Two types of Fada??

PLL · 09-04-2014 7:29pm #1

I have the understanding that the fada is an acute accent: á é í ó ú leaning towards the right.

However I have a friend with children named Càitlin and Àoife with a grave accent. I wasn't aware this accent was part of the Irish language.

Is there anyone who could clear this up for me??

sopretty · 09-04-2014 7:36pm

PLL wrote: »

I have the understanding that the fada is an acute accent: á é í ó ú leaning towards the right.

However I have a friend with children named Càitlin and Àoife with a grave accent. I wasn't aware this accent was part of the Irish language.

Is there anyone who could clear this up for me??

The fada is forward facing and changes the sound of a vowel.

A (Ah) becomes Aww
E (Eh) becomes aodh or aye or é (same sound as in neigh or sleigh)
I (ih) becomes eeeeeeeeeeeee (like weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee)
O (oh) becomes the sound like in blow
U (uh) becomes the sound like in 'you'.

If you can think of A, like in saying a, but á like in when your doctor asks you to open your mouth and say A?

Fada means long.

It's a long accent on the letter.

Instead of a short version, you drag out the letter.

sopretty · 09-04-2014 7:39pm

If you think of Aha! and that sound, as opposed to Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Same letter, different sounds.

Aoife wouldn't have a fada in spelling (I think????)

The Caitlin one is just eh............. nonsensical in terms of the Irish language.

Tokyo · 09-04-2014 7:48pm

To answer your question - there's only one diacritic in the Irish language - the síneadh fada. As has been described above, it's used to lengthen the vowel sounds.

As for the names - I'd love to see what's on their birth certificates?! First off, the Àà diacritics are nonsensical - thy don't exist in irish, and even if they were standard fada's, there's no fada on the a in Aoife, and if there was to be a fada in Caitlín, it would be on the i, not the a.....

GaelMise · 09-04-2014 7:54pm

mike_ie wrote: »

To answer your question - there's only one diacritic in the Irish language - the síneadh fada. As has been described above, it's used to lengthen the vowel sounds.

As for the names - I'd love to see what's on their birth certificates?! First off, the Àà diacritics are nonsensical - thy don't exist in irish, and even if they were standard fada's, there's no fada on the a in Aoife, and if there was to be a fada in Caitlín, it would be on the i, not the a.....

Àà 'Backwards fada' might be comming from a Scottish Gaelic Spelling?

Tokyo · 09-04-2014 7:59pm

GaelMise wrote: »

Àà 'Backwards fada' might be comming from a Scottish Gaelic Spelling?

Very good point - one I didn't think of. Though the positioning on the name still wouldn't make sense in terms of pronunciation, no? Trying to say the names out loud to myself here using the accents as written, don't exactly sound pleasant

sopretty · 09-04-2014 8:07pm

Neither names are Scottish Gaelic.

pog it · 09-04-2014 8:24pm

PLL wrote: »

I have the understanding that the fada is an acute accent: á é í ó ú leaning towards the right.

However I have a friend with children named Càitlin and Àoife with a grave accent. I wasn't aware this accent was part of the Irish language.

Is there anyone who could clear this up for me??

As the others have said there is no grave accent in the Irish language.
There is in Scots Gaelic but it seems like 'Caitlin' in Scots Gaelic doesn't get any type of fada anywhere in any case.

But 'Aoife' might be pronounced differently in Scots Gaelic so maybe your friend has deliberately put the grave accents on the names to aid pronunciation?
Even if it's not correct?

An Riabhach · 10-04-2014 2:38am

I read somewhere that the original primitive Irish language from centuries ago used both types of fada-and as the language spread to Scotland,and as the language evolved,the acute fada became the one accent used in Irish,and the grave fada was adopted by Scottish Gaelic.
Mar shampla:

Gaeilge / Gàilig

Fáilte / Fàilte
Éire / Èirinn
Dún Éideann / Dùn Èideann

I have never seen Aoife written with a fada-but I have seen Cáitlín and Caitlín written in Irish.
The Scottish Gaelic equivalent may or may not use the fada.

ezra_pound · 10-04-2014 3:33am

Seasan wrote: »

I read somewhere that the original primitive Irish language from centuries ago used both types of fada-and as the language spread to Scotland,and as the language evolved,the acute fada became the one accent used in Irish,and the grave fada was adopted by Scottish Gaelic.
Mar shampla:

Gaeilge / Gàilig

Fáilte / Fàilte
Éire / Èirinn
Dún Éideann / Dùn Èideann

I have never seen Aoife written with a fada-but I have seen Cáitlín and Caitlín written in Irish.
The Scottish Gaelic equivalent may or may not use the fada.

The name Cáitlín should always have two fadas. Otherwise it ends up being confused with Katelyn etc.

Absoluvely · 10-04-2014 3:37am

ezra_pound wrote: »

The name Cáitlín should always have two fadas. Otherwise it ends up being confused with Katelyn etc.

That can't be right. Cáitlín would sound like Kawtleen.

ezra_pound · 10-04-2014 7:54am

Absoluvely wrote: »

That can't be right. Cáitlín would sound like Kawtleen.

Well more like kawitleen. But yea. Exactly.

That is the name. Other wise it would sound like Katelyn.

An Riabhach · 10-04-2014 10:04am

Caitlin would look like Katelin in English pronunciation.
But if said in Irish,it would be Kattchlin-because the pronunciation of "ai" in Irish is not the same as the pronunciation in English.

sopretty · 10-04-2014 10:13am

An English boss of mine called his child Caitlín, but pronounces it Katelyn. No amount of telling him could change his mind.

Aard · 10-04-2014 11:10am

Sounds like a case of the Vanity Fada rearing its head OP! And a Scottish fada at that.

Tokyo · 10-04-2014 11:25am

Aard wrote: »

Sounds like a case of the Vanity Fada rearing its head OP! And a Scottish fada at that.

BUT MY CHILDREN ARE SPECIAL!!!!!!!! :pac:

Worst children's names... sounds like the making of a new thread.

An gal gréine · 10-04-2014 3:14pm

Gàidhlig used two diacritical marks 'till about 20 year ago when they decided to cease with the Irish type 'stràc' (síneadh fada to us) and retain the 'stràc' that they use now.
Either way, they don't use any on Caitlín or Aoife.
In Ireland we do have Cáit and Cáitín for Kate and Katie....and shouldn't have to change our Caitlín for any Katelyn.

hullaballoo · 10-04-2014 4:54pm

I'm not someone who regularly listens to Gàidhlig - what is the effect of the ` in Gàidhlig?

An gal gréine · 10-04-2014 7:14pm

hullaballoo wrote: »

I'm not someone who regularly listens to Gàidhlig - what is the effect of the ` in Gàidhlig?

The ì, è and ù are the same as Irish Gaelic.
The ì is found in saying the English word bee.
The è in dare and
the ù in pool.

à is similar to how we say Navan...stretching the a rather than emphasising it.
The ò is said as in aught.

That's how I hear it anyway.

sopretty · 10-04-2014 7:24pm

We're discussing Gaeilge here, non?

Insect Overlord · 10-04-2014 7:41pm

sopretty wrote: »

We're discussing Gaeilge here, non?

Gaeilge and Gàidhlig are very close relatives (and were pretty much one and the same language up til about 200 years ago). The inclination of the accent on the words in the OP suggests the latter, rather than the former, hence the direction of the discussion.

sopretty · 10-04-2014 7:43pm

Perhaps the OP should just tell her friend that her children's names are from Scots Gaelic then?

Or, keep her nose well out lol.

sopretty · 10-04-2014 7:45pm

An File wrote: »

Gaeilge and Gàidhlig are very close relatives (and were pretty much one and the same language up til about 200 years ago). The inclination of the accent on the words in the OP suggests the latter, rather than the former, hence the direction of the discussion.

Our language is ours.

Insect Overlord · 10-04-2014 7:45pm

sopretty wrote: »

Perhaps the OP should just tell her friend that her children's names are from Scots Gaelic then?

Or, keep her nose well out lol.

Judging from your replies here, I reckon that's advice you'd do well to heed yourself. If you're not interested, stop posting.

sopretty wrote: »

Our language is ours.

And that doesn't even make sense.

An Riabhach · 11-04-2014 11:45am

An File wrote: »

Gaeilge and Gàidhlig are very close relatives (and were pretty much one and the same language up til about 200 years ago). The inclination of the accent on the words in the OP suggests the latter, rather than the former, hence the direction of the discussion.

I always believed that too-that in the 4th or 5th century the Gaels(or Scotis,as called by ancient romans) from ancient Ireland who travelled to ancient Scotland spread the Gaelic language throughout Scotland.In other words,Gaeilge is really the parent language of Gàilig.
I'd still often hear people saying jokingly that the Scottish speak the same language as we do,but with a very different accent.

Apologies for going off topic,b.t.w.

dubhthach · 11-04-2014 12:30pm

mike_ie wrote: »

To answer your question - there's only one diacritic in the Irish language - the síneadh fada. As has been described above, it's used to lengthen the vowel sounds.

Since the adaption of "Cló Romanach" yes, but obviously we use to have the "ponc séimhithe / ponc buailte" before then. Thankfully with Unicode it's easy to use it now adays, particulary if you are using a keymapping like "Cló Gaelach" on the likes of Mac OSX.

ċ,ḋ,ḟ,ġ,ṁ,ṗ,ṡ,ṫ

Personally I think we should go back to using the punc.

-Duḃṫaċ

hullaballoo · 11-04-2014 12:39pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Personally I think we should go back to using the punc.

-Duḃṫaċ

I agree and I also think we should adopt something to denote eclipsed consonants as well.

An Riabhach · 11-04-2014 12:48pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Since the adaption of "Cló Romanach" yes, but obviously we use to have the "ponc séimhithe / ponc buailte" before then. Thankfully with Unicode it's easy to use it now adays, particulary if you are using a keymapping like "Cló Gaelach" on the likes of Mac OSX.

ċ,ḋ,ḟ,ġ,ṁ,ṗ,ṡ,ṫ

Personally I think we should go back to using the punc.

-Duḃṫaċ

Please tell me if you know of any way of doing that on a smartphone?

That was way before my time but I'd love to be able to do it.If I was to text my Ma as Gaeilge using the old séimhiú she'd be pleasantly surprised!

dubhthach · 11-04-2014 1:42pm

Seasan wrote: »

Please tell me if you know of any way of doing that on a smartphone?

That was way before my time but I'd love to be able to do it.If I was to text my Ma as Gaeilge using the old séimhiú she'd be pleasantly surprised!

Well it's not included on keymapping's supported on iPhone (if i pressed won on C for example I only see three diacritics on that, none of them the ponc).

Given that it's supported in Linux with "Cló Gaelach" keymap I would imagine it wouldn't be too hard to have keymapping added to Android (Android = patched Linux kernel + custom userland + mutant-Java)

The slow way of doing it of course would be to use copy/paste in a smartphone. So for example prepare the text, send it in email, copy/paste out of email client into SMS etc.

I'm not sure though if standard SMS would support it, it probably doesn't use unicode for encoding.

dubhthach · 11-04-2014 1:49pm

hullaballoo wrote: »

I agree and I also think we should adopt something to denote eclipsed consonants as well.

ɲ / ŋ for ng (slender/broad) as an example perhaps?

For other cases, where there are several different diacritics available for g, d, b, n etc.

Awh well I doubt any such change would ever be brought in, but it's a nice academic exercise that's for sure! At least with bringing back the ponc there's actual precedence of it's usage in the language, likewise for encouraging the use of ⁊ instead of & (on my Mac: alt+& = ⁊)

Two types of Fada??

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