M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

AugustusMinimus · 15-07-2015 12:47pm

neddynasty wrote: »

Could the delay on the M20 have anything to do with tolling? If the M20 is built people from Cork can travel to Dublin via Limerick and avoid the toll at Watergrasshill. Also, people usng the R513/M8 route would switch back to the M20 meaning less tolls at Watergrasshill again. Would the government encur some penalty if tolling numbers drop at Watergrasshill?

i know this is pie in the sky stuff but it just occurred to me.

You'd burn more than 2 euro of fuel going M20 M7 to get to Dublin. Way more.

Not sure about numbers taking alternative route to Limerick though.

spacetweek · 15-07-2015 1:15pm

neddynasty wrote: »

Could the delay on the M20 have anything to do with tolling? If the M20 is built people from Cork can travel to Dublin via Limerick and avoid the toll at Watergrasshill. Also, people usng the R513/M8 route would switch back to the M20 meaning less tolls at Watergrasshill again. Would the government encur some penalty if tolling numbers drop at Watergrasshill?

i know this is pie in the sky stuff but it just occurred to me.

There's no toll revenue top-up at Fermoy, but other motorways elsewhere in the country do.

odeamarcas · 04-08-2015 1:46pm

Over the past couple of years I've seen lots of articles and discussions about the proposed M20.

I travel the M8 on a regular basis, and I also travel Cork to Limerick regularly. I'm wondering why a broader picture of our infrastructure needs isn't being considered when trying to connect our major towns and cities?

Firstly, why spend hundreds and hundreds of millions building a new circa 100km motorway between Cork and Limerick when a viable alternative exists that would cost less and could in fact facilitate better connections between more than just Limerick and Cork?

The M8 travels from Cork, through Tipperary County. There are a number of points on this motorway that could be used to build a new westbound link to Limerick, which would then only be a matter of circa 50km west to Limerick.

The same junction could then be further developed to link southeastwards towards Waterford, thereby connecting the south east, south and south west.

Additionally, Cork County Council are talking about developing ring roads in Cork to divert traffic from East and South East of the City out of the city and directly onto the M8.

Surely then, utilizing our existing motorway infrastructure, namely the M8, to extend, join, and connect cities and towns, and a far less cost to the taxpayer should be considered?

KerranJast · 04-08-2015 1:51pm

odeamarcas wrote: »

Over the past couple of years I've seen lots of articles and discussions about the proposed M20.

I travel the M8 on a regular basis, and I also travel Cork to Limerick regularly. I'm wondering why a broader picture of our infrastructure needs isn't being considered when trying to connect our major towns and cities?

Firstly, why spend hundreds and hundreds of millions building a new circa 100km motorway between Cork and Limerick when a viable alternative exists that would cost less and could in fact facilitate better connections between more than just Limerick and Cork?

The M8 travels from Cork, through Tipperary County. There are a number of points on this motorway that could be used to build a new westbound link to Limerick, which would then only be a matter of circa 50km west to Limerick.

The same junction could then be further developed to link southeastwards towards Waterford, thereby connecting the south east, south and south west.

Additionally, Cork County Council are talking about developing ring roads in Cork to divert traffic from East and South East of the City out of the city and directly onto the M8.

Surely then, utilizing our existing motorway infrastructure, namely the M8, to extend, join, and connect cities and towns, and a far less cost to the taxpayer should be considered?

Not to cause offence, but this has come up time & time again in this thread.

Have a read back along the last few pages and read how it effectively makes no sense from cost p.o.v.

M8 link + various bypasses required for Mallow, Buttevant, Charleville, Adare etc is much more than proposed M20 in terms of cost.

Reputable Rog · 04-08-2015 3:24pm

odeamarcas wrote: »

Additionally, Cork County Council are talking about developing ring roads in Cork to divert traffic from East and South East of the City out of the city and directly onto the M8.

?

West and South West surely ?

tippsean · 27-08-2015 10:10am

Could it be possible that a lot of effort, land and money could be saved by considering an alternative to the 2 new roads being discussed here, namely the M20 & the M24, and with major cost savings the actual projects might start?

I travel daily with my business…mainly in Munster, and the delays in these projects are frustrating, but I’m curious about the logic behind the plans in any case.

The proposed M20 is circa 60 miles long. The proposed M24 is 35 miles long. The M24 is proposed to begin at junction 10 on the M8. The M20 begins in Cork. Why not facilitate both routes by using one west-bound (Limerick) piece of motorway from a junction further down the M8 towards Cork and serve all Limerick bound traffic from one new 35 mile stretch of motorway?

The M8 is currently under-utilised, the toll system is already in place, and to my mind there is no need to build circa 105 miles of motorway on 2 new roads when it might be possible to build only 35 miles of motorway and facilitate all traffic whilst saving hundreds of millions? I might be way off the mark, but surely it is worth consideration

Some of the additional facts worth taking into consideration are:

It is shorter to go to limerick from Cork via Mitchelstown.
It would be about 8 miles longer for traffic going from Cahir to Limerick if there was a motorway from junction 12 on the M8 near Kilbeheny.
This motorway can be tunnelled under the Galtee mountains.
The cork traffic would bypass Mitchelstown at junction 13 and all traffic could meet at the Ballylanders side and a 30 mile motorway would bring them straight to the tunnel in limerick.
Also, if they ever built the northern bypass they are talking about in Cork this would enable all Cork traffic to go straight onto the motorway network.
This would take a big percentage of traffic out of cork , it would also solve the traffic problems in Tipperary town.

touts · 27-08-2015 11:05am

tippsean wrote: »

Could it be possible that a lot of effort, land and money could be saved by considering an alternative to the 2 new roads being discussed here, namely the M20 & the M24, and with major cost savings the actual projects might start?

I travel daily with my business…mainly in Munster, and the delays in these projects are frustrating, but I’m curious about the logic behind the plans in any case.

The proposed M20 is circa 60 miles long. The proposed M24 is 35 miles long. The M24 is proposed to begin at junction 10 on the M8. The M20 begins in Cork. Why not facilitate both routes by using one west-bound (Limerick) piece of motorway from a junction further down the M8 towards Cork and serve all Limerick bound traffic from one new 35 mile stretch of motorway?

The M8 is currently under-utilised, the toll system is already in place, and to my mind there is no need to build circa 105 miles of motorway on 2 new roads when it might be possible to build only 35 miles of motorway and facilitate all traffic whilst saving hundreds of millions? I might be way off the mark, but surely it is worth consideration

Some of the additional facts worth taking into consideration are:

It is shorter to go to limerick from Cork via Mitchelstown.
It would be about 8 miles longer for traffic going from Cahir to Limerick if there was a motorway from junction 12 on the M8 near Kilbeheny.
This motorway can be tunnelled under the Galtee mountains.
The cork traffic would bypass Mitchelstown at junction 13 and all traffic could meet at the Ballylanders side and a 30 mile motorway would bring them straight to the tunnel in limerick.
Also, if they ever built the northern bypass they are talking about in Cork this would enable all Cork traffic to go straight onto the motorway network.
This would take a big percentage of traffic out of cork , it would also solve the traffic problems in Tipperary town.

It's been proposed and as someone who travels those roads quite a bit I'd think that would be a pretty good solution. HOWEVER every gombeen local Councilor and TD has convinced the people of the various towns and villages along the N20 and N24 that they deserve a motorway running near their home, just not too near that they could see or hear it but in that sweet spot that boosts their house value. So now if a compromise is suggested thousands of angry locals will protest the issue. So in reality neither route will get upgraded because its a political minefield.

spacetweek · 27-08-2015 2:48pm

tippsean wrote: »

I might be way off the mark, but surely it is worth consideration.

You are way off the mark, this comes up over and over since when looking at a map it might seem like an obvious solution but there are very many reasons not to build it this way which you'll find if you go back a page or two.

marno21 · 27-08-2015 3:21pm

Wonder what's next for this road. Lots of chatter this year but no action. I'd imagine the current M20 North and M20 South schemes will be canned and split into separate schemes, also decoupling them from the Adare bypass and Cork North Ring Road. Adare bypass will be done with Foynes scheme and who knows how the North Ring Road will end up.

Deedsie · 27-08-2015 5:24pm

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/minister-announces-10m-funding-for-road-schemes-693024.html

€4.5 Million for improvements on N20...

zulutango · 27-08-2015 5:41pm

Deedsie wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/minister-announces-10m-funding-for-road-schemes-693024.html

€4.5 Million for improvements on N20...

This is shocking political mismanagement. The minister is throwing a few quid at road improvement projects to give the impression that something is being done rather than tackling the big issue.

A motorway connecting the two cities must be built. It would have far reaching positive impact on the economy of the whole south of Ireland, not least that of both cities.

Calina · 27-08-2015 6:21pm

Deedsie wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/minister-announces-10m-funding-for-road-schemes-693024.html

€4.5 Million for improvements on N20...

As little as possible and yerrah it'll be grand.

Deedsie · 27-08-2015 6:29pm

Calina wrote: »

As little as possible and yerrah it'll be grand.

It's not even painting over the cracks...

Calina · 27-08-2015 7:34pm

Deedsie wrote: »

It's not even painting over the cracks...

This is it. Four and a half million doesn't go very far in road construction any more.

To be honest, I wonder if we had different/better regional governance structures would it be better? This is not the only transport financing decision I was awaiting with some trepidation.

Schadenfreudia · 27-08-2015 10:26pm

Deedsie wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/minister-announces-10m-funding-for-road-schemes-693024.html

€4.5 Million for improvements on N20...

Phoenix Park tunnel, Mark II ?

Election looming.....

Schadenfreudia · 27-08-2015 10:38pm

Lot of talk here about "alternative routes" to the M20.

Frankly, the M20 needs to be built as planned; the N24 is another important project - the functionality of both would be severely limited by a half-ass merger.

I'm always amused (annoyed?) by folk who oppose motorways on the basis that they can't ever be the Goldilocks solution....y'know, the M50 is a giant car park (complete bullsh1t btw) - so much traffic - they should never have built it.

The M9/M6/M2/M8 are so empty they they are not "justified".

And when M2 starts to get heavily trafficked as Ashbourne/Rathoath expand..it will be suddenly be another "car-park".

And so on...

Almost always complete tripe.

The planned roads are, with very few exceptions, totally justified looking at a 30-year time-frame,

marno21 · 28-08-2015 12:23am

Ireland's motorways are an exception in that they are future proofed. Example being the Cork South Ring, built with at grade signalised roundabouts which were totally inadequate from day 1 and needed expensive and havoc creating fixes in 2006 and 2012, and Dunkettle is still there.

The M6/M8/M9 won't need any spending for quite some time, unlike places like Killarney which now needs a second bypass as the original one is no longer fit for purpose

Conba · 28-08-2015 12:20pm

And let's not forget the Nenagh bypass that had to be upgraded to motorway very shortly after being built.

touts · 28-08-2015 1:17pm

And the Clonmel Bypass that now has so many businesses on it you're faster going through the town between 4:30pm and 6:30pm.

cgcsb · 28-08-2015 2:05pm

That's abysmal town planning by south tipp council rather than a design flaw by the NRA and contracted engineering firm.

Schadenfreudia · 28-08-2015 2:36pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's abysmal town planning by south tipp council rather than a design flaw by the NRA and contracted engineering firm.

Surely the Clonmel BP pre-dates the NRA??

Reputable Rog · 28-08-2015 6:57pm

Rumour has it that the 2+1 is being removed between Mourneabbey and Rathduff.

Schadenfreudia · 28-08-2015 9:17pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Rumour has it that the 2+1 is being removed between Mourneabbey and Rathduff.

To be replaced by?

Calina · 28-08-2015 9:36pm

Dual carriage way would be nice.

Reputable Rog · 28-08-2015 10:03pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

To be replaced by?

Back to the old set up.

Schadenfreudia · 28-08-2015 10:08pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Back to the old set up.

Yeah, the 2+1 was modelled on Swedish roads where you had 5k stretches between junctions.

Doesn't really work here.

But surely those roads are wide enough to convert into shoulder-less 2+2 roads like the Roosky bypass or section at the end of the M3?

They work extremely well.

Reputable Rog · 28-08-2015 10:19pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Yeah, the 2+1 was modelled on Swedish roads where you had 5k stretches between junctions.

Doesn't really work here.

But surely those roads are wide enough to convert into shoulder-less 2+2 roads like the Roosky bypass or section at the end of the M3?

They work extremely well.

Agricultural traffic is a major problem on the N20, combined with slow drivers who hold the whole place up.
People taking chances and just pulling out at junctions is another problem.

Schadenfreudia · 28-08-2015 10:37pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Agricultural traffic is a major problem on the N20, combined with slow drivers who hold the whole place up.
People taking chances and just pulling out at junctions is another problem.

Indeed it is not as good as a GS DC - the shoulder-less, junction-ridden 2+1s in Ireland are barely better than the old Naas Road (murderous DC with at grade junctions)

marno21 · 28-08-2015 11:51pm

2+1 was never suitable for this section of the N20 for two main reasons.

1. The traffic levels are too high and this means that a lot of overtaking has to be done on the 2 sections.
2. There are far too many junctions meaning 1+1 sections wasting lots of road space.

This going back to S2 means a lot less overtaking opportunities though. It should be wide enough for 2+2 although I'd rather any money being pumped into this be put into restarting M20 Mallow - Cork planning. M20 Mallow-Cork should be pushed first as it would be cheap as a lot of it is online. Then the rest of the M20 can be done without the massive pricetag on the current M20 schemes

AugustusMinimus · 30-08-2015 2:23pm

What an insane waste of money if they do this.

Don't think 2+2 is feasible on that stretch due to punch points and at grade junctions.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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