Protest against cuts and Government greed.

Tzar Chasm · 05-05-2012 5:34pm

But surely you acknowledge that 'socialism' and 'communisim' are entirely different concepts, surely the nordic states are amongst the closest to the ideal of socialisim

Monty Burnz · 05-05-2012 7:08pm

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

But surely you acknowledge that 'socialism' and 'communisim' are entirely different concepts, surely the nordic states are amongst the closest to the ideal of socialisim

It's a debate I've had before with socialists - and I'm a bit wary about taking this thread way O/T.

But this is how the argument goes: every person I've debated socialism with on Boards says - when confronted with all of the failed attempts at socialism, which brought terrible human misery - "well, that wasn't really socialism, it was communism" or "it was state capitalism" or "it was Maoism" or "it was Stalinism" or whatever.

The gist is that their version of "true socialism" has never been tried anywhere. I'd dispute that, but even if I accepted it, there are two possibilities as I see it:

1. The idealist's version of socialism (and I presume everyone in history driving socialist revolutions were idealists) morphs into a dystopian nightmare in the implementation EVERY TIME it's been tried

or

2. The idealist's version of socialism could in theory exist, but you can never get to it because EVERY TIME it's been tried it got sidetracked into a dystopian nightmare.

Either way, it doesn't inspire me to think that the next country to go down that road will do so successfully.

The Nordic countries are capitalist democracies, with good social provisions. If you showed Karl Marx Sweden and told him it was a socialist state, he'd have a conniption. Sorry to side-track the thread, I've gone from trying to point out some balancing facts to spouting philosophy.

Sully · 05-05-2012 8:24pm

FRIENDO wrote: »

The last government agreed that the State should pay €31bn to IBRC (formerly Anglo and Irish Nationwide) over a 13-year schedule ending in 2025. The first payment of €3.1bn was made in March 2011. The next payment was due on March 31 2012.

FG and LAB also handed over 1.5 billion of Irish tax payers money a couple of weeks ago to AIB unamed, ansecured and unguranteed bond holders.

Just to clarify that payment in March 2012 was not paid. The government struck a deal to see the payment deferred. This is why the government "bailed out" the bondholders - to deal with a bigger payment for the Anglo promissory notes. The deal is far from complete, and who knows what will happen going forward on the payments, but for now its not being paid.

Monty Burnz · 05-05-2012 8:32pm

Sully wrote: »

Just to clarify that payment in March 2012 was not paid. The government struck a deal to see the payment deferred. This is why the government "bailed out" the bondholders - to deal with a bigger payment for the Anglo promissory notes. The deal is far from complete, and who knows what will happen going forward on the payments, but for now its not being paid.

The ECB are very insistent that the promissory notes are repaid. If we decide not to repay them, we would be wise to be prepared to balance the budget overnight. Then we'd see proper austerity, not the cushy version we've been served so far...

Sully · 05-05-2012 8:33pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The ECB are very insistent that the promissory notes are repaid. If we decide not to repay them, we would be wise to be prepared to balance the budget overnight. Then we'd see proper austerity, not the cushy version we've been served so far...

The ECB didn't like the idea of a deferred payment either. We just have to hope.

FRIENDO · 05-05-2012 10:18pm

Sully wrote: »

Just to clarify that payment in March 2012 was not paid. The government struck a deal to see the payment deferred. This is why the government "bailed out" the bondholders - to deal with a bigger payment for the Anglo promissory notes. The deal is far from complete, and who knows what will happen going forward on the payments, but for now its not being paid.

Are you talking about the promissory notes plan ?

The Government's promissory notes plan will cost the state an extra €90 million this year because of Bank of Ireland's involvement in refinancing the sovereign bond.
There should have been a writedown of this unjust debt, instead they kick the can down the road.
Austerity continues for the people and now there is added millions this year to cater for.

Monty Burnz · 05-05-2012 10:22pm

FRIENDO wrote: »

There should have been a writedown of this unjust debt, instead they kick the can down the road.

Our government can't organise a writedown - that has to come from the ECB. All we can do is default, and as I said, were that to happen you would see real austerity. IF you think this is 'austerity', you have another thing coming to you. I used to live in Argentina a few years after they defaulted. I've seen austerity.

golden lane · 05-05-2012 10:24pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The ECB are very insistent that the promissory notes are repaid. If we decide not to repay them, we would be wise to be prepared to balance the budget overnight. Then we'd see proper austerity, not the cushy version we've been served so far...

cushy......bordering on utopian............

bmaxi · 06-05-2012 10:55am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Again, tell anyone who survived socialism about how hard life in 2012 Ireland is and give them the biggest laugh they've had in years.

That's not in dispute, what's in dispute is whether the system of government they lived under could be termed socialism.

FRIENDO · 06-05-2012 4:20pm

Front page of todays Irish Mail on Sunday

"Government Chief Whip Paul Kehoe failed to declare rental income from a house he bought from Cabinet colleague Phil Hogan.
But junior minister Mr Kehoe retrospectively changed his Dáil Register of Interests to include the Dublin 4 house – days after this newspaper challenged him about the omission.
When the Irish Mail on Sunday quizzed him on April 14, he claimed he was not required to declare the property to the Dáil as it was his residence – even though, in fact, he has been renting out the house since last summer."

"Failure to disclose an interest is an offence that can attract a maximum penalty of three years in jail or a €25,000 fine"

Sorry I did not post link to paper as I did not no if it was allowed.

Monty Burnz · 06-05-2012 5:53pm

FRIENDO wrote: »

Front page of todays Irish Mail on Sunday

"Government Chief Whip Paul Kehoe failed to declare rental income from a house he bought from Cabinet colleague Phil Hogan.
But junior minister Mr Kehoe retrospectively changed his Dáil Register of Interests to include the Dublin 4 house – days after this newspaper challenged him about the omission.
When the Irish Mail on Sunday quizzed him on April 14, he claimed he was not required to declare the property to the Dáil as it was his residence – even though, in fact, he has been renting out the house since last summer."

"Failure to disclose an interest is an offence that can attract a maximum penalty of three years in jail or a €25,000 fine"

Sorry I did not post link to paper as I did not no if it was allowed.

I hope something is done about this. The government must be seen to be squeaky clean - I'm sure people are more than sick and tired of FF style corruption.

washman3 · 06-05-2012 6:01pm

And these again are the same guys that are telling us that if we do exactly as the troika tell us,this country will once again be a great place to live. Sure it will, for them and their cronies.:mad:

Monty Burnz · 06-05-2012 6:51pm

washman3 wrote: »

And these again are the same guys that are telling us that if we do exactly as the troika tell us,this country will once again

The bubble days are never coming back (thank god) and people need to get used to the idea.

washman3 · 06-05-2012 6:56pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The bubble days are never coming back (thank god) and people need to get used to the idea.

Agree with you for a change!!:)
But these guys will try to bring it back,but only for themselves and their cronies to milk the Gravy Train.

Monty Burnz · 06-05-2012 6:58pm

washman3 wrote: »

But these guys will try to bring it back,but only for themselves and their cronies to milk the Gravy Train.

Well it's up to us to make sure that doesn't happen.

washman3 · 06-05-2012 7:45pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well it's up to us to make sure that doesn't happen.

Any ideas??
will we vote for a party in the next election that promises the sun,moon and stars,only to discover when they get into power that they continue with identical policies to their predecessors??

Monty Burnz · 06-05-2012 7:58pm

washman3 wrote: »

Any ideas??
will we vote for a party in the next election that promises the sun,moon and stars,only to discover when they get into power that they continue with identical policies to their predecessors??

Pester your local representative about this and any other corruption. Make calls, picket, protest. Make corruption a dirty word. And campaign for real punishment for TDs who are proved corrupt - I'd march beside you for that one.

Tzar Chasm · 06-05-2012 8:27pm

Calls pickets and protests haven't really made an impact on them tho

The politicians need to go, a clean sweep banishing all those currently sitting and a destruction of the undemocratic notion of parties as they stand

Failing that a few lynchings might get their attention

yobr · 07-05-2012 9:41am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Pester your local representative about this and any other corruption. Make calls, picket, protest. Make corruption a dirty word. And campaign for real punishment for TDs who are proved corrupt - I'd march beside you for that one.

I agree with you but its very hard to do that when you the likes of Michael Lowry get reelected when he has been mauled by two Tribunal reports.

FRIENDO · 07-05-2012 10:03am

Hi guys and girls, just a reminder Public meeting tonight at 7.30pm, Loch Garman Arms Hotel, Gorey.
Main speaker will be TD Mick Wallace.

All welcome

http://nohouseholdtax.org/category/news/

Monty Burnz · 07-05-2012 10:09am

yobr wrote: »

I agree with you but its very hard to do that when you the likes of Michael Lowry get reelected when he has been mauled by two Tribunal reports.

And who is to blame for that crook being in the Dáil? The voters in his constituency. :mad:

Monty Burnz · 07-05-2012 10:11am

FRIENDO wrote: »

Hi guys and girls, just a reminder Public meeting tonight at 7.30pm, Loch Garman Arms Hotel, Gorey.
Main speaker will be TD Mick Wallace.

All welcome

http://nohouseholdtax.org/category/news/

You might want to ask Mick Wallace if he's going to pay back his debts, or is he going to dump tens of millions of it onto you guys.

FRIENDO · 07-05-2012 10:18am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And who is to blame for that crook being in the Dáil? The voters in his constituency. :mad:

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." (George Bernard Shaw)

FRIENDO · 07-05-2012 10:20am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You might want to ask Mick Wallace if he's going to pay back his debts, or is he going to dump tens of millions of it onto you guys.

Your very welcome to come along yourself and ask the question, its a public meeting.

Monty Burnz · 07-05-2012 10:28am

FRIENDO wrote: »

Your very welcome to come along yourself and ask the question, its a public meeting.

Thanks for the invite

- I'd consider it but I'm out of the country. The idea of a guy like Wallace* - whose debts to the banks are the exact reason why the banks had to be bailed out with our money - rallying people against paying their taxes...I don't know, you couldn't make it up.

*who I'm not saying is evil or anything, but...

07-05-2012 10:39am

How does one protest against cuts (which we simply can't pay for) and also at the same time against 'greed'?

And Mick Wallace is going to speak at it. Hilarious.

That said, I wouldn't expect many people attending to know much about Mick Wallace, or much about anyone else outside of their immediate situation - except for the fact that they're all GREEDY, unlike the person themselves, of course.

FRIENDO · 07-05-2012 10:55am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Thanks for the invite - I'd consider it but I'm out of the country. The idea of a guy like Wallace* - whose debts to the banks are the exact reason why the banks had to be bailed out with our money - rallying people against paying their taxes...I don't know, you couldn't make it up.

*who I'm not saying is evil or anything, but...

Its a pity a good person like yourself is out of the country.
Being honest I dont know to much about Wallace in relation to asking such a question.
However in relation to corruption in this state I do believe people will air there voices.
Its a public meeting, many of the people at the meeting tonight may not have voted for Wallace or may never will.
This public meeting is about the people, it is not about parties or Independents.

However I believe it is natural and right for people to remember the parties and TDs who genuinely support and stand by the people now in these difficulty times.

In relation to "rallying people against paying their taxes", I made my own decision as I believe and know this tax is unfair and unjust.

United we the people will stand.

07-05-2012 11:02am

FRIENDO wrote: »

Its a pity a good person like yourself is out of the country.
Being honest I dont know to much about Wallace in relation to asking such a question.
However in relation to corruption in this state I do believe people will air there voices.
Its a public meeting, many of the people at the meeting tonight may not have voted for Wallace or may never will.
This public meeting is about the people, it is not about parties or Independents.

However I believe it is natural and right for people to remember the parties and TDs who genuinely support and stand by the people now in these difficulty times.

In relation to "rallying people against paying their taxes", I made my own decision as I believe and know this tax is unfair and unjust.

United we the people will stand.

An awful lot of words used to say very little.

How can one know much of the corruption in this country when they know nothing of a local and nationally infamous TD? What qualification do you have to point and say, "These guys care about the people and those guys don't" when you don't even know their backgrounds or records?

It's simply impossible to ascertain a valid opinion from such patchy information.

bmaxi · 07-05-2012 11:14am

Certainly Wallace has questions to answer but in his defence you'd have to say while his actions were reckless and he should be made to pay for them, they were not underhand and illegal.
If what is said in the Mail on Sunday is true then Kehoe is not fit to hold public office, his actions were deliberately designed to defraud the Irish taxpayer and should be the subject of a Garda investigation. This is the guy remember, whose job it is to ensure all FG TDs toe the line, talk about leading by example.

FRIENDO · 07-05-2012 11:42am

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

An awful lot of words used to say very little.

How can one know much of the corruption in this country when they know nothing of a local and nationally infamous TD? What qualification do you have to point and say, "These guys care about the people and those guys don't" when you don't even know their backgrounds or records?

It's simply impossible to ascertain a valid opinion from such patchy information.

"What qualification do you have to point and say"

To answer your question,
I am a citizen of Ireland, a husband, a Father, a single income earning family who is struggling to stay afloate.

Protest against cuts and Government greed.

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