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Abortion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    well we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I just find it kinda funny you would get upset over a slight and still think its okay to use disgusting terms that could be very upsetting.
    "Disgusting terms" says quite a lot considering they're perfectly accurate terms.
    I think the women who posted probably did to debunk the myth that women have abortions cause they hate kids or can't be bothered having children.
    A myth that no one has attempted to propagate on this thread.
    You can and could have made your points without being cruel but the fact you choose not too kinda says it all really. I think most people reading this have the measure of you.
    "Cruel"? When was I ever cruel to anyone? I'm gobsmacked at how you think i'm being cruel to anyone.
    Yeah right, if you say so. You also at one point declared one post was going to be your "final post" and in another you said you were "bringing it to a close" but nice attempt to twist it to try and make it look like you did not return to a thread you claimed you would not be returning to. Nozz's rule strikes again. But pretend whatever you like.
    1 - 0 : Nozz to PAMG. Game set and match.
    You win in the pettiness competition, happy?
    My point exactly!!!! Within the context the definition is unclear so instead you go to all the definitions OUTSIDE that context and cherry pick the one that most fits the conclusions you have already decided on. It is confirmation bias. You do the same for example when... from all the indispensable unskipable stages in fetal development... you arbitrary picked one and declared it the "most important" based on nothing but the fact it suited your position on the abortion debate.
    I'm not the first or only person who has said that gastrulation is the most important stage in an individual's life. In fact, there's quite a number of people who've said it. In particular, the well known developmental biologist, Lewis Wolpert.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    I'm not the first or only person who has said that gastrulation is the most important stage in an individual's life. In fact, there's quite a number of people who've said it. In particular, the well known developmental biologist, Lewis Wolpert.

    Who interestingly does not support your general position at all.
    I've spoken to these eggs many times and they make it quite clear ... they are not a human being.

    http://livinglifewithoutanet.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/a-fertilized-egg-is-not-a-human-being/
    “I’m not against religion,” he explains. “Invoking God to explain evolution and the origin of life doesn’t help one iota, but it makes people feel better. That’s the point, you see? I’m only against religion when it starts to interfere with other things, like telling people they can’t use contraception, or banning abortion, or stopping euthanasia. These bloody religious nuts in Parliament! Nobody else, other than the Catholic Church, ever went around saying a fertilised egg was a human being, and now people are starting to believe it. Authority plays a big role in our beliefs.”

    Source: http://www.scienceinschool.org/print/433


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 dogyworld1


    OP got a baby on the way?
    you evil ****


  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭shannie


    I think its absolutely disgusting. I'll be honest and say I never really had an opinion on it until I seen a video about it and it is just terrible what they do to them poor babies, everyone has the right to live and people should be allowed have an abortion just because they 'forgot' to use contraception or it didn't work. Obviously in some terrible cases, like rape, abortion may be a last resort but other than that I really think its terrible.. then again.. who am I too say?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 dogyworld1


    shannie wrote: »
    I think its absolutely disgusting. I'll be honest and say I never really had an opinion on it until I seen a video about it and it is just terrible what they do to them poor babies, everyone has the right to live and people should be allowed have an abortion just because they 'forgot' to use contraception or it didn't work. Obviously in some terrible cases, like rape, abortion may be a last resort but other than that I really think its terrible.. then again.. who am I too say?

    So your telling me if your misses
    got raped
    by a black fella
    and fell pregnant
    youd keep the baby?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Nah, not on demand, otherwise you'd have some women having abortions every couple of months, probably paid for by the taxpayer via a medical card but also abortion of a fairly mature unborn child is cruel and should only be carried out as a last resort.

    I think if a child in the womb gets to a couple months, they've done pretty well, and should be allowed to be born and at least experience some form of life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    dogyworld1 wrote: »
    So your telling me if your misses
    got raped
    by a black fella
    and fell pregnant
    youd keep the baby?

    That's racist! :eek:

    Would it be ok if she was raped by a white fella?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    1 - 0 : Nozz to PAMG. Game set and match.
    You win in the pettiness competition, happy?

    I have no wish to partake in such a competition. If you are in it you are in it alone, but thanks for telling us that is what you are at. I however am in the "Establishing the truth" competition and if I see a blatant falsehood I will call people on it. This is a good thing to do. Firstly it keeps the threads truthful. Secondly it highlights to other people on the thread who is being dishonest and who to watch out for.
    I'm not the first or only person who has said that gastrulation is the most important stage in an individual's life.

    Argumentum ad populum? Being wrong doesn't become less wrong just because other people were wrong too. The fact is there are a whole series of events and steps in foetal development that have to happen for a child to be born. Picking one of them and declaring it the "most important" is just a baseless nonsense. It would be like building a tower of bricks in a single column and then declaring the 5th one from the bottom the most important in holding the structure up when ripping out the 3rd, 4th, 6th or 7th will just as successfully bring the whole thing crashing down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    shannie wrote: »
    I think its absolutely disgusting. I'll be honest and say I never really had an opinion on it until I seen a video about it and it is just terrible what they do to them poor babies

    You are being fooled by disturbing imagery. Just because the development has reached a point where it has started to look human shaped does not make the procedure and more cruel than if it was not baby shaped at all. Up to a certain stage in development there is no "person" in there, no "personhood", no mind, no conciousness, no subjective experience, no pain. Nothing. It has as much moral concerns as a corpse.

    But the anti abortion camp do not want you to know that so rather than present the facts they present disturbing imagery instead and hope that your emotions will fill in the gaps where facts and reason should be. And you clearly have bitten the bait.

    I can assure you, by- pass surgery in the heart is also a messy and horrific thing to see too. The fact it looks unpleasant says nothing about the morality of it. So let us not pretend the same is not true here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    I came across this chart on another forum and though a good bit of it is specific to the U.S. I think some of the points are still applicable generally - specifically the ones about whether people believe that abortion is allowable in cases like rape or incest:

    uEnOr.jpg


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I came across this chart on another forum and though a good bit of it is specific to the U.S. I think some of the points are still applicable generally - specifically the ones about whether people believe that abortion is allowable in cases like rape or incest:

    uEnOr.jpg

    That chart is both confusing and very illogical. Its just deliberately mudding the waters by bringing up abortion clinic bombing. That kind of crime is so so rare and unrepresentative its irrelevant to the entire debate. You will be hard-pressed to meet someone who sees abortion as murder and agrees with that. It also spuriously talks about prosecuting mothers who opt for abortions. What democratic jurisdiction does that? Do even many autocratic countries do that? There many pro-life nations worldwide (~7 in Europe). Which implements this? Its looks like a propaganda-heavy caricature of the pro-life movement. If I had the time I would dismiss each suggestion on moral grounds also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    robp wrote: »
    That chart is both confusing and very illogical. Its just deliberately mudding the waters by bringing up abortion clinic bombing. That kind of crime is so so rare and unrepresentative its irrelevant to the entire debate. You will be hard-pressed to meet someone who sees abortion as murder and agrees with that. It also spuriously talks about prosecuting mothers who opt for abortions. What democratic jurisdiction does that? Do even many autocratic countries do that? There many pro-life nations worldwide (~7 in Europe). Which implements this? Its looks like a propaganda-heavy caricature of the pro-life movement. If I had the time I would dismiss each suggestion on moral grounds also.

    It's intended to enquire into the attitudes held by individuals, not states, i.e. if you believe that a fetus 100% equal to a child then you should logically believe that a woman who has an abortion is a guilty of a crime as a woman who kills her baby. If you do not, then what exactly is the distinction? (and by "you" I don't mean you specifically robp)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Rabidlamb


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/more-irish-women-having-late-abortions-3123731.html

    By Eilish O'Regan Health Correspondent

    Wednesday May 30 2012

    THE number of Irish women who were five or more months pregnant when they had an abortion in the UK increased last year.

    The numbers of late pregnancy abortions rose to 114, compared with 109 in 2010, it emerged yesterday. The upper legal limit is 24 weeks.

    Overall, the number of women from the Republic terminating pregnancies in the UK fell for the 10th year in a row, down marginally from 4,202 in 2010 to 4,149.

    There were 791 abortions among women over the age of 35 years and 257 of these were by women aged 40 or over. Some 148 teenagers under the age of 17 years had an abortion.

    Dr Stephanie O'Keeffe, head of the HSE's Crisis Pregnancy programme, said the Netherlands was the only other jurisdiction to which women here were travelling for abortion procedures in significant numbers.

    The Pro-Life Campaign welcomed the fall in numbers travelling to Britain for abortions.

    I wonder do these figures indicate a true fall in numbers seeking abortions or are expectant mothers traveling further afield to have the procedure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    I can't see why women would travel further tbh...
    Maybe it's got something to do with the OTC availability of the morning after-pill recently?
    I know it's a longshot, but maybe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    Should it be available here?

    Regardless of circumstance?

    yes... imagine how much savings we could make on child benefits and single mothers allowances


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,048 ✭✭✭✭Snowie


    Should it be available here?

    Regardless of circumstance?



    Who am I to judge on some one or two peoples life circumstances to wish'sIve no opinion as it doesn't affect me...


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    You are being fooled by disturbing imagery.

    Everyone's fooled but you, wise one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Rabidlamb wrote: »
    I wonder do these figures indicate a true fall in numbers seeking abortions or are expectant mothers traveling further afield to have the procedure.

    It would be hard to link those figures to anything without much more data. Correlation does not imply causation and you could make up just about anything based on the correlation. For example I could make this up:

    Given the figures identifying as catholic has dropped, as has mass attendance we can assume a drop of in interest in Catholic teaching. This should correlate with a rise in the use of contraception which catholic teaching is against. This in turn explains the reduction in unplanned pregnancy and hence in women from the Republic seeking abortion.

    All very plausible. It might even be true and I would be far from surprised if it is. Have I a shred of evidence except for correlating the drop in abortions with the drop in mass attendance to back it up however? No. Not a jot. It would need more research and data such as information on any changes in condom sales in the last 10 years.

    It is heartening though. Pro choice campaigners are not really "pro abortion". We want there to be a choice and abortion to be available but we also want to reduce the number of people who require it at all. So if the numbers are steadily dropping as the report suggests then this can only be a good thing that all of us on BOTH sides of the abortion debate can be happy to see.

    It says at the end that the "Pro life campaign welcomed" the numbers? I rather warrant the Pro Choice campaign do too and it is poor form of the article to miss that. The "Pro Life" campaign are all too good at making it seem like the Pro Choice side are actually hoping for increases in such figures. The Pro Choice side need to be MUCH more active in letting people know that we want a reduction in the numbers of abortions too. Terms like "Pro Abortion" used instead of "Pro Choice" are designed specifically to paint the opposite picture.
    prinz wrote: »
    Everyone's fooled but you, wise one.

    As a better man than I once said, if I see further than most it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants.

    Fatuous comments like yours however do not change the fact that using disturbing imagery rather than reason and argument is often the recourse of those without a cogent argument to actually make.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Sauve wrote: »
    I can't see why women would travel further tbh...
    Maybe it's got something to do with the OTC availability of the morning after-pill recently?
    I know it's a longshot, but maybe.
    At a guess I would say that it's down to a changing age profile of women in Ireland and is not unrelated to the massive increase in births in the country. In short, there are fewer younger women having unplanned pregnancies and more older women having more planned pregnancies.

    I would also say to a certain extent that an older woman with an unplanned pregnancy is probably more likely to proceed with it than a younger woman. So as the population gets older, the rate of abortions drops.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Yeah that makes sense.
    Teenagers today have so much more information and methods of contraception available to them. There really is no excuse for an unplanned pregnancy imo.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,853 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Sauve wrote: »
    Yeah that makes sense.
    Teenagers today have so much more information and methods of contraception available to them. There really is no excuse for an unplanned pregnancy imo.

    Aside from contraception not being 100% effective? I know people who've gotten pregnant while using both condoms and birth control pills. And sex education in schools still seems to consist of "don't do it".


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Stark wrote: »

    Aside from contraception not being 100% effective? I know people who've gotten pregnant while using both condoms and birth control pills. And sex education in schools still seems to consist of "don't do it".

    Absolutely, but the instance of this happening where the contraception has not only been used, but been used correctly is extremely low. Both methods offer a success rate of over 95% if used correcty, so using both, it is more than highly unlikely that pregnancy will occur.
    Of course it can happen and I'm not by any means saying your friends are lying, but I would suggest that generally, a lot of these claims are fabricated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,853 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    The odds aren't that low.

    95% effective means a 1 in 20 chance of the birth control method failing. Even by doubling up, your risks are still 1 in 400. Take a few sexually active couples and with those odds, chances are one couple will be pregnant within a year.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sauve wrote: »
    I can't see why women would travel further tbh...
    Maybe it's got something to do with the OTC availability of the morning after-pill recently?
    I know it's a longshot, but maybe.

    I'd say it's a variety of reasons.

    I would guess that:
    - the proportion of women travelling further is increasing
    - MAP availability in pharmacies, and at cheaper prices than going to a doctor
    - awareness of abortion
    - awareness of charities and helplines
    - contraceptive education
    - education in general
    are all contributing towards a drop in the rate of abortions but mainly as a result of a drop in the rate of unwanted pregnancies. So a win for both pro-lifers and pro-choicers.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    Or are people not supplying truthful information when asked?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    Sauve wrote: »
    Absolutely, but the instance of this happening where the contraception has not only been used, but been used correctly is extremely low. Both methods offer a success rate of over 95% if used correcty, so using both, it is more than highly unlikely that pregnancy will occur.
    Of course it can happen and I'm not by any means saying your friends are lying, but I would suggest that generally, a lot of these claims are fabricated.
    As has already been pointed out, even with low odds, it can and does happen. That isn't relevant though. It is only muddying the waters. A person should have the legal right to abortion in Ireland, and not have to go to another country. Over 4400 Irish women travelled to England and Wales for abortion in 2010. Is the money they are spending better spent abroad on abortions than it might actually staying in the country? Economically, it is stupid. Those who can not afford this trip, then may be inclined to go with a coat hanger approach.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Or that those figures are only from BPAS and only are women who give an irish address, if they give a UK address then it's not counted. Also the Uk is not the only option so women are traveling to Holland, Belgium and Sweden, some for fear of meeting people they might know in the UK and those countries don't report back the number of irish women attending clinics for abortions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭Mr Bump


    No it should not be legal just like that, circumstances should be taken into account in some cases
    Should it be available here?

    Regardless of circumstance?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    Is the money they are spending better spent abroad on abortions than it might actually staying in the country? Economically, it is stupid..

    Yay, we could start making soap too.
    Pushtrak wrote: »
    Those who can not afford this trip, then may be inclined to go with a coat hanger approach.

    You can't have it every which way. On the one hand people are saying the numbers have dropped because the women have gone further afield, in the next breath it's because they can't afford to get to the UK...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Stark wrote: »
    The odds aren't that low.

    95% effective means a 1 in 20 chance of the birth control method failing. Even by doubling up, your risks are still 1 in 400. Take a few sexually active couples and with those odds, chances are one couple will be pregnant within a year.

    I know I'm just nit-picking now but take into account the fact that the average woman is only highly fertile for a certain part of the month. I was also being overly cautious with the 95%- it's actually closer to 99%.
    I know what you're saying alright, contraception can fail, but the numbers don't tally with the amount of people who claim to have been using both methods.


This discussion has been closed.
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