[Sauve]

If we take our group away for a camp/overnight, we will always let them know where/when Mass is on, and if anybody wants to go they should let us know.
But it has never come up as an issue, and we have a multi-denominational group of kids.
Because of this, we don't bring up religion or speak about it, we don't want to offend a child who may not be Christian.

[glenn3ie]

Originally Posted by Banbh

Sparkles, you say that Scouting Ireland requires its members "to accept religion or spirituality of some kind" and that as an atheist you should 'technically' not be a member. Well then 'technically' my children, from a non-religious family, should also not be members.

Clearly Scouting Ireland is not open to all young people and should not be receiving support from government and other bodies under false pretensions.

It is long past time for religions to butt out of areas that don't concern them. For too long we have given priests and religious enthusiasts access to our children. I will look into what funding SI receives and what its charter says before taking this further.

As a parent you have a choice to make. You can put your child into scouts. If you do so, you accept that scouting is a faith-based organisation. Like it or lump it. Take it or leave it.

The GAA is a sport-based organisation. You have to play sport to be in the GAA and likewise in scouting you have two choices.

1. You promise to do your duty to God (whoever or whatever that God may be).

2. You promise to further your understanding of a spiritual reality.

As an aside, a lot of groups in the country would be sponsored by the parish. This should be made clear to you when your child joins.

An an aside of an aside, I find it deeply disturbing, that you would accuse a priest of 'infiltrating' a youth organisation. I know a lot of priests who are involved in Scouting Ireland and all are lovely men who are very liberal and forward thinking. Perhaps you should sit down and chat to one of them.

[Banbh]

Scouting is a faith-based organisation. Like it or lump it. Take it or leave it.
The GAA is a sport-based organisation. You have to play sport to be in the GAA and likewise in scouting you have two choices.

So religion is the basis of the organisation and I thought it was scouting. It claims to be a scouting organisation and is being funded on that basis. If it is a religious organisation, then it should say that and not pretend to be open to all children.
We have just elected a President who spoke about inclusivity. I find your bigoted attitude in excluding children that don't share your religious views outdated and disgraceful.
Your "like it or lump it" attitude would not encourage me to sit down with any of your "lovely" priests. I wouldn't let my kids be with an ass's roar of any of them.
I thank you for your honesty as I have received nothing but ambiguity and double-talk so far from the official organisation.

[Orizio]

Originally Posted by Sparkles:)

Scouting Ireland is a multi denominational organisation and says so in the constitution (I'm trying to find this for you online).

Technically my children shouldn't be members either, but technically we shouldn't celebrate christmas either yet we do... that's just us

Random thing to say considering Christmas was originally a pagan tradition.

[Tomk1]

Originally Posted by glenn3ie

I know a lot of priests who are involved in Scouting Ireland and all are lovely men who are very liberal and forward thinking. Perhaps you should sit down and chat to one of them.

O god

[glenn3ie]

Originally Posted by Banbh

So religion is the basis of the organisation and I thought it was scouting. It claims to be a scouting organisation and is being funded on that basis. If it is a religious organisation, then it should say that and not pretend to be open to all children.
We have just elected a President who spoke about inclusivity. I find your bigoted attitude in excluding children that don't share your religious views outdated and disgraceful.
Your "like it or lump it" attitude would not encourage me to sit down with any of your "lovely" priests. I wouldn't let my kids be with an ass's roar of any of them.
I thank you for your honesty as I have received nothing but ambiguity and double-talk so far from the official organisation.

No religion is not the basis of the organisation. Faith is. That can be a faith in anything from Catholicism to the Church of the Flying Sphagetti Monster and if you do not have a belief in a specific church then all you must be willing to do is further your understanding of a spiritual reality.

I'm certainly no bigot and have an inclusive attitude with my scout troop. At the moment we have Catholic Scouts and Church of Ireland scouts and we aim to accommodate both when on camps. In the past we have had Muslim scouts as well.

You call me a bigot, but your attitude and what seems to be a personal vendetta against priests and the Catholic Church makes you look ignorant.

Anyway, just thought i'd add my two cents. Over and Out.

[the_syco]

Wow. Scouts has changed since I was a member. I was a member of the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland (CBSI), which turned into the Catholic Scouts of Ireland (CSI) and we got some female scouts and leaders. I think we had two protestants in the CBSI - they joined as they had mates in the section, and our leaders let them join. We would goto mass, but near the end of my term in scouts, mass events happened less, and when I was in ventures no-one bothered going unless there was some big important event.

Originally Posted by Banbh

So religion is the basis of the organisation and I thought it was scouting.

It depends. The CBSI was an off-shoot of the world wide scouts, created so that it would be a separate entity from the scouts (which tended to have a pro-British and Protestant image) during the 1920's. So in this case, some sections of scouts in Ireland used to be Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland, and some were not. Religion probably helped create the scouts, but it's not in charge of scouts now, AFAIK.

[Evil Al]

Originally Posted by glenn3ie

No religion is not the basis of the organisation. Faith is. That can be a faith in anything from Catholicism to the Church of the Flying Sphagetti Monster and if you do not have a belief in a specific church then all you must be willing to do is further your understanding of a spiritual reality.

As an outsider, that does not appear to be correct. You oblige the scouts to swear to "Love God". This implies they have to believe in *some* god. To me, this sounds discriminatory towards athiests.

My son is still too young for Scouts but I've started doing some research as I'd love him to join in a couple of years -- I think he'd enjoy it. However, looking at troops' websites that talk about the scouts carrying the bible up to the alter at mass as a recent official event, to say nothing of the religious nature of the oath, make me think it may not be the correct organisation for my son.

[Banbh]

Wherever there are children, there are priests.

[orathaic]

Originally Posted by Banbh

Wherever there are children, there are priests.

Where-ever their are pliable, uneducated minds, there will be those who seek to educate or convert them...

When i was a scout in the 90s the local priest acted as our Section leader. He was not spiritual advisor but a great guy.

Scouting Ireland today on paper discriminates against atheists.

We have one atheist in my group, (whose parents have been involved with the group for long enough to know what they were getting into) We have no priests.

We try to encourage conversation about what religion and faith mean to people, and do not discriminate against anyone.

But every group is different, every leader is different. Talk to your leaders and see if you feel comfortable with your children being involved.

I don't know any leaders who don't consider the children's welfare first. However I'm sure there are people in Ireland who think that religion is in a child's best interest. Your kids are going to meet them sooner or later...

[son.of.jimi]

Well now i'm gonna throw my 2 cents into this.

I was in a troop a few years back and when I was asked about my religious beliefs I was kicked out. I'm an Atheist.

Where's the understanding there? I don't believe in a deity and i'm kicked out of a group that contained all my friends.

So the double talk so far is that Atheists will be required to understand people's beliefs but actually scratch that, Let's kick them out instead and exclude them from a massive social circle.

[Scouter123]

Hi banbh im currently involved with a group and i can safely say 15% of the young people are agnostic/atheist, they do not wish to participate in a religious experience which is fine. there are currently 2 promises any child can make 1st: On my honour I promise that I will do my best,
to do my duty to God,
to serve my community,
to help other people and
to live by the Scout Law. the 2nd: On my honour I promise that I will do my best,
to further my understanding and acceptance of a
Spiritual Reality,
to serve my community,
to help other people and
to live by the Scout Law.
these are just promises not oaths. a person can change does this really have spelled out? a spiritual reality could be nothing at all.
the child is preferably should begiven a choice over what to be believe in any path.
more important then these is the scout law:
a) A Scout is to be trusted.
b) A Scout is loyal.
c) A Scout is helpful and considerate to all.
d) A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
e) A Scout makes good use of time and is
careful of possessions and property.
f) A Scout has respect for self and others.
g) A Scout respects nature and the
environment.

Originally Posted by Banbh

I can't make sense of that.
Here's the kernal of the thing: are there people in Scouting Ireland who are using it to put forward a religious perspective to children of non-religious parents and are they using the organisation to oblige all children to attend their religious services?

i dont get why your saying it is pointed out that they dont.

It is long past time for religions to butt out of areas that don't concern them. For too long we have given priests and religious enthusiasts access to our children. I will look into what funding SI receives and what its charter says before taking this further.[/QUOTE]

i dont get why you would want to make a fight against an organisation that helps 40000 young people currently in ireland and millions more past and around the world

Originally Posted by Banbh

This sends shivers up my spine. It seems that the religious have managed to infiltrate what should be a youth organisation for ALL children.

I can't make sense of that.
Here's the kernal of the thing: are there people in Scouting Ireland who are using it to put forward a religious perspective to children of non-religious parents and are they using the organisation to oblige all children to attend their religious services?

you seem to be hung up on words when they are just that - words. id like to point out to most of the young people i help they dont particularly care its just something else which is apart of the scouting experience
i could go on and on as i already have but its a great thing if the young person does their best. go back to your earlier hopes

Originally Posted by Banbh

Thanks for replies guys. We are going to get in touch with group leader and have a chat.

It's a great organisation, great opportunity for kids to mix and get out and about and the leaders deserve a lot more credit for what they do.

There should be a 'Leaders Day' each year where the scouts and parents cook a meal and give cards etc. It might make some of them understand what work is being done.

edit: best of luck with your experieences itll be a great journey