Zero tolerance

looksee · 03-04-2007 1:38pm #1

There are a couple of threads on here at the moment about scumbag behaviour. One is about motorised bikes in a park, the other about a couple of layabouts smashing up a car and a child's bike.

It seems to me that this is a good example of what the New York zero tolerance policy was aimed at. I know there is no actual connection between the two examples, but the young lads in the park are saying - look I can do anything I want and nobody can stop me. Its a natural progression to 'I want to do something - kick a football against a wall, bully a child - and I know I can get away with it, nobody has ever stopped me before'. Like young children they will keep pushing the boundaries till they commit crime serious enough for the guards to take to court and be reasonably sure that it will be taken seriously, and by then its too late.

Zero tolerance at the 12 to 14 years stage, including making the parents responsible for their little darlings' behaviour, might in the long run have more effect than building new adult prisons.

This should probably be in another forum, but it relates to points in AH, please move it it if its in the wrong place.

hottstuff · 03-04-2007 1:45pm

Yes.
I agree parents should be held responsible for their childrens actions without a doubt.
But TBH the parents are worse than the kids in a lot of cases.

brianthebard · 03-04-2007 1:54pm

This won't be possible until there are more guards imo. Although I have started to notice a stronger presence lately. Last night there was a fight on the street and there was a squad car there in less than a minute, was patroling the town after the pubs closed. Even last year there was massive fights in the chipper every now and again and didn't get sorted out as quickly. Its definitely the parents faults imo, I know people from what would be a bad part of Sligo and the reason they aren't in jail is their parents.

dame · 03-04-2007 1:56pm

Yes, wouldn't we all love to see parents taking responsibility for their little darlings but how exactly will that happen? The parents of these kids are often proud of their little Johnny that he can take care of himself. Teachers sometimes get little co-operation or even acknowledgement when they broach the subject of bad behaviour with parents. ASBO's seem to having only a small effect in England.

I personally would love to see a zero tolerance campaign to stamp out all sorts of anti-social behaviour but I think it would need to start with adults. Disciplining kids is a mine-field and parents can so easily take offence and then little Johnny is just reinforced in the belief that nothing he does will ever land him in trouble. Start out by jailing all their older brothers and scumbag idols and work downwards from that. They'll hopefully get the message when all the bigger boys are locked up.

I also think singling out certain areas and schools as "disadvantaged" only seems to almost make them feel they have a right to do what they want because they're "disadvantaged". As it is disadvantaged schools have lower pupil to teacher ratios and more funding yet whatever they get is never enough and the same families/schools/areas seem to remain disadvantaged forever.

There's also the little spoilt brats for whose parents nothing is ever too much. These parents also need to be taught to take responsibility for their darlings and not let them off out terrorising others on their quad bikes until they are old enough to be responsible about it.

NutJob · 03-04-2007 2:11pm

making the parents responsible for their little darlings'

The parents should be held responsible for minors.

Any damage done by the child should be taken from the parents wages or dole and these problems would quickly stop as the kids would get there hides tanned.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ · 03-04-2007 2:15pm

NutJob wrote:

The parents should be held responsible for minors.

Any damage done by the child should be taken from the parents wages or dole and these problems would quickly stop as the kids would get there hides tanned.

i totally agree, but they have to be caught first.

LFCFan · 03-04-2007 2:26pm

the main issue is obviously parents but until the justice system comes down hard on these people, nothing is going to change and things are only going to get worse. I'm sick of hearing about some scumbag with 40+ convictions getting a suspended sentence so he can go straight out and do the same crap all over again. It's pathetic. We need a complete overhaul of the system and half the judges currently sitting should be retired or sacked for incompetance.

sioda · 03-04-2007 3:03pm

I really feel the whole ASBO thing is a waste of time with these little criminals using them as badges of honour.

Totally agree with docking dole or wages for the damages.

At the end of the day its the systems fault here in Ireland. I know families here in Limerick when asked what is the family business they reply Dole as its all they know. People like this need a major kick up the back side and be forced into work or have their payments stopped. [/rant]

looksee · 03-04-2007 3:14pm

Children at risk can be taken into care with minimum fuss. Couldn't the younger elements -under 14s say - be picked up and put into a 'care' situation where they would have plain wholesome food, no entertainment, no interviews, no mates, no fuss, just uninvolved supervision, and be left to themselves for perhaps 24 to 48 hours while social workers interviewed the parents and checked up on their background.

A couple of days of total boredom would have more impression than the fuss and attention of the legal system and there wouldn't be the cool aspect of being taken to the guarda station and having contact with adult offenders.

When the parents have answered for themselves and if there is really no home issue to be sorted, let the child go home with no further threats hanging over them. They are well used to empty threats, but if antisocial behaviour gets them a couple of days of total boredom it would sort out the messers and the followers, if not the gang leaders.

slipss · 03-04-2007 3:34pm

NutJob wrote:

The parents should be held responsible for minors.

Any damage done by the child should be taken from the parents wages or dole and these problems would quickly stop as the kids would get there hides tanned.

This is already the situation, if a kid breaks your car window for example you can already take thier parents to small claims court for the cost of the damage, but like \m/_(>_<)_\m/ (does that spell or symbolise something or is it just random keys?) said it's catching them and proving they are responsible that is the problem. Obviously you can't just say "I have no proof but well it was probably Jimmy Troublemaker, go get some money off his dad for me" to the gardai.

NutJob · 03-04-2007 3:53pm

slipss wrote:

This is already the situation, if a kid breaks your car window for example you can already take thier parents to small claims court for the cost of the damage, but like \m/_(>_<)_\m/ (does that spell or symbolise something or is it just random keys?) said it's catching them and proving they are responsible that is the problem. Obviously you can't just say "I have no proof but well it was probably Jimmy Troublemaker, go get some money off his dad for me" to the gardai.

Fair point but wouldn't the problem of catching jimmy apply to all cases including ASBO/zero tolerance approach. No matter what you still have to catch him red handed to be able to do anything about the problem.

LFCFan · 03-04-2007 3:59pm

maybe for minors, the parents should be tried in their place and justice dished out to them? If these 'parents' thought they could end up in jail because of something their little toerag got up to, they may be more inclined to make sure they're not up to no good.

DarkJager · 03-04-2007 4:16pm

Best policy would be if these scumbags are caught doing something then the victim gets total control over what punishment is given. I'd personally break their heads open with a cinder block..

slipss · 03-04-2007 4:45pm

Just out of curiosity what exactly is the zero tollerance policy in New York that the OP is refering to?

looksee · 03-04-2007 5:58pm

The idea was that the police stamp down on minor crime and this would have a kind of ripple effect in cutting down crime generally. I'm using the term rather loosely because it has not been proved to be effective (nor has it been proved ineffective) and can even be considered to be against civil liberties. In spite of the arguments against it, I think that allowing children to get away with anti-social behaviour is breeding future criminals - self indulgent people who feel entitled to do or take whatever they want, just because they want to.

Dooom · 03-04-2007 7:37pm

slipss wrote:

Just out of curiosity what exactly is the zero tollerance policy in New York that the OP is refering to?

Iirc, one incident involved several people being handcuffed to a hand rail for the majority of the night for drinking in public or littering or some such.*

*Could be completely wrong there

Time Magazine · 03-04-2007 7:46pm

Essentially it's a PR campaign to make criminals think they're not going to be let-off. Legislatively, it means some things that can already exist like three-strikes and you're out, etc.

Wouldn't happen and wouldn't work in Ireland.

Sangre · 03-04-2007 7:48pm

America is the last place in the developed world where I'd look to model judicial reform on.

03-04-2007 8:08pm

They need more hidden CCTV in problem areas. Least that way if something happens, they have evidence.

Sir Oxman · 03-04-2007 9:20pm

NutJob wrote:

The parents should be held responsible for minors.

Any damage done by the child should be taken from the parents wages or dole and these problems would quickly stop as the kids would get there hides tanned.

Totally agree. For any discipline to be effective these days, the pocket must be hit.

There should be zero tolerance of anti-social behaviour - it is the biggest cause of daily misery in Ireland IMO.

LFCFan · 03-04-2007 9:52pm

slipss wrote:

Just out of curiosity what exactly is the zero tollerance policy in New York that the OP is refering to?

AFAIK, Rudi Juliani brought this in to NY and the city has been trasnformed into a much safer place. I was there before he brought it in and I was a bit wary of walking around at night and there was deffo a bad feeling around the place. Was there in January again and it's like a different city. I felt so much better walking around at night and the place just felt better.

jrey1981 · 04-04-2007 3:04am

I haven't been back there since 2000, but when I was in NY it was great. Almost police on every corner - literally. I was walking through Central Park and realised I was on my own and got a bit tetchy then around the next corner there was a police car just sitting there keeping an eye on things.

Same when I was on the underground there and it was quite busy and some dodgy looking guys got on and the cops got on at the next stop.

Again when I went to a shop and there was a gang of dodgy gang hanging around and then around the corner came a cop.

They used to have bobbies on the beat in the UK. They don't any more, but they seem to have in NY. We need them here as well.

It's proactive policing instead of reactive policing.

Zero tolerance

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