Electric Ireland Stops Feed In Tariff for Microgenerators

quentingargan · 23-10-2014 10:24pm #1

Up to now, Ireland had one of the worst feed in tariff regimes in the EU. Electric Ireland would buy back surplus electricity from solar photovoltaic or other microgenerators for 9c per kwhr. That is to be scrapped after 31st December.

The financial case for those of us trying to sell photovoltaic panels to domestic users falls apart if you cannot get paid for electricity exported to the grid.

Most countries have various carrots to encourage solar PV on the grid. We only have a stick. New houses must produce renewable energy to meet Part L of the building code, and solar PV is by far the cheapest way to do it, but it would be nice to get something for the surplus power.

See Electric Ireland announcement here.

Superdaddy · 24-10-2014 9:50pm

I had planned on installing solar PV on my house, connection would be 2015. Does this mean that I will get nothing for the electricity I export to the grid?

Ronan Raver77 · 24-10-2014 10:23pm

I was hoping to do the same over the next 2/3 years!!

bonzodog2 · 25-10-2014 12:30pm

Darn. How forward-thinking of them :rolleyes:

quentingargan · 25-10-2014 1:11pm

Superdaddy wrote: »

I had planned on installing solar PV on my house, connection would be 2015. Does this mean that I will get nothing for the electricity I export to the grid?

Correct. De Nada. Unless things change (and I believe they will absolutely have to. - this position is completely untenable.

The viability of the system depends on how much electricity you use during the day. You can use a device like i-Boost to run your immersion on surplus PV power. In the past I argued against this approach because it is better to do this at night using off-peak power, but the new reality imposed by Electric Ireland makes this a better option.

pawrick · 25-10-2014 1:20pm

There goes my plan for next years home improvements.

quentingargan · 25-10-2014 1:42pm

pawrick wrote: »

There goes my plan for next years home improvements.

Yes - I think the main market for solar photovoltaic panels now is going to be a minimalist box-ticking exercise for meeting Part L of the building code on new houses. Most people doing this will later fit devices to divert surplus electricity to their immersion (these are available for about €200) and the grid will not benefit at all from the electricity produced.

This is a disgrace, coming in a week when Europe is agreeing new CO2 emission targets, and Ireland is seeking agri-exemptions. Where renewable energy is concerned, we have become a one-trick pony relying exclusively on wind :mad:

gman2k · 25-10-2014 4:35pm

quentingargan wrote: »

This is a disgrace, coming in a week when Europe is agreeing new CO2 emission targets, and Ireland is seeking agri-exemptions. Where renewable energy is concerned, we have become a one-trick pony relying exclusively on wind :mad:

Q, do you know if the Green Party are aware of the upcoming change?
I had plans for a 2-3kw PV installation next year.

[Deleted User] · 26-10-2014 3:32am

freddyuk · 26-10-2014 9:16am

Politics apart the fact the financial benefit was so small actually means the downside is a lot less, in fact. In the UK the benefit was cut from 43p to 20p overnight and this caused the growing renewables industry to collapse.
The benefit of exporting surplus power to the "country" has been diminished as said. The whole point of making it viable is not to sell 18c worth of power for 9c but to use the power on site thus getting 18c worth for zero (once the capital cost has been taken into account). It means a little more planning and utilisation of some gadgets to control the onsite management but this also focuses the mindset to the benefit of the homeowner. Whole house management of power is no bad thing to reduce overall consumption and minimise waste.
Also in Ireland there is little regulation on what equipment you can or can't use so choice is widened and prices could be lower.
In UK you cannot self install your PV and get any tariff payments so if the tariffs go then anyone can install DIY as that regulation is no longer viable.
However the design of any PV system is critical to it's long term viability so getting professional advice on this aspect is very important.
So don't give up on PV - do the sums and seek professional advice from more than one supplier.

quentingargan · 26-10-2014 10:59am

It is almost impossible to get your export down to zero and use all of the power produced for useful purposes that value the premium primary energy conversion factor of electricity.

It takes 2.4Kw of oil or gas to produce 1kw of electricity. Using solar PVs to produce electricity and then using that electricity to heat water degrades that 2.4 multiplier.

Most people would agree that 9c was a tad low, but it is better to export electricity so that its premium value is utilised.

Ecologically, it is also better to export the electricity during the day when industry is using power and the grid is under load, and then if you want to heat your water with electricity, do so at night when there is often a surplus on the grid from wind.

Yes - there will be a plethora of devices sold to use your immersion on surplus power rather than export it to ESB for free, but I think that's a pity.

Superdaddy · 28-10-2014 9:52am

It makes no sense and seems a callous way to exploit those who have invested in these systems. They will still accept the electricity but they won't pay for it. So this means there is no payback for solar PV. And as more and more people install them to comply with part L they will get more free power. It's sickening!
Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

BryanF · 28-10-2014 10:35am

Superdaddy wrote: »

Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

yes

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 12:41pm

Superdaddy wrote: »

It makes no sense and seems a callous way to exploit those who have invested in these systems. They will still accept the electricity but they won't pay for it. So this means there is no payback for solar PV. And as more and more people install them to comply with part L they will get more free power. It's sickening!
Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

You can also opt for a wood pellet stove, solar thermal or a heat pump as renewable energy options. Solar thermal has been the more popular, but there is a maintenance cost, and not all households use the hot water to justify it.

There are numerous devices on offer here and in the UK for about €250 that divert all surplus power to an immersion heater, so you use as much of your solar electricity as you can, and dump the surplus to an immersion. Arguably that is a lower maintenance and lower capital cost way of heating your water anyhow. And it meets part L.

But from an environmental point of view, these devices prevent useful green electricity from being exported to the grid, which is completely daft.

I think this has to be rolled back on by Electric Ireland, and by the Minister. It would be absurd that we rely entirely on wind to produce all our renewable energy when it can be produced for a similar price by solar, within the local grid, right in the middle of Dublin for example. There needs to be Government direction on this.

Coles · 28-10-2014 3:09pm

Could someone explain this to me (Quentin? or some other clever chap).

Electric Ireland Announcement

We are happy to announce that we are extending our micro-generation pilot scheme export payment rate of 9.0 cent per kWh to our existing domestic customers until 31st December 2015. This will be our fifth year offering the pilot scheme to support our customers installing domestic micro-generators.
Please note that from 31st December 2014 the pilot scheme be closed to new customers.
ESB Networks still accept new applications to connect micro-generators to the electricity network, however it no longer offers its micro-generation support package of (i) a free installation of an import/export meter and (ii) support payment of of 10 cent/kWh. Existing customers who successfully applied on to the scheme by Feb 2012 will continue to receive support from ESB Networks until the fifth anniversary of their contract start date (ending 2014-2017).

Link to Electric Ireland website.

If I get my application in before the end of the year what will I qualify for and for how long? When will the I lose the Electric Ireland 9c rate and the additional 10c REFIT?

Thanks!

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 3:18pm

Coles wrote: »

Could someone explain this to me (Quentin? or some other clever chap).

Link to Electric Ireland website.

If I get my application in before the end of the year what will I qualify for and for how long? When will the I lose the Electric Ireland 9c rate and the additional 10c REFIT?

Thanks!

Electric Ireland originally introduced this "pilot" scheme about five years ago. At the time they offered 9c tariff plus a 10c top-up which was guaranteed for five years.

The 10c top-up was done away with in Feb. 2012. Since then, new participants in the scheme only got 9c. Old participants continued to get the 10c top-up until their five years is up.

If you join the scheme now, you get 9c. This 9c was always subject to review each year. So it is only guaranteed for the next year. None of us ever thought it would be revised downwards, but in light of the scheme being scrapped to new entries, all bets are off on whether those who are in the scheme will also find the 9c being phased out or dropped at some point in the future.

[Deleted User] · 28-10-2014 3:22pm

Seems to me they don't want the competition. I'd much prefer to see the current grid brought up to spec. to support micro grids and local generation.
For all appearances it would seem that they're invested in making demand appear to require the outlay of huge industrial turbines and a new cable network to support them and export it.

Coles · 28-10-2014 3:30pm

@Quentin, Thanks a million for taking the time to clarify.

The problem here is a political one. There is no pressure on Electric Ireland to support Microgeneration, and their competitors couldn't be bothered either. They won't do anything to support Microgeneration when they don't have to.

Just thinking out loud, but is there the opportunity to establish a co-op with an electricity supply licence to purchase from microgenerators and resell to 'Green' businesses?

Didn't Cool-Power get a licence?

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 3:45pm

Coles wrote: »

The problem here is a political one. There is no pressure on Electric Ireland to support Microgeneration, and their competitors couldn't be bothered either. They won't do anything to support Microgeneration when they don't have to.

Just thinking out loud, but is there the opportunity to establish a co-op with an electricity supply licence to purchase from microgenerators and resell to 'Green' businesses?

Didn't Cool-Power get a licence?

That's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't relish the bureaucracy of setting up an electricity supply company and getting the necessary licenses. To my mind, that would be a work-around of last resort.

You're right about Electric Ireland's competitors (even Airtricity) being bothered.

The easiest solution is to make it mandatory for all electricity providers to buy back power. ESB networks would give the meter data to any licensed operator to facilitate this, but it requires action from the Minister and/or CER to put a system in place. This is how it is done everywhere else - I don't see why Ireland should have to set up external co-operatives to run a scheme like this. The bureaucracy would require a subsidy, but also, microgenerators should be able to tap into PSO funding the same way that wind farms do.

gman2k · 28-10-2014 4:19pm

This move by EI will surely kill PV micro generation in Ireland in particular, as the average home user will not be able to utilise the electricity during the day when the sun is shining.
For me, diverting spare elec to immersion would be pointless as I already have solar water heating...
Yes I could go wind, and use more of the power when the house is occupied, but maintenance issues, towers, noise etc....
Political pressure is needed, and questions need to be put yo the minister.
Would be interesting to find out if this ending of the scheme was done under Phil Hogan's watch.

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 5:01pm

gman2k wrote: »

Would be interesting to find out if this ending of the scheme was done under Phil Hogan's watch.

This is really the remit of Alex White or Pat Rabbitte as Minister for Energy, rather than Environment. In fairness to Electric Ireland, my recollection from the introduction of the scheme was that they had expected that other providers such as Bord Gais, Airtricity etc., would follow suit. The Commissioner for Energy Regulation should oblige all electricity providers, not just Electric Ireland, to have a feed in tariff for renewable energy.

freddyuk · 29-10-2014 9:31am

quentingargan wrote: »

Electric Ireland originally introduced this "pilot" scheme about five years ago. At the time they offered 9c tariff plus a 10c top-up which was guaranteed for five years.

The 10c top-up was done away with in Feb. 2012. Since then, new participants in the scheme only got 9c. Old participants continued to get the 10c top-up until their five years is up.

If you join the scheme now, you get 9c. This 9c was always subject to review each year. So it is only guaranteed for the next year. None of us ever thought it would be revised downwards, but in light of the scheme being scrapped to new entries, all bets are off on whether those who are in the scheme will also find the 9c being phased out or dropped at some point in the future.

The "top up" of 10c was from ESB and the 9c from EI. I suspect we will get 9c until it can be quietly dropped as there are about 400 of us which is not a big number to complain (or impact the budget). Giving green energy back to the grid is fine unless we are getting screwed already and making up for inadequacies in the government which would be most peoples problem. So it comes down sadly to looking after No1. Using everything on site is economically the sensible thing to do. The surplus has to be exported to the grid unless you want to run a hybrid battery system which is currently possible but not viable based on purely economics. However you would be protected from power cuts.:)

ivorfa · 29-10-2014 9:40am

Would it be viable to run a heat pump during the day using pv or would the pay back of the system take to long if the feed in tariff were to stop

[Deleted User] · 29-10-2014 12:58pm

freddyuk wrote: »

The surplus has to be exported to the grid unless you want to run a hybrid battery system which is currently possible but not viable based on purely economics.

Running batteries is a whole nuther fish of kettles.
There's no benefit unless you cycle them, otherwise you won't have anywhere to store your daily harvest. Losing bundles to charge inefficiency.
Cycling them means maintence and supply change-over. It's the hands on approach.
Makes you energy conscious alright.

quentingargan · 30-10-2014 1:50am

ivorfa wrote: »

Would it be viable to run a heat pump during the day using pv or would the pay back of the system take to long if the feed in tariff were to stop

The danger is that the heat pump might sometimes run with the panels not producing enough, causing you to import electricity at the higher daytime rate.

Coles · 30-10-2014 7:44am

quentingargan wrote: »

The easiest solution is to make it mandatory for all electricity providers to buy back power.

I know I'm preaching to the choir on this, but what is particularly grievous is that the electricity supplied into the grid by microgenerators is obviously worth far closer to the consumer rate. The electricity is used locally by neighbouring consumers without any transmission losses, unlike the Grid electricity that it has offset. I can understand a lower rate for large remote Wind farms but to treat distributed generation (and particularly domestic solar PV) in this way is wrong. It's theft.

freddyuk · 31-10-2014 10:19am

Last year Jan 2013 -2014 I exported 1088kWh back to the grid. I was paid €200. Now my system is fully functional and tweaked that amount will be going up although I am using more on site the total installation is bigger so overall I should be getting more net export payment. I have this until 2017 when my contract runs out. I can be magnanimous and supply my local community or install a larger thermal store... mmmm.... well for now I am going to supply the local community. (but not today it's dark!):(

galwaytt · 31-10-2014 1:44pm

freddyuk wrote: »

Last year Jan 2013 -2014 I exported 1088kWh back to the grid. I was paid €200. Now my system is fully functional and tweaked that amount will be going up although I am using more on site the total installation is bigger so overall I should be getting more net export payment. I have this until 2017 when my contract runs out. I can be magnanimous and supply my local community or install a larger thermal store... mmmm.... well for now I am going to supply the local community. (but not today it's dark!):(

....buy a big buffer tank with heating element and dump all your power into that, and then heat your UFH and DHW from the buffer.

It just goes to show the whole 'Green' incentive which was at the behest of the GP, including low CO2 cars, was a complete and utter con job.

galwaytt · 31-10-2014 1:51pm

Superdaddy wrote: »

It makes no sense and seems a callous way to exploit those who have invested in these systems. They will still accept the electricity but they won't pay for it. So this means there is no payback for solar PV. And as more and more people install them to comply with part L they will get more free power. It's sickening!
Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

If I take your a latter point first: yes, build better buildings that are less reliant on energy in the first place is the most obvious answer. Then no matter what policies come & go, the physics of your fabric will be the controlling influence, not some numpty behind a desk.

As for the former, I agree it's sickening. Damn maddening actually. But it does bring up a point that was made to me about 4 weeks ago: a development of 60+ houses were being built where the Part L contribution via PV was the only method of getting the houses through Part L - such was the 'low spec' of the fabric. The builder was only interested in cost, and deigned that 2.5k per house on PV allowed him to tick that box + and 'sell' the PV feature as lowering the cost to run the home to prospective buyers.

Now that the financial cost is wiped out, will he still think the same........?? ...be interesting to see how that works out...........

gman2k · 31-10-2014 2:38pm

Article in todays Indo by Paul Melia
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/esb-ends-scheme-for-homeowners-who-want-to-sell-power-30706655.html

[Deleted User] · 31-10-2014 3:31pm

Coles wrote: »

The electricity is used locally by neighbouring consumers without any transmission losses, unlike the Grid electricity that it has offset.

Power on your roof is worth roughly twice what the steam turbines are producing.

Electric Ireland Stops Feed In Tariff for Microgenerators

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