ASTI Ballots

Alex Meier · 24-09-2015 5:14pm

Only a 38% turnout. . . .This is what happens when you keep running ballots when the Government doesn't get the result it requires.

People lose faith in the democratic process.

km79 · 24-09-2015 5:21pm

Icsics wrote: »

Any word on the POR ballot?

70:30 in favour of ind action

Icsics · 24-09-2015 6:30pm

Thanks km79, I presume the POR ballot was rejected?

man_no_plan · 24-09-2015 6:32pm

I thought only tui workplaces Where the jc is offered were balloted? A few here are suggesting that third level members had a say.

Am I wrong?

km79 · 24-09-2015 6:42pm

Icsics wrote: »

Thanks km79, I presume the POR ballot was rejected?

still no word on this
I assume it will be accepted

RealJohn · 24-09-2015 6:52pm

acequion wrote: »

RealJohn, not having the time is NOT understandable. None of us have time. We're all swamped and we're all sick to death of having to constantly justify ourselves and fight a Govt who is hostile to us. But if we don't make the time we'll end up with a hell of a lot less time as the workload just gets crazier.

I agree that it is important to make the time to find out but it's easy for me to say that when I'm permanent. I'm sure there are plenty of teachers on insecure contracts who spend all of their spare time doing their utmost to try to stand out and get the security I have and I think it's understandable if they feel that their time is better spent going above and beyond their official duties in order to get it rather than find out what they're voting for when they ought to be entitled to assume that the unions are looking out for them. The fact that they should be worried about their conditions doesn't necessarily mean that they feel they can afford to.

I agree that they absolutely should make time but that doesn't mean that it's an easy decision in practice.

political analyst · 24-09-2015 7:12pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I would counter that by saying that the only 'apathy' was on the Yes side of the ASTI... such lack lustre support for it!!.

Why do so many ASTI members not care whether or not the new Junior Cycle assessment takes place?

political analyst · 24-09-2015 7:15pm

Icsics wrote: »

Any word on the POR ballot?

What does POR mean?

deiseindublin · 24-09-2015 7:16pm

Posts of Responsibility

Alex Meier · 24-09-2015 7:17pm

political analyst wrote: »

Why do so many ASTI members not care whether or not the new Junior Cycle assessment takes place?

They voted NO to Croke Park . . . It passed.

They voted NO twice to Haddington Road. . . It passed.

Perhaps many members have come to the conclusion that this will pass also . . so what's the point?

evolving_doors · 24-09-2015 7:19pm

political analyst wrote: »

Why do so many ASTI members not care whether or not the new Junior Cycle assessment takes place?

I don't know TBH, maybe they see that as 'politics'... i.e. 'nothing to do with us, now move along to class' type thinking.

Do you have a theory yourself?

Benicetomonty · 24-09-2015 7:22pm

38% is a v disappointing turnout imo. That figure will be torn into over the next few days. The apathy is astonishing, although maybe not as much as the TUI's acceptance...

evolving_doors · 24-09-2015 7:27pm

Alex Meier wrote: »

They voted NO to Croke Park . . . It passed.

They voted NO twice to Haddington Road. . . It passed.

Perhaps many members have come to the conclusion that this will pass also . . so what's the point?

I'd agree, the language in the media in the moment seems to portray the unions in turmoil, in that it's now up to them to go and 'fix it'. Look at the headline in the Irish times (In education section):

"Teachers threaten further industrial action after split vote".

Also Joe Humphries other 'pronouncements' about what is going to happen as of today!

[*]September 2015: Following the summer school break, balloting takes place.

[*]Spring 2016: Initial classroom based assessments will be carried out for second-year students in English. Such assessments will be extended to Science and Business Studies the following year, rolling out to all other subjects by 2020.

[*]September 2017: The JCPA will be issued for the first time, for the English component only, extending to other subjects by 2022.

So what's the point of voting if Joe says it's going to happen anyway?

REgarding the 3rd level voting, I'd be interested to know how many voted from this sector anyhow.

Was there a section on the TUI ballot envelope to state the sector/school/college?

joebloggs32 · 24-09-2015 7:41pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

I thought only tui workplaces Where the jc is offered were balloted? A few here are suggesting that third level members had a say.

Am I wrong?

I think you're right. As far as I know the 2nd and 3rd level sectors don't vote on ballots that won't concern them.

man_no_plan · 24-09-2015 7:44pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'd agree, the language in the media in the moment seems to portray the unions in turmoil, in that it's now up to them to go and 'fix it'. Look at the headline in the Irish times (In education section):

"Teachers threaten further industrial action after split vote".

Also Joe Humphries other 'pronouncements' about what is going to happen as of today!

So what's the point of voting if Joe says it's going to happen anyway?

REgarding the 3rd level voting, I'd be interested to know how many voted from this sector anyhow.

Was there a section on the TUI ballot envelope to state the sector/school/college?

Only workplaces offering jc were balloted, found it in tui news.

tosh999 · 24-09-2015 8:03pm

Vote, vote? what vote? Oh that vote. Sure that won't affect my subject for another few years ......

r93kaey5p2izun · 24-09-2015 8:13pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Only workplaces offering jc were balloted, found it in tui news.

Yes. But FE teachers in dual centres (lots of ETB schools) could vote. Our hairdressing, beauty, massage etc tutors all got to vote Yes to something that will never affect them.

I'm disgusted but not surprised that TUI accepted. Once the officials recommended it then it was inevitable. Delighted the ASTI rejected but the pathetic turnout is incredible. If I could join the ASTI I would. High time we had united representation. This split is a nonsense.

acequion · 24-09-2015 8:15pm

Calamitising about the turn out and the tui capitulation is not going to do us any good. Nor are the doom and gloom predictions. The fact is that the majority of our union have said NO. That shows courage. No doubt the knives will be out for us big time and are already. Ingrid Miley was a disgrace on the news. As was O Sullivan with her bullying attitude. The media spin will go into over drive and we'll be portrayed as the ones holding back the brave new Ireland.

Be that as it may, we must hold firm on this. Now is the time to make the union our servant and not our master.

acequion · 24-09-2015 8:17pm

It appears that many want to cross over to asti,but that can't be done during a dispute. We're always in dispute lately. But having two unions,where one always goes crying back to daddy Enda, is indeed a joke.

man_no_plan · 24-09-2015 8:21pm

Jayceon Zealous Ballistics wrote: »

Yes. But FE teachers in dual centres (lots of ETB schools) could vote. Our hairdressing, beauty, massage etc tutors all got to vote Yes to something that will never affect them.

I'm disgusted but not surprised that TUI accepted. Once the officials recommended it then it was inevitable. Delighted the ASTI rejected but the pathetic turnout is incredible. If I could join the ASTI I would. High time we had united representation. This split is a nonsense.

Yes but we should be clear that lecturers in IOTs weren't voting on this as had been suggested.

Is it beyond the belief of everyone here that maybe some teachers can see some value in the proposals?

Not everyone is a sheep who follows directions from the union, maybe they had a look at the new JC and said 'yeah I'm happy with that'.

I'm not saying they're right and you're wrong but give them the credit of being able to make an informed decision.

We don't want to assess our students for state certification was the mantra. That is removed now so what do we do now? Say well actually we don't want to change anything??

acequion · 24-09-2015 8:36pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Yes but we should be clear that lecturers in IOTs weren't voting on this as had been suggested.

Is it beyond the belief of everyone here that maybe some teachers can see some value in the proposals?

Not everyone is a sheep who follows directions from the union, maybe they had a look at the new JC and said 'yeah I'm happy with that'.

I'm not saying they're right and you're wrong but give them the credit of being able to make an informed decision.

We don't want to assess our students for state certification was the mantra. That is removed now so what do we do now? Say well actually we don't want to change anything??

Seeing merit in the proposals would be one thing if these reforms were offset by a dismantling of some of the most savage of recent cuts and a decent pay rise for teachers in return for major work practice changes. A majority of teachers in the ASTI have had enough of demands,impositions,threats,cuts,criticisms and deteriorating morale and conditions and are barely coping. So they are just not willing to take any more and as the ASTI are now correctly stating,don't trust the Government.

You can demonise us all you want and infer,as everyone will,that we don't want to change anything. You don't keep flogging a horse when he's down. You wait for him to get back up and you nurse him back to health. They couldn't have come looking for their reforms at a worse time.

deiseindublin · 24-09-2015 8:36pm

We really need 3 straight unions: primary, 2nd level, 3rd level. Not sure where FE would go because a lot of teachers in CCs are dual teachers.

I don't feel represented by TUI, but don't really have any alternative. Leaving seems like a futile action. Staying seems even more pointless.

man_no_plan · 24-09-2015 8:46pm

acequion wrote: »

You can demonise us all you want and infer,as everyone will,that we don't want to change anything. You don't keep flogging a horse when he's down. You wait for him to get back up and you nurse him back to health. They couldn't have come looking for their reforms at a worse time.

I'm not demonising anyone just asking a question. The major point of the TUI opposition was school based assessment fir state certification. I don't know how they could have recommended a rejection with this being removed. That was my point about not wanting change. You either have a view on something and pursue it, as both unions did, or you roll over completely.

The fact is that the agreed document is much different to the original Quinn proposals. I think that teachers who voted yes saw this and were happy.

The no voters were obviously bot swayed by this, in either union. My question is, really, what level of JC reform would you be happy with? If the the answer is none than be straight about it and don't hide behind assessment of students. Let your union line be "we got rode for the last 5 years so **** off with your reform until you sort that out"

I think rejection of the LRA is a more important issue and will deliver more than rejection of the JC. Please note that I am entitled to an opinion on this and other issues.

deiseindublin · 24-09-2015 8:57pm

acequion wrote: »

Ingrid Miley was a disgrace on the news.

She always is with any public service.

katydid · 24-09-2015 8:59pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Did only TUI secondary school teachers have a right to vote on JC reform, or did all TUI members have a right?

Only second level, of course. People not involved would hardly have a vote.

katydid · 24-09-2015 9:02pm

clunked wrote: »

Have to say, amazed at the TUI capitulation. Leaves the ASTI exposed. Expect loads of threats now from the Dept.

Capitulation is a loaded word. Maybe they just saw that it wasn't such a bad idea, since the objection was to the state certification and that was off the table.

deiseindublin · 24-09-2015 9:03pm

Loads of FE teachers got a vote too.

katydid · 24-09-2015 9:06pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm TUI and disgusted (but not surprised) at the result. It's very hard to know what the breakdown is but it can't help that 3rd level vote is included in this 2nd level debate.
.

Nope, third level isn't. Only people who teach at second level. But of course in some cases these people also teach FE courses, and maybe they know from experience that the proposal isn't as bad as others think.

katydid · 24-09-2015 9:07pm

Icsics wrote: »

TUI third level should not be allowed vote on 2nd level issues.

They shouldn't. And they're not.

katydid · 24-09-2015 9:11pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The TUI, as a union, should focus on 3rd level issues and all second level teachers should join the ASTI in the interest of unity.

The TUI is the TEACHER'S Union of Ireland. Third level staff are mostly lecturers, not teachers. They should be in a union with other third level staff.

I agree that there should be one union at second level. But neither TUI nor ASTI. It would have to be a new union.

But what about FE? It's not big enough for its own union.

ASTI Ballots

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