hope that if it's not Iron Age its an early prototype IUD! :)

    I hope that its both! That'd be one for Archaeology Ireland! :D


  • #24
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    As a lady I think I can safely say that, if anything, it does look a bit like a rough sketch of the female reproductive system, but that there is no hope in hell it's an IUD.
    I think that's pretty safe to say :). Glad I could help for once, I am more of an expert on that one. ;)


  • #25
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I will ignore the untrue comment about me and the ladies.

    I have been trying to find pictures of IUDs from the 1960s and 1970s, which looked very different from today's, but I have not found a good one.

    In any case, I suppose it could be an unguent bottle, but I can't find others quite like it on Google.


  • #26
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Well it's interesting anyway, and Boulevardier, a bit of thinking outside the box is nice too, rather than just sticking to the "vessel" thing.
    Could the blunt elongated base have had a purpose too, as in, if something grainy was kept in the vessel, then the base could have been used as a mortar for said substance ?

    I tried a few google image searches for bronze age vessels and nothing comes up with the same shape, except for pottery ones.


  • #27
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    I tried a few google image searches for bronze age vessels and nothing comes up with the same shape, except for pottery ones.

    Just to clarify the expert mentioned Iron Age to me as a possible time period for the em....vessel, not Bronze age.

    The 'amphora' shape would imply to me that it possibly sat in it's own holder like this example

    il_fullxfull.375554515_ektp.jpg


  • #28
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    Ok..A couple of wild speculative theories but who knows...

    It could be a Roman/Hellenistic influenced amphoriskos/unguentarium like these

    Roman%20Amphora-rhyton.JPG

    Roman%20Bronze%20Amphora.jpg

    These being used to hold precious perfume or balms or whatever would have needed a stopper. Would the hole in the piece i found be where a chain with stopper was attached like this?

    Roman-Bronze-Twin-Handled-Amphoriskos.png

    The other possibilty for the hole is that there was some piece of ornamentation/sculpture attached to piece via the hole, which subsequently became seperated.

    Perhaps some Greek influence like this bronze Greek twin handled vase?

    Greek%20handled%20Vase.jpg

    and then again maybe it is an iud :P

    Still awaiting expert opinion.


  • #29
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    It's fun to speculate when there is absolutely no harm in it :D.

    Could the holes be "scars" from the mould used to shape up the body ? There are little holes like that in moulds aren't there ?

    I thought of that thing with the lid being attached to the bottle too. If it was a valuable enough substance liable to dry or spill, it would have made sense to attach lid.

    Another silly, uneducated wild guess (coming from me) : could a hole/holes have been needed to help stir/scrape the contents in the very narrow bottom part when bottle was nearly empty ? Could the stick going in there have been a spoon, for medicine for example ? https://www.coincraft.com/images/thumbs/0001257_400.gif

    or a stirring rod ? http://www.brightonarch.org.uk/photo/flint60-02.jpg

    These perfume bottles that have a familiar kink half way through the body. http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/publications/online_research_catalogues/ancient_cyprus_british_museum/catalogue_image.aspx?objectId=415740&partId=1&asset_id=337823&retpage=32175&catparentPageId=30324

    edit : figure 42 in this document is a roman make up spatula. http://www.augustaraurica.ch/publ/pdf/ABRZ03_frz_k.pdf


  • #30
    pueblo
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭pueblo


    Just another update. The piece is going for an XRF scan to determine the composition of metals, this should help with dating the piece.

    On the mysterious hole, I now think it is actually a 'Sprue Hole' which is a hole left over from the casting process.


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  • #31
    ZX7R
    Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭ZX7R


    Could it be an urn for holding oil for a catholic baptism saw something like it on time team one.
    just an idea:o


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