Kelly hits out at Irish domestic scene

wav1 · 28-01-2015 9:54pm #1

Just read on www.stickybottle.com that king Kelly seems none too impressed by the domestic scene.Seems to say that beyond Dunbar and O'Loughlin that theres nothing on the Junior scene.Far be it from me to disagree with the legend but in fairness at this time and with all his other commitments I think its fair to say that he would know feck all about what Juniors have gone through the system over the past few years.Have said it before and i'll say it again theres a great bunch of them have come through in the past while.Foley,Mc Kenna,Nulty,Fallon,Clarke etc to name but a few.They cant all be superstars but are still good riders IMO.Also appears unhappy with domestic race calendar and lenthgs of races etc.Says the ras should be in August.Seems to forget that the ras has a ''May slot'' in the UCI calendar,and cant just be stuck in anywhere that suits.Just like in his day we still rely on clubs goodwill to promote and produce a racing calendar,and its far more difficult than it was in the mid 70s when he was riding them.Its easy to criticise [and given his status he will be listened to]but maybe a little more hands on might help more.

Inquitus · 28-01-2015 10:13pm

Front loading the calendar for the Ras when 99% of the amateurs who race on our shores will never race it does seem a bit pointless.

wav1 · 28-01-2015 10:17pm

Inquitus wrote: »

Front loading the calendar for the Ras when 99% of the amateurs who race on our shores will never race it does seem a bit pointless.

That may be very well the case...But when you have guys slamming the too many races too early scenario,they seem to forget that its not a system that produces a calendar but clubs applying to run them when they want to.In other words how can you tell clubs that they must run them later or whatever.Nett result would be no race promoted.Believe this is the case.

Junior · 28-01-2015 10:31pm

It's a catch 22 with the calendar, you can't run a big race without getting big numbers, no club is going to lose their arses running a race. So with the Post Ras drop off, it's not just the Ras - you see kids school holidays, factory shut downs etc so I would say yes the Ras is resposnible for front loading the calendar but it alone isn't responsible for the drop off after it.

ednwireland · 28-01-2015 10:50pm

try running an a123race in july see when you get 15 turning up !

Lusk_Doyle · 28-01-2015 11:01pm

ednwireland wrote: »

try running an a123race in july see how many turn up when you get 15 turning up !

Have you answered your own question by mistake here?

Lusk_Doyle · 28-01-2015 11:02pm

Junior wrote: »

It's a catch 22 with the calendar, you can't run a big race without getting big numbers, no club is going to lose their arses running a race. So with the Post Ras drop off, it's not just the Ras - you see kids school holidays, factory shut downs etc so I would say yes the Ras is resposnible for front loading the calendar but it alone isn't responsible for the drop off after it.

What do you mean by factory shut downs?

Junior · 28-01-2015 11:04pm

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

What do you mean by factory shut downs?

August/Sept time you'll normally see manufacturing plants close for two weeks - so you'll get people taking their holidays at that time.

Lusk_Doyle · 28-01-2015 11:07pm

Junior wrote: »

August/Sept time you'll normally see manufacturing plants close for two weeks - so you'll get people taking their holidays at that time.

I didn't know that!

Diarmuid · 28-01-2015 11:20pm

Junior wrote: »

August/Sept time you'll normally see manufacturing plants close for two weeks - so you'll get people taking their holidays at that time.

I think the fact that lads are racing since mid-Feb and interest has begun to ebb is a bigger influence on the lack of turnout than factories closing for summer.

Lusk_Doyle · 28-01-2015 11:33pm

Diarmuid wrote: »

I think the fact that lads are racing since mid-Feb and interest has begun to ebb is a bigger influence on the lack of turnout than factories closing for summer.

Cycling is the sport of the working class! Or something like that. Kevin Myers would put it better I'm sure.

Eamonnator · 28-01-2015 11:33pm

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I didn't know that!

Nor I.

That may have been the case years ago, not any more.
Traditionally the building trade closed the first two weeks of August, when we had a building trade.

ROK ON · 28-01-2015 11:47pm

If you move the Ras to August as suggested then it will never again come to the West Coast from Cork to Donegal. Competing with the height of tourist season for hotels and B&Bs. Best of luck trying to get road closures. August is the worst month for traffic in a good deal of Kerry towns - the same towns that the Ras tries to get to every three years.
It is nuts that so much of the calendar takes places in horrible months weather wise, but August isn't the answer either.

There is a reason that the Ras and Ras mBan is in in. May and Sept. Might have more luck with Ras in Sept.

Kaisr Sose · 28-01-2015 11:57pm

It used to be in late June but was moved to May because it was an international race and son that it was not clashing (to attract good teams)

Is the issue of the clash no longer relevant? If it was a domestic race it would not matter.

ednwireland · 29-01-2015 10:22am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Have you answered your own question by mistake here?

post turbo brain fade

pedro_colnago · 29-01-2015 10:33am

Interesting topic, would agree with Sean Kelly bout when the ras is on, seems very early in the year IMO and is a big reason for the fall off in numbers after it's on. Dunno if I'd agree with what he is saying bout the juniors coming thru tho, there always seems to be a good few quality cyclist s coming thru all the time no?

29-01-2015 2:31pm

Is there a mention of a Tour of Ireland in the future to return? Maybe a swap of places timewise and the Ras go later in the year? Let the Tour attract more Pro teams and leave the RAS to the county men in August?

Hi Ho · 29-01-2015 7:31pm

Kelly seems a little out of touch. Apart from the big additional cost and lack of beds in August, there would be huge local opposition in tourism areas to road disruptions at the peak of the tourist season. His suggestion is just not feasible at all.

Junior · 29-01-2015 10:38pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

Nor I.

That may have been the case years ago, not any more.
Traditionally the building trade closed the first two weeks of August, when we had a building trade.

The Pharma company I work for have 5 plants across the country and still do have plant shut downs, and I know many more do the same.

As for Kelly being out of touch with the scene in Ireland - he rides most weeks during the winter with local groups - he is a lot more knowledgeable about who's doing what than you may give him credit for.

wav1 · 29-01-2015 11:06pm

Junior wrote: »

The Pharma company I work for have 5 plants across the country and still do have plant shut downs, and I know many more do the same.

As for Kelly being out of touch with the scene in Ireland - he rides most weeks during the winter with local groups - he is a lot more knowledgeable about who's doing what than you may give him credit for.

I still think he's way out of touch.To name one junior [who just happens to be from Carrick]is a disgrace.Thats taking nothing away from that particular chap whom I know and admire very much as a rider.2013 Nat Jun R/R Champs in Omagh had about 60 starters and any one of a dozen or so could have won it.
I would say he has no idea what running a race is all about.OK so we run a pile of 150k plus races all through the summer,but how many would ride them?In an ideal world he is probably right about running longer/harder races to prepare and develop riders,but whos going to ride them and whos going to foot the bill for the losses they will surely make.Sometimes its easier to have a go.than to do anything positive.To be honest i'd have more time for the 20 or so volunteers who helped with the training camp for the young last Sunday.Admired him as we all did as a rider but that doesn't make him always right.

Junior · 29-01-2015 11:31pm

wav1 wrote: »

I still think he's way out of touch.To name one junior [who just happens to be from Carrick]is a disgrace.Thats taking nothing away from that particular chap whom I know and admire very much as a rider.2013 Nat Jun R/R Champs in Omagh had about 60 starters and any one of a dozen or so could have won it.
I would say he has no idea what running a race is all about.OK so we run a pile of 150k plus races all through the summer,but how many would ride them?In an ideal world he is probably right about running longer/harder races to prepare and develop riders,but whos going to ride them and whos going to foot the bill for the losses they will surely make.Sometimes its easier to have a go.than to do anything positive.To be honest i'd have more time for the 20 or so volunteers who helped with the training camp for the young last Sunday.Admired him as we all did as a rider but that doesn't make him always right.

Maybe your getting a little caught up in specifics - i.e. he only named Micheal, however his message still stands on it's own merits. Take the Worlds last year - Eddie didn't have the programme that he required and ended up riding a two day - Micheal ended up going to France for a few weeks.

I'm sure if CI set up a commission to look at the Calendar and asked Kelly to take part he would, he isn't afraid of putting his shoulder to the grindstone, it's easy to say he's only complaining and sounding off, but I'm sure if someone sat down with him he'd happily try work with them - also we have to aware that at the end of the day, this is Sticky Rumour we are reading the report on - who knows what else he said.

I also think because you are involved with the Underage and Youth scene you are taking it as a personal slight from Kelly that you aren't doing good work. I don't see it as like that, I know as a whole coaches, club officers are doing more and more with less money, less riders and less involved adults, it is a hard slog. So I would say don't see it as a slight on you at all, you can only work with what's there - however as an organisation CI are failing you by not trying to rectify that situation.

Again we only have to look at as Tony Campbell has pointed out the withdrawal of the Irish Team for the Rás as further statement of intent from CI as to where they are with the development of younger riders.

eeeee · 29-01-2015 11:48pm

Can the Rás not be moved to September like Rás na mban? Hotels would be cheaper as it's out of season and there would be less tourists about? It would give a longer season no?

Beasty · 29-01-2015 11:52pm

gadetra wrote: »

Can the Rás not be moved to September like Rás na mban? Hotels would be cheaper as it's out of season and there would be less tourists about? It would give a longer season no?

I think that would seriously detract from the Ras na mBan. September is already crowded with the Tour of Britain then the Ras na mBan and finishing with the Worlds. Moving the Ras to September would be a disaster in my book

Juan More Time · 30-01-2015 12:58am

To be honest, I think Sean Kelly is bang out of order being so of critical young riders on our domestic racing scene. What Sean fails to comprehend is, times have changed and socio demographic of people who are into cycle racing in Ireland has also changed. (cycling is the new golf) and nowadays a pretty high percentage of people taking the start of road races on a Sunday afternoon tend to come from upper working class, and middle class back rounds. Lots of young people these days have college degrees, and this gives them options Sean Kelly didn't have when he left our shores in the late seventies with a burning ambition become a cycling superstar...

pedro_colnago · 30-01-2015 1:34am

Juan More Time wrote: »

To be honest, I think Sean Kelly is bang out of order being so of critical young riders on our domestic racing scene. What Sean fails to comprehend is, times have changed and socio demographic of people who are into cycle racing in Ireland has also changed. (cycling is the new golf) and nowadays a pretty high percentage of people taking the start of road races on a Sunday afternoon tend to come from upper working class, and middle class back rounds. Lots of young people these days have college degrees, and this gives them options Sean Kelly didn't enjoy when he left our shores in the late seventies with a burning ambition become a cycling superstar...

I dunno bout that, That's a fairly middle class view in my opinion. People who become pro cyclists are pretty much a different breed and it's genetics and talent rather than an option to go to college that defines their career. Sean Kelly had an option to be a builder or a farmer, he was an incredle cycling talent who went abroad and became one of the best in the world. If hadn't that talent chances are he would have been a builder or a farmer. U could argue however cycling has always been a minority sport and has always had it's hardcore followers, there's definitely more people racing/cycling than there was before and maybe theres a legitimate argument as wether there should be more coming thru the ranks with more cycling.

Juan More Time · 30-01-2015 3:56am

Mr. Colnago sir, how dare you call me middle class;)

Yes Sean Kelly possessed an incredible talent for cycling, and when a minor French aristocrat (Jean De Gribaldy) turned up in Carrick On Suir and offered him a pro cycling contract in the late seventies, he signed it immediately. I guess the hard life of a professional cyclist scrapping it out with other farmers and factory workers sons on the rough roads of France and Belgium was preferable to scratching a living on the small family farm. Or indeed taking the boat to England and slaving his guts out on a dirty and dangerous building site.

Yes traditionally cycling was always a working class sport much like boxing still is. But show up at any road race nowadays, and you can see plenty of brand new BMW's, Lexus, and Mercedes cars with equally expensive bikes hanging off roof/boot racks. These cars are invariably driven by the well scrubbed middle classes who tend to speak with pseudo D4 accents regardless of where they come from.. I just can't see any of these middle class folks or their children having the will or the inclination to scrapping it out on the cobbles of Paris- Roubaix or Tour of Flanders even if they did posses the required athletic ability... With a degree from Trinity or UCC and a lucrative career in the civil service, medical profession , or in finance, why the hell would you want to risk your neck ? This is why the racing has changed....

.

Harrybelafonte · 30-01-2015 8:51am

Juan More Time wrote: »

Mr. Colnago sir, how dare you call me middle class;)

Yes Sean Kelly possessed an incredible talent for cycling, and when a minor French aristocrat (Jean De Gribaldy) turned up in Carrick On Suir and offered him a pro cycling contract in the late seventies, he signed it immediately. I guess the hard life of a professional cyclist scrapping it out with other farmers and factory workers sons on the rough roads of France and Belgium was preferable to scratching a living on the small family farm. Or indeed taking the boat to England and slaving his guts out on a dirty and dangerous building site.

Yes traditionally cycling was always a working class sport much like boxing still is. But show up at any road race nowadays, and you can see plenty of brand new BMW's, Lexus, and Mercedes cars with equally expensive bikes hanging off roof/boot racks. These cars are invariably driven by the well scrubbed middle classes who tend to speak with pseudo D4 accents regardless of where they come from.. I just can't see any of these middle class folks or their children having the will or the inclination to scrapping it out on the cobbles of Paris- Roubaix or Tour of Flanders even if they did posses the required athletic ability... With a degree from Trinity or UCC and a lucrative career in the civil service, medical profession , or in finance, why the hell would you want to risk your neck ? This is why the racing has changed....

.

This is total bullsh't. Yes, there are a few such people at races, and there always was, but the vast majority are not wealthy in the way you imply. Jesus, we all flipped it when they increased reg fees by a few quid. When I go to races, I end up bring three other people as they've no other way toget to races and I need them to help pay for the fuel used getting there. Keep your "class war" mentality out of it, it's better applied to other elements in society. Anybody with wealth shows up to what is pretty much a level playing field in their Cat. It's like death, money doesn't leave you any better off.

Have you just started a "Simplistic Socialism for Beginners" course somewhere?

Also, cycling is not the new golf, that's triathlon.

pedro_colnago · 30-01-2015 8:51am

Juan More Time wrote: »

Mr. Colnago sir, how dare you call me middle class;)

Yes Sean Kelly possessed an incredible talent for cycling, and when a minor French aristocrat (Jean De Gribaldy) turned up in Carrick On Suir and offered him a pro cycling contract in the late seventies, he signed it immediately. I guess the hard life of a professional cyclist scrapping it out with other farmers and factory workers sons on the rough roads of France and Belgium was preferable to scratching a living on the small family farm. Or indeed taking the boat to England and slaving his guts out on a dirty and dangerous building site.

Yes traditionally cycling was always a working class sport much like boxing still is. But show up at any road race nowadays, and you can see plenty of brand new BMW's, Lexus, and Mercedes cars with equally expensive bikes hanging off roof/boot racks. These cars are invariably driven by the well scrubbed middle classes who tend to speak with pseudo D4 accents regardless of where they come from.. I just can't see any of these middle class folks or their children having the will or the inclination to scrapping it out on the cobbles of Paris- Roubaix or Tour of Flanders even if they did posses the required athletic ability... With a degree from Trinity or UCC and a lucrative career in the civil service, medical profession , or in finance, why the hell would you want to risk your neck ? This is why the racing has changed....

.

I would not agree at all that its a working class based sport, its a minority sport historically in ireland and the cycling community has been close knit and often been clustered around cycling families, etc etcnot nevessarily working middle or upper class. It is and always has been looked on as being an odd sport and expensive to those who aren't involved in it. ( the "look at yer man in the Lycra with the shaved legs on his lightweight bike that costs thousands" brigade.. )
As regards the idea that people these days would rather take the college or handy job i reckon the vast vast majority of amateur racers who spent 500+ hours a year training on a bike would take the opportunity to be a pro if they were given the option. (Junior to vet)Talent is the difference tho not whether they will take the handy option and get a real job or not. That's always been the way.
As for the generalisations you make about the type of people who race, that's nonsense, it's an expensive pastime for any amateur racing or sportive cyclist and that might reflect the standard of bikes they turn up with. But other than that they come from all walks of life

wexandproud · 30-01-2015 9:08am

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

This is total bullsh't. Yes, there are a few such people at races, and there always was, but the vast majority are not wealthy in the way you imply. Jesus, we all flipped it when they increased reg fees by a few quid. When I go to races, I end up bring three other people as they've no other way toget to races and I need them to help pay for the fuel used getting there. Keep your "class war" mentality out of it, it's better applied to other elements in society. Anybody with wealth shows up to what is pretty much a level playing field in their Cat. It's like death, money doesn't leave you any better off.

Have you just started a "Simplistic Socialism for Beginners" course somewhere?

Also, cycling is not the new golf, that's triathlon.

correct,, most of the guys down here in south east always try and car pool to keep cost down , and when you get to a race , sure there are a few expensive cars that stand out but that is the same in any car park or any sport around the country . just because a guy drives a big car does not always mean he is wealth, it more likely means he is up to his neck in debt . As for the guy with the fancy bike , how often have you seen a top of the range bike, several gadgets on the bars spewing out performance and course related info and the minute the pressure is on your man is out the back with alarms bleeping

Brian? · 30-01-2015 9:18am

Cycling is a working class sport? Could have fooled me. I wore Lycra in the 80s and 90s in Tallaght, it was not well recieved by the neighbours.

Cycling very much a family sport, in my experience . My Da raced as a young fella, so myself and my brother raced as young fellas. My 2 sons, even though they're 2 and 4, have 2 bikes each in the hope they'll race when they get older. Kimmages, McQuaids, Roches all had multiple cyclists in their families.

It's one thing that surprised me in the last few years, I meet so many people who cycle now but don't have any heritage associated with the sport. Sometimes I even have to explain who Eddie Merckx is, to guys on 4 grand carbon bikes! They're mainly sportive cyclists, hopefully their kids will race.

That point rambled a bit, but essentially cyclingn has nothing to do with class.

Brian? · 30-01-2015 9:19am

Also, not to get too Monty Python, we used to cycle to races and cycle home again.

All we had at the feed station was a handful of hot gravel etc....

Kelly hits out at Irish domestic scene

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