ESAT BT threaten to quit residential market

vinnyfitz · 13-11-2003 8:02pm #1

On RTE and also reported by ENN - unless ComReg get their act together.

crawler · 13-11-2003 11:07pm

I am not EsatBT's No.1 fan but their decision is more than justified.

Maintianing a profit margin is extremely difficult with margin squeeze on top of "win back" tactics - in fact many ressise CPS customers actually COST a telco money.

You also have to remember that EsatBT MUST turn cash flow positive by March of Next year or BT may take things further...focusing on high margin business in the Corporate sector will help this...

NTL left the ressie market for CPS last year also until things changed....again, the right decision.

dahamsta · 14-11-2003 10:26am

Don't hurry back Bill.

eth0_ · 14-11-2003 10:29am

I can see where they're coming from, if they don't turn over 500k per day consistenly, BT will sell the company on, that's what they're like.
A threat like this might be a kick up the bum for comreg too.

nahdoic · 14-11-2003 10:41am

The more pressure that is put on comreg to sort themselves out the better.

dahamsta · 14-11-2003 11:22am

Originally posted by nahdoic
The more pressure that is put on comreg to sort themselves out the better.

Don't hurry back Etain.

nahdoic · 14-11-2003 11:27am

Originally posted by dahamsta
Don't hurry back Etain.

Etain please stay away forever.

DonegalMan · 14-11-2003 11:32am

Originally posted by dahamsta
Don't hurry back Bill.

You think ESAT pulling out of the residential market would be a good thing, Adam?

Like you, I have been extremely critical of various aspects of their operations, but they are the only serious nationwide competitor for Eircom; I think that any reduction in their presence would only serve to help Eircom screw the Irish people even further.

Martin Harran

crawler · 14-11-2003 11:39am

A telco "leaving" a market is a bad thing for Consumers in the short term - but in this case it may have a long term benefit.

Short term pain for long term gain.

Would anyone run a business to lose money?

nahdoic · 14-11-2003 11:40am

Originally posted by DonegalMan
Like you, I have been extremely critical of various aspects of their operations, but they are the only serious nationwide competitor for Eircom; I think that any reduction in their presence would only serve to help Eircom screw the Irish people even further.

... slowly trying to sidestep any personal issues.

If Esat did pull out of the residential market it would create huge political shockwaves. There would have to be major government funded reports (dare I say tribunal?) into why Esat were not able to compete and who messed up big time.

But more than anything else it would get media attention like crazy.

It would give Mary O'Rourke and Etain Doyle a crowning achievement they both could share and so richly deserve. It could really knock into the fastlane changes in irish telecommunications.

crawler · 14-11-2003 12:00pm

Nahdoic - Do you work for a Telco????? Cant have that in here!!!

Cabaal · 14-11-2003 12:03pm

I can fully understand why Esat BT are saying this, it makes financial sense in the end for themselfs, Hopefully this will get comreg to get there bloody act together and sort this joke of a situation out!

dahamsta · 14-11-2003 12:13pm

Originally posted by DonegalMan
You think ESAT pulling out of the residential market would be a good thing, Adam?

Yip.

Like you, I have been extremely critical of various aspects of their operations

And rightly so. How many years later is it and billing still isn't fixed? If Bill Murphy was running my company I'd kick his ass.

but they are the only serious nationwide competitor for Eircom

Not as residential level they ain't. UTV's growth figures for subscriber numbers will be trouncing Esat at the minute, and because they've made CPS mandatory, growth in the telephony side will be enormous too. The actual subscriber figures mightn't beat Esat right now, but UTV is a hungry company, they'll fight for top spot. (Aside to UTV: If you want to keep the community on your side, beef up CS. Do it now before it's too late.)

I think that any reduction in their presence would only serve to help Eircom screw the Irish people even further.

I accept the suggestion that if Esat pulls out, we'll be back to (effectively) a two-player market, but there isn't a hope of it staying like that. There will be a lot of very serious people with very serious money watching UTV like a hawk at the minute. The company hasn't proved yet that the residential business can be profitable, but it's moving towards that goal quite quickly.

I have a feeling in my bones that even if Esat /doesn't/ pull out of the market, we're going to see another big player come on stream in the near future. However I'm absolutely certain that if Esat /did/ pull out, someone will jump in with both feet almost immediately. Plus of course nahdoic's comments are pretty close to reality in my view -- if Esat pulls out of res, the Government has to be hammered.

Esat's failures in the residential market have certainly been impacted by extremely anti-competitive practices by Eircom and woefully bad regulation, but the core of their failure is simply incompetent handling. EsatBT is a bad business, period. In the long run, the market would be better off without them.

adam

crawler · 14-11-2003 5:55pm

wow - I dont like them but I wouldnt take such a hard view on them myself Adam...

Few things you should remember - UTVip are not a CPS operator they are a switchless reseller - hence it's not their actual network - It's someone else's - if that someone else left the market then......

While EsatBT may or may not be a bad business - it can be turned around, as any bad business can.

I would agree a temporary withdrawl from the market would be good but I dont think the death of EsatBt would be good for the economy , jobs or the market in general.

dahamsta · 14-11-2003 6:36pm

wow - I dont like them but I wouldnt take such a hard view on them myself Adam...

Don't be surprised crawler, I've always taken a hard view on EsatBT.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not suggesting that everyone in the company is at fault (I know a few in there) and I'm not suggesting that everyone in there is incompetent (the few I know do their jobs very well); it's just that, on balance, I think it's a rubbish company that should have crashed and died years ago. ("Should" in this case isn't a wish or a want, more an expression of shock and horror that it hasn't. But then with a monster like BT behind you...)

Few things you should remember - UTVip are not a CPS operator they are a switchless reseller - hence it's not their actual network - It's someone else's - if that someone else left the market then......

I don't see a real difference to be honest. They still need the underlying network and the underlying network needs them, so although it's not the same as EsatBT, it's not all that different when you get right down to it.

While EsatBT may or may not be a bad business - it can be turned around, as any bad business can.

If it needs to be turned around, doesn't that imply it's a bad business?

More importantly though, they simply haven't been able to turn some of the worst abominations in the business around, in particular billing. As I've said before, this is the core asset of any business, it's the very first thing that has to be fixed. Perhaps if EsatBT fixed their billing, res mightn't be as bad as it looks...

I would agree a temporary withdrawl from the market would be good but I dont think the death of EsatBt...

That's not what I was suggesting, at least not at this time -- I was talking about res above. The biz side would be much more difficult to judge. (Although it should be noted that billing is bordering on catastrophic here, and always has done.)

...would be good for the economy , jobs or the market in general.

On the res side, for the reasons outlined above, I find that very unlikely. On the wider front, I think a lot depends on how the market and the Government would react. If either decided to flip-flop on the issue, then it's quite possible you'd be right. Past experience would tend to support this, however I still get the feeling there are a few sharks waiting in the wings, and of course Dermot Ahern is a different kettle of fish in Gov.ie.

adam

De Rebel · 14-11-2003 8:15pm

ESAT have done little to change the market. They have tried a number of initiatives and failed for one of a number of reasons, some within their control, some outside (Incompetence, lack of planning, lack of will, market conditions etc.). It was never going to be easy for them, but any fool could have told them that at the outset. The bottom line is that they have proved ineffective. And that goes for both the residential and business markets.

In the many business proposals I have seen and evaluated, and some of them pretty substantial, there has rarely been a case where ESAT emerges as a clear cut winner when it gets beyond the powerpoint presentation stage. They do win some on merit, but its often swings and roundabouts and eircom often win because of their technical superiority and by sheer force of numbers.

As an example on a small scale, I got a ESAT "Broadband DSL" glossy in the post today. Standard marketing blurb, aimed exclusively at the business community. It seeks to do a hatchet job on eircom by comparing ESAT's 2MB offering with eircom's I-Stream starter package. Maybe it impressed some marketing buyer type in ESAT, but it certainly left me wondering about the quality of their product if they need to stoop to such an inaccurate comparison to flog their wares.

ESAT/BT is a wasted opportunity from start to finish. They had everything going for them at the outset in terms of goodwill. They have never been clear about their customer base, product range, modus operandi etc. and have lurched form one half implemented idea to the next. And worst of all, simply by being in the market they have allowed ComReg to delude themselves into thinking that that the market is successfully liberated and there is no need for radical action.

I’m not anti-ESAT per say, no more than I am pro-eircom. I have no wish to return to the days of the Dept of P&T being the sole supplier, but I would happily see ESAT depart and make room for someone with serious intent to shake up the market.

yellum · 14-11-2003 9:15pm

Esats like the slightly slow and retarded inbred cousin of Eircom. In a world of corrupt monopolies who needed a poor imitation ?

De Rebel · 14-11-2003 9:18pm

Originally posted by yellum
Esats like the slightly slow and retarded inbred cousin of Eircom. In a world of corrupt monopolies who needed a poor imitation ?

Took me 5 paragraphs to say that. I would so love to have your linguistic adroitness:p

degenerator · 15-11-2003 1:18am

Smart Telecom? Former staff of Conduit?

De Rebel · 15-11-2003 1:29am

Originally posted by degenerator
Smart Telecom? Former staff of Conduit?

pardon?

dahamsta · 15-11-2003 1:44am

Yellum's post was succinct but I found myself nodding vigorously when I was reading yours De Rebel, especially the last two paragraphs. Far better put than mine.

adam

yellum · 15-11-2003 1:59pm

Can all the cork men stop backpatting ?

crawler · 15-11-2003 2:07pm

A lot of the vews expressed in the last few post I would completely agree with but because of who I work for I cant really be seen to be slating the competition.

I am surpised that people do actually share my views and have actually said many of the things I wanted to say.

I know a hell of a lot of reall really good people in EsatBT , with really good ideas who have to toe the line of BT Global services ( EsatBT is part of BTGS) parent operating from Germany

Bill Murphy is a media machine with an American personality ( no disrespect intended to anyone!) - he will get his view out where he can , get the name at the highest profile possible and do all he can to pooh pooh the competition - the truth is there are a lot of guys out there doing it better, faster and cheaper than the 2 big boys

My own opinion is that if you feel the need to constantly tell people how great you are then there is usually something rotten at the core. Ireland is a small country - all the players and customers know each other well and if you have good products with good service then you dont need to shout - they sell themselves - I know this from personal experience.

Another view that may not be popular here is that I believe bickering about access to the eircom network is a futile exercise - the best way to run a telco is to own your own infrastructure - YES it is expensive but the longer run rate will yield dividends - if you are using someone else infrastructure then you will always be giving part of your margin away. There is a unique opportunity in this country if someone with money would see it - Technology has caught up with the problem.

Finally to the Government - There are a few people in Ireland that could transform the market to a world class leader with services you have not heard of - DSL is old and boring (folks - dont get me wrong - I would give my back teeth for it right now! ) - Just becuase it is new here it is not the bee's knees - We need to be BETTER than the rest - Better than asia , China , Hong Kong etc. I guarantee you that if everyone in Ireland woke up tomorrow and signed up to RADSL then you would have people using a network at close to Dial up speeds - dont be short sighted.

Now....that's a load off!

Ripwave · 17-11-2003 3:38pm

Originally posted by De Rebel
As an example on a small scale, I got a ESAT "Broadband DSL" glossy in the post today. Standard marketing blurb, aimed exclusively at the business community. It seeks to do a hatchet job on eircom by comparing ESAT's 2MB offering with eircom's I-Stream starter package. Maybe it impressed some marketing buyer type in ESAT, but it certainly left me wondering about the quality of their product if they need to stoop to such an inaccurate comparison to flog their wares.

Listen to the radio, or watch the TV, Rebel - Eircom are advertising i-Stream starter to businesses all the time.

andrew163 · 18-11-2003 12:17am

Originally posted by crawler
Finally to the Government - There are a few people in Ireland that could transform the market to a world class leader with services you have not heard of - DSL is old and boring (folks - dont get me wrong - I would give my back teeth for it right now! ) - Just becuase it is new here it is not the bee's knees - We need to be BETTER than the rest - Better than asia , China , Hong Kong etc. I guarantee you that if everyone in Ireland woke up tomorrow and signed up to RADSL then you would have people using a network at close to Dial up speeds - dont be short sighted.

any chance we could start a mass letter campaign to every government office in existance, quoting that paragraph?

erm.....I'm actually being serious there... :$

Victor · 18-11-2003 12:32am

Originally posted by DonegalMan
Like you, I have been extremely critical of various aspects of their operations, but they are the only serious nationwide competitor for Eircom; I think that any reduction in their presence would only serve to help Eircom screw the Irish people even further.

Esat have never been a serious company - look at the sheer number of times they have restructured and renamed and parts sold off (I only just notice Smart now own all their pay phones, something they were kicking and screaming for 5 years ago). Like ntl, they forgot the basics of business - provide a service and get paid for it.

Instead of providing their own local loops and other infrastructure, all to often the have just whinged at eircom (validity of problems with eircom is another matter.).

Urban Weigl · 18-11-2003 2:00am

Originally posted by Victor
Instead of providing their own local loops and other infrastructure, all to often the have just whinged at eircom (validity of problems with eircom is another matter.).

Agree with you on the first point. However, there is no way Esat could build an alternative infrastructure. It would cost billions upon billions. Anyway, it would be pretty dumb, imagine having a phone line on each side of the road... One Eircom and one Esat BT. Makes much more sense for a separate company to own the local loop, giving companies such as Esat BT and Eircom access to this.

Ripwave · 19-11-2003 8:02pm

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Agree with you on the first point. However, there is no way Esat could build an alternative infrastructure. It would cost billions upon billions.

The better part of a half a million new houses and apartments have been built in the last 10 years in Ireland - practically every single one of them has a telephone line from eircom providing the phone service.

Is there any obvious reason why ESAT didn't bid for the phone service in new estates and apartment complexes before they were built, aside from sheer incompetence and lack of imagination?

MadsL · 20-11-2003 11:58pm

However, there is no way Esat could build an alternative infrastructure. It would cost billions upon billions.

Not that they didn't try, and tried to get us to pay for it. They got a fair whack of taxpayer's money over the years.

ESAT BT threaten to quit residential market

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