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At what point did Socialists become something to rant about?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    tony007 wrote: »
    You were talking about the Soviet Union. Look at the policies there. The policies there decreased worker control over production. Therefore, not socialist.

    Are Irish communists socialists?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭pawnacide


    I never said we need to scrap the financial system for a capitalist one. I said the current financial system is destroying world economies, which if you don't believe you are blind or like to hold blind faith in the government and the financial system.

    What should be replaced in place of the current financial system is a whole other topic and it has nothing to do with capitalism.
    In short the financial system needs to be replaced with an interest free system where the amount of money circulating in the economy is very tightly regulated (gold backed currency helps in tight regulation but its not necessary). But its a very large topic as its a whole different school of economics to the current keynesian and debt-interest based system. Two lines cannot explain it, either watch that documentary or look it up somewhere else. I'm not going to discuss it here because its a very big topic in itself.

    Oh great so by you're reckoning we could have a kinda Socialist Capitalist system .. now you're just babbling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    the current keynesian and debt-interest based system.

    The what now? Hasn't Keynsian economics been largely sidelined in the past quarter century by monetarist and neoclassical approaches? Speaking of which ...
    K-9 wrote: »
    What do you mean by Universities teaching them these immoral ways? Most of the criticism I see of Universities is that they are often too left wing leaning!

    Excellent piece here on the intellectual bankruptcy of professional economists, and the reasons for this:

    http://www.iasc-culture.org/publications_article_2010_Summer_mirowski.php


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭tony007


    czx wrote: »
    Are Irish communists socialists?

    If they want to further socialist policies, then yes, I suppose they are. What matters is what happens when they get into power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    benway wrote: »
    No corporation has morals and ethics. They're exclusively driven by the profit motive, their only responsibility is to their shareholders. Not saying this as a criticism, just stating facts.
    That is very very naive thinking.
    Also makes you a hypocrite because you buy capitalist goods and hence you are supporting these corporations.
    Examples or gtfo.
    There are too many.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-governmental_organizations_by_country
    And the fact that obscene amounts of money was put into these same manufacturers for the purposes of building military materiel during the second world war had nothing to do with these advances. Oh no.

    Blinkers, son. Ron Paul is a nutjob as well, btw.
    2nd world war was more than 60 years ago!
    Car manufacturers have come a long long way since then.
    A lot of the advances have comes from market competition and motor racing (which again is competition). Its because of Formula 1 that you have rear view mirrors, seat belts, crumple zones in cars. Also because of Formula 1 there have been made many improvement in carbon-fiber technology for building or using in cars.

    I don't care what you believe about Ron Paul. He makes sense to me and many people around the world.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    tony007 wrote: »
    If they want to further socialist policies, then yes, I suppose they are. What matters is what happens when they get into power.

    Communists don't have the best track record to be honest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭pawnacide


    tony007 wrote: »
    If they want to further socialist policies, then yes, I suppose they are. What matters is what happens when they get into power.

    ah that old chestnut .. maybe if they were in power the banking system would collapse .. oh wait it already did. Maybe taxes would rise .. oops that happened too with far worse to come. Maybe those damned lefties would bankrupt the country and then the IMF would need to bail us out .. guess what ?

    Please stop with you're right wing scare tactics and face the reality .. the very people you want in power have indebted this nation and it's people for generations to come. Their interests are in protecting the status quo. I for one am willing to give the left a go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭tony007


    czx wrote: »
    Communists don't have the best track record to be honest.

    Certain ones don't. Same with capitalists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭tony007


    pawnacide wrote: »
    ah that old chestnut .. maybe if they were in power the banking system would collapse .. oh wait it already did. Maybe taxes would rise .. oops that happened too with far worse to come. Maybe those damned lefties would bankrupt the country and then the IMF would need to bail us out .. guess what ?

    Please stop with you're right wing scare tactics and face the reality .. the very people you want in power have indebted this nation and it's people for generations to come. Their interests are in protecting the status quo. I for one am willing to give the left a go.

    What are you talking about?! I'm on your side!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭pawnacide


    I don't care what you believe about Ron Paul. He makes sense to me and many people around the world.

    Maybe you should start a cult.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    That is very very naive thinking.
    Also makes you a hypocrite because you buy capitalist goods and hence you are supporting these corporations.

    It's just a fact. Read up on your company law ... don't think it's me that's being naive. And goods aren't "capitalist" or "socialist". Anyway, the point isn't to attack the corporate world, or the capitalist system but to recognise its weaknesses and look to improve it. I'm a fairly lukewarm social democrat at best, but by the standards of many, it appears that makes me a raging pinko, the next thing to Mao Tse Tung.

    While I'm at it, I think the solution is to include legally enforceable social responsibilities in the Memo and Arts of companies, but that's for another day.

    You'll need to do better than throwing out a list of NGOs. I've worked in the NGO / Civil Society sector, here and abroad. They generally have an ulterior motive, and quite often do more harm than good. Give me a robust state any day of the week.
    2nd world war was more than 60 years ago!

    In the past century, didn't you say?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭pawnacide


    tony007 wrote: »
    What are you talking about?! I'm on your side!!

    Bummer, Sry .. probably should've read your other posts first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    tony007 wrote: »
    Certain ones don't. Same with capitalists.

    Any good communists for me?


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭tony007


    czx wrote: »
    Any good communists for me?

    I supposeJoe Higgins is very principled. He's probably the most prominent one in Ireland you can trust most.


  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    tony007 wrote: »
    I supposeJoe Higgins is very principled. He's probably the most prominent one in Ireland you can trust most.

    if only he was a country. Joe Higgins is a communist


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭tony007


    czx wrote: »
    if only he was a country. Joe Higgins is a communist

    You asked me for a communist....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow



    Weren't you supposed to be proving how non-governmental aid was better than governmental aid? And not just showing a link to examples of non-governmental aid. I'd be interested in seeing statistical proof of how non-governmental aid is better than governmental aid.
    I don't care what you believe about Ron Paul. He makes sense to me and many people around the world.

    He's not doing so well, even when just competing within the Republican primaries, in a country that at least likes to believe its own propoganda that it's a good example of a free-market country. Initially reading about him, I thought that at least he sticks by his principles, but the primaries showed himself to be hypocritical regarding his 'no-government' attitude when it came to abortion ("except with regards to abortion!"). Interesting how you criticise people for being hypocrites throughout this thread and seem to be unaware/ignore Paul's own failings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    He's not doing so well, even when just competing within the Republican primaries, in a country that at least likes to believe its own propoganda that it's a good example of a free-market country. Initially reading about him, I thought that at least he sticks by his principles, but the primaries showed himself to be hypocritical regarding his 'no-government' attitude when it came to abortion ("except with regards to abortion!"). Interesting how you criticise people for being hypocrites throughout this thread and seem to be unaware/ignore Paul's own failings.

    With Paul, intrusive government is a okay at the state level, the federal government is evil, though.. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    RichieC wrote: »
    With Paul, intrusive government is a okay at the state level, the federal government is evil, though.. :rolleyes:

    Ahh, fair enough so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Again, greed has always been considered a great sin in almost every religion. I'm not saying we all should become religious but the way greed had been dealt with throughout history has been through religion and morality. If people lack that, there will be nothing stopping people from letting their greed run wild and they'll end up destroying the society. People need to develop moral conscience. I said in my previous post, that happens through good parenting.
    Lately we all want the government to take over the responsibility of our parents and expect the schools to teach our kids what good or bad is rather than it being the parents responsibility to teach the kids what morality is.

    Also 99.99999% of the people are intrinsically good. Yes people have intrinsic traits of greed but people also have intrinsic trails that makes them share and contribute to others.

    Well, I don't exactly see Bill Gates stopping competition. It will always be very difficult to compete against an established product which people have come to trust over the years. Yet Apple is a competitor to Microsoft which is doing pretty good. Linux is always there and there are new ones like ubuntu, joli cloud, google os etc.
    Again you target your product to the audience. Most of the world's population thinks all computers look either like windows or Mac hence they will not like to work with anything other than what they recognise.

    But then in phones HTC has been a relatively new brand in the market and it has been doing really well. Nokia used to be the leader in cell phones market a decade now, now people rarely buy a Nokia because the free market has allowed other manufacturers to take over that spot by producing better products.

    As another poster pointed out Microsoft did abuse their position and as for Apple and Linux, small shares of the market really.

    I see your point about morals but it seems people who don't have morals are attracted to areas like stock trading and being ruthless is seen as a positive trait, something to be admired. Your ideas all seem wishy washy to me and I really don't see why you've such faith in Paul to get towards those. The notions are just too vague and lacking any specifics to have a meaningful discussion.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    tony007 wrote: »
    You asked me for a communist....

    is he a socialist communist or soviet communist?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Dudess wrote: »
    It's become fashionable among youngsters to balk at social equality and to be a greedy, selfish, heartless ****.
    You call it greedy, I call it the sharing of misery amongst the people. Socialism is failure, ignorance, envy and misery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    We live in an enlightened age of information, people have seen how mass socialism creates a bloated oublic sector, bails out banks, raises taxes , keeps everyone poor and allows mass immigration all in the name of 'equality' so its about time people stood up and looked for a better system , like capitalism.
    It destroys traditional values in society. It promotes mass immigration. It is pro liberalism. It promotes shared misery amongst the working class people. It devalues the aspirations of people wanting to better themselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Channel Zero


    benway wrote: »
    Excellent piece here on the intellectual bankruptcy of professional economists, and the reasons for this:

    http://www.iasc-culture.org/publications_article_2010_Summer_mirowski.php

    More info here related to above and to OP:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/27/ayn-rand-the-tea-partys-miscast-matriarch/


    af fragile
    Am still waiting for that link i asked you for where you said Paul talks about "equality for everyone".
    Fact is he doesn't advocate economic equality at all does he? He wants freedom alright, but not the nice shiny happy freedom some people imagine, more the dog-eat-dog **** you i'm alright jack type freedom. Freedom for the wealthy to completely disregard the poorer sections of society.

    You also said "All governments do is work on their own interests and help only those people who benefit them, ignoring those who don't.

    This is rubbish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    The Ayn Rand Institute co-hosted an “Intellectual Ammunition Strategy Workshop,” a day before the 9/12 Tea Party extravaganza in Washington, D.C. in September 2009

    How sinister is that? An unholy alliance of the Randroids with God bothering Tea Party wackos, doing the bidding of billionaires like the Koch brothers, with Glenn fckin' Beck as their court jester? Might go some way towards explaining why unreasoning, lobotomised hostility towards "socialism" is on the rise, alright.

    Dear libertarians,

    Do you really want to be associated with these people? Really?

    Kthnxbai,
    B


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,328 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    All through the Cold War Radio Free Europe (for the Eastern bloc) and Radio Liberty (for the USSR) broadcast on shortwave. American funded but they were only radio stations. What happened. The Socialist countries spent millions of dollars building high powered transmitters to jam the broadcasts. In the process ruining the shortwave bands for large amounts of the time for listeners such as me. This is the Socialist attitude to free speech. Meanwhile Radio Moscow and all the broadcasters from the East were allowed to broadcast free of jamming into the capitalist countries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    The dirty commie socialists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭nice_very


    reason number: ?? - when Ireland and spain elected fascist parties to govt


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Dudess wrote: »
    It's become fashionable among youngsters to balk at social equality and to be a greedy, selfish, heartless ****.

    Only after they get their dole payments or student grants ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    We live in an enlightened age of information, people have seen how mass socialism creates a bloated oublic sector, bails out banks, raises taxes , keeps everyone poor and allows mass immigration all in the name of 'equality' so its about time people stood up and looked for a better system , like capitalism.
    It destroys traditional values in society. It promotes mass immigration. It is pro liberalism. It promotes shared misery amongst the working class people. It devalues the aspirations of people wanting to better themselves.
    Oh noez liberalism! ****ing lol.


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