7 days or 7 billion years?

Spear · 16-06-2009 4:45pm

uprising wrote: »

Enough mumbo jumbo, where are the facts that evolution is fact.

You mean other than the large, detailed, consistent body of evidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_evolution

Sam Vimes · 16-06-2009 4:45pm

uprising wrote: »

Enough mumbo jumbo, where are the facts that evolution is fact.

We need a new flu vaccine every year because the virus evolves. There's your proof

mobius42 · 16-06-2009 4:46pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I never said that it did give credence. It's just absolutely absurd to suggest that something exists, not only just something, but a place where we as humanity invest so much of our time and effort in, to end up with it being "meaningless".

I don't consider it closed minded to use a bit of common sense and reason.

I find it absurd to suggest that something exists because it was created by something else that "just exists" i.e. God. I also find it the height of arrogance to suggest that we have some sort of special position in the Universe despite the fact that there is nothing to suggest that we do. The Universe doesn't owe you a meaning of life nor does it owe you a reward for your investment.

Jakkass wrote: »

I consider divine revelation to be a record of communication between God and prophets. It's not "evidence" that is the concern however. The debate surrounds indication. What indicates to you that God exists, or what indicates to you that God does not. As for someone who cannot see how God can be indicated for, or what suggests that God exists, I would reccommend that you read some apologetics.

Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of what I mean when I say evidence? By evidence, I mean precisely that which indicates that God exists! And as for apologetics, it's just mental gymnastics for the purpose of furthering a delusion. It answers nothing, in an incredible fancy way.

Jakkass wrote: »

Atheism has nothing to do with reality, it's a mere denial. Whether or not such a denial is accurate in reality is a totally different question.

Not true. Anti-theism is a denial of God's existence. Atheism is just lack of belief. I don't believe in your God for the same reason you don't believe in Thor or Zeus.

Jakkass wrote: »

No, I'm not. I'm merely saying that there is only so far atheism can go in satisfying someones intellectual curiosity.

I competely agree. Atheism is not a philosophy.

Jakkass wrote: »

Faith and reason go hand in hand in terms of a Christian outlook. Likewise, reason is absolutely useless on its own, it must go hand in hand with empiricism or what one can gain through experience.

Firstly, the attitudes of your fellow Christians strongly undermine your first sentence! Also, you are right about empiricism. Reason and empiricism are pillars of the scientific method. However, how does it relate to Christianity? If you were empirical would you not question the very basis of the Bible? Would you not discover that most of the gospels were written 100 years after Jesus' death? Would you not question the various gospels that were not included in the Bible and how the ones that got in were translated? You talk of empiricism yet I see no evidence of you actually using it.

Jakkass wrote: »

Christians reason the Biblical scriptures because it is considered to be a chronology of peoples experiences. However, it is important also to have indication external to the Biblical text.

I think you'll find that most Christians haven't even read the Bible not to mention "reason" it. You are quite in the minority considering that you have even questioned and taken the time to understand what it is you are supposed to believe in.

Jakkass wrote: »

Which God? - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob seems to be the most reasonable to me.

Why?

Jakkass wrote: »

Why? - Why believe in God? Investigate what Christians actually argue. I've listed quite a few authors so far on this thread that give pretty clear reasons why one should believe in God.

I didn't mean why believe in God (a whole other argument), I meant why is life about developing a relationship with God?

Jakkass wrote: »

What is God? - This is where divine revelation kicks in. God revealed Himself to prophets and reveals Himself to us on a daily basis in our daily lives as Christians.

That doesn't tell me what God is.

Jakkass wrote: »

How does believing in God further understanding? - Well belief in God requires people to assess issues beyond a face value approach. Isolating what we can know to what we can only see at face value is a rather limiting worldview.

It depends on what you mean by "face value". Yes, we should investigate deeply the many mysteries of our Universe, but you don't investigate by making crazy stuff up and thinking the meaning of life was solved 2000 years ago by Middle-Eastern shepherds.

DTrotter · 16-06-2009 4:46pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

We need a new flu vaccine every year because the virus evolves. There's your proof

I thought Satan creates them.

Max Power1 · 16-06-2009 4:47pm

Twilightning wrote: »

You can't 'believe' in evolution since it's not based on faith. It's actual fact. If you don't adhere to it, there's something wrong.

Pretty much sums it up IMO.

Thats an important point that most theists dont get.

ScumLord · 16-06-2009 4:47pm

Would domestic animals be an example of a type of forced evolution. I seen some program where they showed the domestication process from a wild animal to a domesticated one.

mobius42 · 16-06-2009 4:48pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

We need a new flu vaccine every year because the virus evolves. There's your proof

Smart Bug · 16-06-2009 4:50pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Would domestic animals be an example of a type of forced evolution. I seen some program where they showed the domestication process from a wild animal to a domesticated one.

Yes.

uprising · 16-06-2009 4:50pm

pts wrote: »

uprising, if you seriously want to understand evolution I highly recomend this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8

When you make arguments like the ones you've just made you make yourself look silly as you are showing your ignorance in the subject matter.

I think you look the silly one, listening to a man explain some theory as fact, when did evolution end or will we become something else?

philologos · 16-06-2009 4:50pm

Twin-go wrote: »

They claim to have Faith.

Faith: "belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof" Encarta Dictionary.

I do believe in Christianity, and I don't believe there is absolute proof for God. I do however believe that there are indications for it. I believe both go together.

Twin-go wrote: »

Is faith not a hunch?

Depends on what kind of faith you are discussing. If you are discussing blind faith perhaps it is just a hunch. However if you are dealing with what is or what is not more probable and give reasons for believing then that isn't blind faith is it?

Twin-go wrote: »

My believe is based on Fact. When one Dies there is no brain activity. But I am open to be proven wrong, if somebody can show me evidence of the afterlife.

Beliefs aren't based on fact. If they were they wouldn't be beliefs they would be well, facts and they wouldn't be so contentious.

Twin-go wrote: »

I feel they are not making the most of their lives because they have limited themselves to their believe in the existence of a God. they devote their live to this God and make decisions through out their live base on their God. Religion removes a measure of free will to an extent.

Ah right. So because you feel I amn't making the most of my life I amn't. What kind of reasoning is that?

I think Christians are more free than atheists or agnostics. My views aren't based on popularity, I have the freedom not to be bound to the will of man, I don't have to be bound to social norms. I reject those who are tempting me into things that turn out to be a detriment.

I'd far prefer to have a devotion to God than a devotion to the evils of this world.

Twin-go wrote: »

But once you decided to follow God all future decisions you make will be influenced by your God.

So? I would rather my decisions be influenced by God than by humanity to be honest with you.

Twin-go wrote: »

Christianity as we know did stem from Judaism I agree but, the church as we know it today is not Christs church. It is far different.

Which church are you referring to? I've seen many Christians who truly want to live out their faith in honesty and integrity. Most of them in the younger age demographic.

By the way what do you have for assessing what is Christ's church? Why is Christs church better than a church of man. Didn't you just say a minute ago that morals contrived by people should be more important than morals revealed to mankind by God?

Twin-go wrote: »

China is not an Atheist country. Their society is controlled by Communionists who limit peoples involvement in religion and their free will to a certian extent in many other aspects of live. Many people in China would practice religions such as Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism if they had a different form of government. I don't know enough about North Korea to comment.

Yes, China is an atheist country. The majority of people are atheists, therefore it should be considered with the rest of the countries you are considering. Let's be intellectually honest. By the way, communism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to be a communist and an atheist, this is the way most communist states operated in the 20th century.

Twin-go wrote: »

Sweeden for example has a high standard of living low crime rates and has an Atheist majority

We can all pick the best of the batch and ignore the worst.

Twin-go wrote: »

It was my curiosity that has got me to move away from the church I was raised in. I started asking questions that religion could not answer. To be fare they where questions sience could not answer either but at least with sience I feel I am getting closer to the answers all the time.

Fair enough. I feel I am getting closer to the truth through my religion, and through other learning I would do. I don't believe religion and science are mutually exclusive either.

Boosh · 16-06-2009 4:52pm

uprising wrote: »

Evolution has'nt been proven and is not fact, its theory, theory is an idea

Yeah just like that damn stupid "theory" of Gravity. Pffffffftttttt i don't believe in that gravity stuff either.

DTrotter · 16-06-2009 4:53pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Would domestic animals be an example of a type of forced evolution. I seen some program where they showed the domestication process from a wild animal to a domesticated one.

Yes, the term would be artificial selection. Carl Sagan goes over it very well in Cosmos. Basically all traits are inherited form the parents through genes (thousands of years ago they didn't know the full mechanics like we do now). Take dogs as an example, all dogs share ancestry with wolves or dogs and wolves share ancestry with a wolf like creature. People started breeding wild creatures which displayed tame traits, the offspring would be tame and each genereation would be tamer. Subsequently dogs would be bred based on traits, swimming herding etc Over maybe a dozen generations a new breed may arise and if all the dogs of the same breed interbreed then the breed is maintaned. Soemtimes pure bred dogs fall sick easier than mutts, this is due to the founder effect because of a shallow gene pool.
Basically through artificial selection (every domesticated animal and crops) new breeds can arise in a small number of generations through artificial selection, so imagine what can happen over tens of thousands of generations through natural selection.
Someone else cab expalian it better.

DTrotter · 16-06-2009 4:55pm

uprising wrote: »

I think you look the silly one, listening to a man explain some theory as fact, when did evolution end or will we become something else?

What makes you think we're so special that evolution ends with us, we're just passing through.

mobius42 · 16-06-2009 4:58pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Ah right. So because you feel I amn't making the most of my life I amn't. What kind of reasoning is that?

I think Christians are more free than atheists or agnostics. My views aren't based on popularity, I have the freedom not to be bound to the will of man, I don't have to be bound to social norms. I reject those who are tempting me into things that turn out to be a detriment.

I'd far prefer to have a devotion to God than a devotion to the evils of this world.

Atheists views aren't based on popularity either. Nor are they bound to the will of man. Nor are they bound by social norms. Also, we can reject those who tempt us just as easily as you. What do you have extra besides the belief in Jewish zombies?

Talking about social norms, your Christian beliefs are heavily influenced by the social norms of Middle-Eastern society 2000 years ago. The Bible suggests stoning children and slaves!

Also, equating all the evils of the world with atheism is outrageous! Look at all the evil carried out in the name of God.

uprising · 16-06-2009 4:58pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

We need a new flu vaccine every year because the virus evolves. There's your proof

Yes in the labs of porton down, and why are the worlds best microbiologists all dying http://mikephilbin.blogspot.com/2009/04/swine-flu-pandemic-microbiologist.html

http://valis.gnn.tv/B16098

and the virus mutates because of the over use of antibiotics, unfinished courses of antibiotics leave superbugs behind.

pts · 16-06-2009 5:00pm

uprising wrote: »

I think you look the silly one, listening to a man explain some theory as fact, when did evolution end or will we become something else?

I'm afraid that to the majority of people on this thread (even some Christians) you are the one coming across as silly. I hope you watched it, if you did I'm sure you realised that some of the things you said earlier were not evolution or a misunderstanding of it.

It is a theory, in a scientific sense. Which is not the same as the common usage of the term theory. It has been rigorously tested since it was proposed and has been found to hold using tests from many different sciences. However more importantly it allows predictions to be made. Show me one prediction that can be made and can be tested if it is true or not, based on the "theory" that god created all the animals and humans in less than a week.

uprising · 16-06-2009 5:02pm

pts wrote: »

I'm afraid that to the majority of people on this thread (even some Christians) you are the one coming across as silly. I hope you watched it, if you did I'm sure you realised that some of the things you said earlier were not evolution or a misunderstanding of it.

It is a theory, in a scientific sense. Which is not the same as the common usage of the term theory. It has been rigorously tested since it was proposed and has been found to hold using tests from many different sciences. However more importantly it allows predictions to be made. Show me one prediction that can be made and can be tested if it is true or not, based on the "theory" that god created all the animals and humans in less than a week.

The majority? of sheep?, where did i say less than a week

DTrotter · 16-06-2009 5:02pm

If you don't believe in evolution the only alternative is that every living thing (including extinct animals/plants etc) was placed on earth in its original form.

ScumLord · 16-06-2009 5:04pm

DTrotter wrote: »

Soemtimes pure bred dogs fall sick easier than mutts, this is due to the founder effect because of a shallow gene pool.

This is one of my new pet hates (:pac:), I now think purebred dogs are one of the human races biggest acts of cruelty against animals. Working dogs are ok but show dogs are just deformed at this stage.

DTrotter · 16-06-2009 5:06pm

ScumLord wrote: »

This is one of my new pet hates (:pac:), I now think purebred dogs are one of the human races biggest acts of cruelty against animals. Working dogs are ok but show dogs are just deformed at this stage.

Want to buy a pure bred labradoodle?

uprising · 16-06-2009 5:08pm

DTrotter wrote: »

If you don't believe in evolution the only alternative is that every living thing (including extinct animals/plants etc) was placed on earth in its original form.

where is the human missing link, humans (homosapians) have always been humans, will we keep evolving, are we evolving right now?

pts · 16-06-2009 5:09pm

uprising wrote: »

The majority? of sheep?

We could all be wrong I guess. It would be arrogant to think otherwise. However why not investigate why all the "sheep" here actually do believe what they do before you dismiss it. I don't understand why you're so confident that a theory which has been tested by some of the brightest people around is wrong. I hope it's not just because you have a hunch that it's wrong.

uprising wrote: »

where did i say less than a week

I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that you found the "theory" of diversity of life (note that I didn't say beginning of life) from the Bible more compelling than the theory of evolution.

bleg · 16-06-2009 5:10pm

uprising wrote: »

Yes in the labs of porton down, and why are the worlds best microbiologists all dying http://mikephilbin.blogspot.com/2009/04/swine-flu-pandemic-microbiologist.html

http://valis.gnn.tv/B16098

and the virus mutates because of the over use of antibiotics, unfinished courses of antibiotics leave superbugs behind.

antibiotics dont affect viruses. anti virals do.

pts · 16-06-2009 5:12pm

uprising wrote: »

where is the human missing link, humans (homosapians) have always been humans,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution for your reading pleasure.

uprising wrote: »

will we keep evolving, are we evolving right now?

Yes, you are different from your parents, and your children (if you have any) will share many similar traits with you, but will be different from you.

DTrotter · 16-06-2009 5:15pm

uprising wrote: »

where is the human missing link, humans (homosapians) have always been humans, will we keep evolving, are we evolving right now?

The term missing link is a meme that is thrown around, genetics proves common ancestry between primates.

uprising · 16-06-2009 5:17pm

pts wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution for your reading pleasure.

Yes, you are different from your parents, and your children (if you have any) will share many similar traits with you, but will be different from you.

The dominant view among scientists is the recent African origin of modern humans.

the dominant view isnt fact, its their view.........

I'm still human, like my parents, whats next?

My name is URL · 16-06-2009 5:17pm

bleg wrote: »

antibiotics dont affect viruses. anti virals do.

Don't affect or don't cure?

I'd be surprised if the amount of Antibiotics that's prescribed doesn't have some affect on our own immune systems and how virus adapt to take advantage of a weakened one.

uprising · 16-06-2009 5:22pm

DTrotter wrote: »

The term missing link is a meme that is thrown around, genetics proves common ancestry between primates.

No it doesnt, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0413_060413_evolution.html

from link above "The species lived between 3 million and 3.6 million years ago and is widely considered an ancestor of modern humans"

Widely considered, widely considered a fact????

uprising · 16-06-2009 5:25pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Don't affect or don't cure?

I'd be surprised if the amount of Antibiotics that's prescribed doesn't have some affect on our own immune systems and how virus adapt to take advantage of a weakened one.

What has been proven that over use of antibiotics has strenghtened viruses, has affected and altered our inbuilt immune system

DTrotter · 16-06-2009 5:29pm

uprising wrote: »

No it doesnt, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0413_060413_evolution.html

from link above "The species lived between 3 million and 3.6 million years ago and is widely considered an ancestor of modern humans"

Widely considered, widely considered a fact????

It shows different stages of progression in the fossil record, the term missing link is thrown around by creationsists as if they're expecting some kind of fossil of a chimpanzee driving a car or something. Genetics proves as much almost as fossils.

7 days or 7 billion years?

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