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SF Aengus O'Snodaigh has claimed €50,000 in expenses for Printer Ink

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  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The Irish Daily Mail are running another front-line story on this tomorrow, claiming that other SF TD's were at the same sort of game as O'Snodaigh.

    Right up the Mails street! In fairness they are right to dig further.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,357 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    SeanW wrote: »
    This is bizarre, €50,000 euro on printer ink? At €130 per cartridge? How does ink cost that much (inkjet or laser?), and how much material must he have printed to use that.

    Very questionable IMO.

    Explained in an earlier post I made.
    But toner, can cost that much, and more, depending on a few things.
    http://www.stinkyinkshop.co.uk/kyocera-mita/toner-cartridges/kyocera-mita-fs-c5350dn


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:

    OK, people asked for this to go back onto the Politics main page, and it did. Please keep in mind that you are posting in Politics, and not the cafe, AH, or YLYL.

    Off topic and 'wrong forum' posts deleted, but from here on out they will be infracted and deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Only in Ireland.... I am furious about this.

    What I can't believe is he defends this.... Even if the printing was all done inside the rules its a huge amount of money to spend on this. There are much more cost effective methods of printing + distributing information than this.

    This TD wasted our money to print stupid lealets that no one reads. This TD wasted the equiv of 2 peoples salaries. This TD shows no respect of the situation Ireland is in at the moment.

    If one TD has done this.... multiply it by the rest of the idiots up there in leinster house...


    Apologize Aengus for not being more careful with our money!!! If he doesn't anyone who voted for this TD should remember his actions next time around. Especially those who have lost their jobs, who have taken pay cuts, who have felt the bite of the extra taxes that are heaped on us. This type of wasteful and shrug the shoulders "I'm worth it attitude" stinks. Absolutely stinks. Shame on you Aengus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    In 2007 O' Snodaigh used 215 cartridges compared to 48 for Michael Moynihan (FF). O' Snodaigh uses the argument that the bigger parties had priority access to the printing presses in Leinster House which he did not have.

    It would be interesting if we could get Michael Moynihan's total usage of the Leinster House printing press as it may be the case that the 48 cartridges he claimed may not tell the whole story. If it can be shown that the bigger parties do not exploit this printing press then it would kill off his argument.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,357 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    In 2007 O' Snodaigh used 215 cartridges compared to 48 for Michael Moynihan (FF). O' Snodaigh uses the argument that the bigger parties had priority access to the printing presses in Leinster House which he did not have.

    It would be interesting if we could get Michael Moynihan's total usage of the Leinster House printing press as it may be the case that the 48 cartridges he claimed may not tell the whole story. If it can be shown that the bigger parties do not exploit this printing press then it would kill off his argument.
    He doesn't have an argument, in any way, shape or form.
    Why compare his usage to an FF member?
    Why not compare to an independent or a member of a small party who hasn't gotten access to the "printing press" either? Surely that would be more relevant (from what I can tell no one came close to his usage)


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    It is interesting that if any other party partake in waste like this it is a disgrace and robbing the taxpayers but if Sinn Fein do it they call it "working the system".

    They truly are the new Fianna Fail in every respect by the looks of it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,357 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    gandalf wrote: »
    It is interesting that if any other party partake in waste like this it is a disgrace and robbing the taxpayers but if Sinn Fein do it they call it "working the system".

    They truly are the new Fianna Fail in every respect by the looks of it!

    Speak for yourself. I have no problem calling it a disgrace.
    All parties and individuals need to adhere to the rules and get punished when they don't.

    This guy used 50K worth of ink in two years and no one thought (and it was known what was going on as the guidelines on ink, drawn up since were as a result of this) to report it to either the standards in public office monitors (I assume we have them) or the garda fraud squad.....
    In much the same way we have seen the politicians before him get away without investigation and punishment if required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    kippy wrote: »
    He doesn't have an argument, in any way, shape or form.
    Why compare his usage to an FF member?
    Why not compare to an independent or a member of a small party who hasn't gotten access to the "printing press" either? Surely that would be more relevant (from what I can tell no one came close to his usage)

    Why not compare his use in 2007/2008 (when he didn't have to pay for the cartridges) with his use in 2009 (when a limit was brought in so you paid for anything above ~2500 euro). His latter use is one fifth his previous use - the ~3700 bill he still hasn't paid.

    Total abuse of taxpayers money. He should resign.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Ms McDonald denied the laser cartridges had been shared by the rest of the party against Oireachtas rules.

    "I think by any standards €50,000 is excessive for that purpose," she said, but made it clear the party would not reimburse the taxpayer.

    Ms McDonald claimed her party colleague had been "let down by the system" as nobody had "tapped him on the shoulder" to warn him of the costs involved.
    http://examiner.ie/ireland/politics/call-for-probe-into-50k-ink-cartridge-bill-affair-185496.html

    thought this was funny, SF basically seem to be saying that they cant control themselves but that they need to be watched hmmmmmmm. let down by the system right, i've just been thinking twice about buying a laser toner at 75 euro for our main office printer !


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  • What i want to know is, not just what O'Snodaigh was spending on ink (and presumably a fair bit also on the paper and sundries to go with it) but what in God's name was he printing in such a volume, and do we even know if he was the beneficiary of all of the cartridges he used. Were they cartridges, or was it money towards cartridges?

    The amount of printing he's clocked up here for his €50k extends well into the millions of pages, while running a constituency of maybe 80-100,000 people. Has he used all this ink/paper/money himself, and if so on what, and if not has somebody else had some benefit here which they should not have had from taxpayers money? I'm not an expert in printing, but i know enough to know that those printers would have to have been running night, noon, and morning to clock up that kind of a spend on laser toner, and for O'Snodaigh and Sinn Fein to hide behind the "well technically, we didn't break any rules" excuse, after all the rhetoric they spouted at fianna fail and to a lesser extend fine gael governments of late about wasting taxpayers money is the height of hypocrisy and is also a terrible indictment of the systems and controls in place in leinster house.

    Also, a larger question exists here. One of value to the taxpayer. If i as a private consumer can cut my home printer ink bill by 60 or 70% simply by shopping around on the internet for refills or spurious cartridges, why in the name of god can't the procurement people in the public service who buy this stuff in for people like Mr. O'Snodaigh to use do the same? Why are we paying top dollar for this stuff at a time when the country is broke and everybody but the people at the top seem to be feeling the pinch? Why should we as taxpayers allow this wholesale waste of resources in a time of widespread pain and austerity when those in power over us only seem to want to pay lip service to us about "tightening our belts" while continuing with the same old wasteful, gravy train culture?

    There have to be enormous savings to be made here, and i have a feeling that the old public service resistance against making a saving in case your budget gets cut by that amount next year is still hard at work. Our public expenditure system is still rotten to the core, and farcical day to day examples like this only show it up for the mockery it continues to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    kippy wrote: »
    Why compare his usage to an FF member?

    If the FF leader is calling for an inquiry into this then I am sure, in the interest of transparency, he would like to compare O' Snodaigh's total number of cartridges used with the total (constituency office + Leinster House printing press) cartridges used by the most profligate member of his own party.

    The figure of 48 cartridges is being used by the media as a comparison but it, presumably isn't comparing like with like as it does not include printing done in Leinster House which O' Snodaigh couldn't avail of. Presumably this issue is just about waste of tax payer's money and nothing to do with political point scoring so why would you be against a fair comparison of printing expenses with members of the bigger parties?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    kippy wrote: »
    All parties and individuals need to adhere to the rules and get punished when they don't.

    Which rule did he not adhere to that you would justify officially punishing him for breaking?
    This guy used 50K worth of ink in two years and no one thought (and it was known what was going on as the guidelines on ink, drawn up since were as a result of this) to report it to either the standards in public office monitors (I assume we have them) or the garda fraud squad.....

    Why don't you ring up the garda fraud squad now and report it? Why complain about nobody else doing it when you now have the information? When reporting it just be ready to point out to the garda what fraud he actually committed because I haven't seen anything he did which was illegal. Their number is (+353) 1 6663776, report back to us and let us know what they say.

    Stupid? Yes.
    Illegal? I don't think so.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Which rule did he not adhere to that you would justify officially punishing him for breaking?



    Why don't you ring up the garda fraud squad now and report it? Why complain about nobody else doing it when you now have the information? When reporting it just be ready to point out to the garda what fraud he actually committed because I haven't seen anything he did which was illegal. Their number is (+353) 1 6663776, report back to us and let us know what they say.

    Stupid? Yes.
    Illegal? I don't think so.

    Stupid? Yes.
    Greedy? Yes.
    Unethical? Yes.
    Hypocritical? Yes

    Illegal. No

    Now let's ask - who exactly decides what TDs are entitled to and therefore sets the bar for what is, and is not, illegal according to those rules?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,357 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Which rule did he not adhere to that you would justify officially punishing him for breaking?



    Why don't you ring up the garda fraud squad now and report it? Why complain about nobody else doing it when you now have the information? When reporting it just be ready to point out to the garda what fraud he actually committed because I haven't seen anything he did which was illegal. Their number is (+353) 1 6663776, report back to us and let us know what they say.

    Stupid? Yes.
    Illegal? I don't think so.

    A point was made earlier in this thread that while the amount of cartridges he took may not have been against any rules in place at the time, what he used them for, may have broken the rules and possibly the law.
    However, it is very difficult to know for sure without an investigation by the authorities and this is where, in the past, issues like this have been forgotten about.
    http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Complaints/ are the first port of call.

    It is very difficult to point what what fraud took place without an investigation, I am merely suggesting that an investigation needs to take place.


    Do you not find it at all odd that an elected member manages to use 50K worth of toner in two years?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    The problem is no one knows exactly what he did with all that ink, maybe he did use it for printing off or maybe he sold a few, maybe he brought some home, maybe he gave it to collegues, maybe he gave it to his Dad for his printing company. Hopefully it'll be investigated further though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,357 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    If the FF leader is calling for an inquiry into this then I am sure, in the interest of transparency, he would like to compare O' Snodaigh's total number of cartridges used with the total (constituency office + Leinster House printing press) cartridges used by the most profligate member of his own party.

    The figure of 48 cartridges is being used by the media as a comparison but it, presumably isn't comparing like with like as it does not include printing done in Leinster House which O' Snodaigh couldn't avail of. Presumably this issue is just about waste of tax payer's money and nothing to do with political point scoring so why would you be against a fair comparison of printing expenses with members of the bigger parties?

    It appears that this "printing press" is available to all members of the Oireactas if they wish to use it, however what is printed on it is monitored and must not contain election material etc.

    The issue is around the waste of tax payers money, the lack of accountability/transparency and the continuing attitude of the political class that it's not their money.
    On another level the issue is about the standards in public office and the questions that have been raised about who benefited from this 50K worth of ink.
    Finally, yes, there is obviously political points scoring at play. I've already stated that and I've stated that it is a bit hypocritical of FF to be mouthing about this, in the same way that this incident shows that SF members will waste money when it suits them.

    I have nothing per se against SF, I've spoken out about the mismanagement of public monies, the skirting of the rules and the lack of accountability in public service many times in the past.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    kippy wrote: »
    It appears that this "printing press" is available to all members of the Oireactas if they wish to use it, however what is printed on it is monitored and must not contain election material etc.

    The issue is around the waste of tax payers money, the lack of accountability/transparency and the continuing attitude of the political class that it's not their money.
    On another level the issue is about the standards in public office and the questions that have been raised about who benefited from this 50K worth of ink.
    Finally, yes, there is obviously political points scoring at play. I've already stated that and I've stated that it is a bit hypocritical of FF to be mouthing about this, in the same way that this incident shows that SF members will waste money when it suits them.

    I have nothing per se against SF, I've spoken out about the mismanagement of public monies, the skirting of the rules and the lack of accountability in public service many times in the past.

    and it now emerges that no record is kept of paper consumption :eek:.

    Absolutely, kippy, it is about the lack of standards shown by those in public office.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Kenny just got in a swipe at Adams regarding the printer and Northern bank.

    I am watching Leader's questions here. It's like an episode of the muppets show. Really, it's that bad!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    In 2007 O' Snodaigh used 215 cartridges compared to 48 for Michael Moynihan (FF). O' Snodaigh uses the argument that the bigger parties had priority access to the printing presses in Leinster House which he did not have.

    It would be interesting if we could get Michael Moynihan's total usage of the Leinster House printing press as it may be the case that the 48 cartridges he claimed may not tell the whole story. If it can be shown that the bigger parties do not exploit this printing press then it would kill off his argument.


    The simplest explanation is always the best one. The printing presses in Leinster House are closely monitored and you cannot print election material on them, neither can you print leaflets for other constituencies (such as those where your party has no TD).

    However, taking the print cartridges out of stores and bringing them home/ to the constituency office/ SF HQ gets you away from all of those restrictions and you can do what you like with them. Incidentally he said on the radio that there were copies of the leaflets on his computer. I am sure there are tech experts that can examine his computer to verify the number of different leaflets typed up on it. Using his constituency numbers (allowing for those leaflets targeted on specific areas) it should be easy enough to find out whether he actually did use those numbers.

    More complicated explanations are also possible - his father's printing company etc. but at the very least his own explanation should be investigated and verified if true. If not true, he should go. End of.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 770 ✭✭✭viztopia


    i have a question to ask in relation to the usage of so many ink cartridges. Surley if so many cartridges were used for printing then they had to be printed on something. Should Aengus be asked to show receipts for all the paper he bought? (i heard one person on the radio say that with the amount of cartridges used it would equate to 3 million pages)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Godge wrote: »
    Incidentally he said on the radio that there were copies of the leaflets on his computer. I am sure there are tech experts that can examine his computer to verify the number of different leaflets typed up on it. Using his constituency numbers (allowing for those leaflets targeted on specific areas) it should be easy enough to find out whether he actually did use those numbers.

    More complicated explanations are also possible - his father's printing company etc. but at the very least his own explanation should be investigated and verified if true. If not true, he should go. End of.

    I completely agree. I, unlike a lot of people it seems, won't be jumping to conclusions or calling for official punishment before he is actually shown to have committed a crime though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    viztopia wrote: »
    i have a question to ask in relation to the usage of so many ink cartridges. Surley if so many cartridges were used for printing then they had to be printed on something. Should Aengus be asked to show receipts for all the paper he bought? (i heard one person on the radio say that with the amount of cartridges used it would equate to 3 million pages)

    I didn't hear the interview this morning but apparently Pearse Doherty quoted a printing company estimate of approximately 50,000 newsletters (not sure if that is 1 page printed front and back) for that amount of cartridges, so 25,000 per year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭whippet


    I would take the notion of 2-3million pages with a pinch of salt, toners will give a yield claim based on something like 5% coverage of a page.

    I'd guess that the average page printed has about 30-55% coverage so the reality was probably about 300,000 sheets.

    Anyway, what I have a problem with is the reaction of SF as an organization .. rather than accepting that this is a gross abuse of facilities their stock reaction is to criticize those who are critical of them ... the SF head who was on the 6-One news, 9 o'clock news, Primetime and VinB last night's answer to Micheal Martin was typical of SF. More or less said that SF can't be criticized by FF, you have posters on her deflecting the attention to Quinn's expenses, again more or less saying that SF can't be criticized by Labour etc ........

    We all know that the reason why the official printing facilities were not used by AO'S as what he was printing was SF propaganda (distributed at every protest march that was going) and electoral material .. hence he had to do it himself


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 349 ✭✭talkinyite


    Hmz maybe SF just have to rely more upon grassroots media (pamphlets etc.) than other parties. I don't see the big deal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    I completely agree. I, unlike a lot of people it seems, won't be jumping to conclusions or calling for official punishment before he is actually shown to have committed a crime though.


    Yes, didn't the Oireachtas committee get hammered by the Courts for not giving Callely the benefit of innocence until proven guilty? O'Snodaigh is the same as Callely so while my opinion is in both cases that their behaviour is unacceptable and that they should resign, I will also accept any subsequent judgment by a third party if that differs from my opinion.

    I didn't hear the interview this morning but apparently Pearse Doherty quoted a printing company estimate of approximately 50,000 newsletters (not sure if that is 1 page printed front and back) for that amount of cartridges, so 25,000 per year.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-fein-make-heavy-use-of-state-sponsored-toners-3034611.html

    Pearse Doherty or the Independent on how many pages he could have printed? The print expert on newstalk yesterday? Sorry Pearse, but I don't believe a word you say on this.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The SFers reactions to this are truly worthy of praise from Charlie J. Haughey himself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,069 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    I don't know why people are shocked or even surprised at this.

    Remember how during the Westminster expenses furore it came out that SF, the party that has refused to sit in parliament, was still claiming expenses for living in London.
    The Sinn Fein MPs do not take their Commons seats, but received £105,000 between them in 2007/08 for London living expenses. The party rents two flats in the UK capital from the allowance.
    So why is it a surprise now that SF would not join the gravy train in the Republic ?

    I have to say there are probably a few ffers around today wishing they had actually come up with this scam.
    Jeeze if they had maybe there could have been a new print supplier in Caherciveen or Castlebar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I completely agree. I, unlike a lot of people it seems, won't be jumping to conclusions or calling for official punishment before he is actually shown to have committed a crime though.

    And we all know that the word crime doesn't exist in the gravy train of politics. At least it doesn't exist they way we perceive it to exist.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Sully wrote: »
    Christ, its only going to get worse now with the announcement of a referendum. His printer will be on overdrive.
    Buh da wuurkin' klazzes don't be havin' interneh.

    SF: Hyprocrites of the highest order. They don't give any more of a monkeys about wasting real working people's taxes than the rest of them.


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