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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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Comments

  • #1502
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    koth wrote: »
    oldrnwsr explained that the 2008 data is the latest available.

    Thanks for that koth but it seems that since my last post on the matter a more up-to-date report was published.


  • #1503
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Thanks for that koth but it seems that since my last post on the matter a more up-to-date report was published.
    no problem, half expected you to have more recent data.
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.

    But that's not what you were being pulled up on. You said Ireland without abortion is the safest place to have a baby. That's not true based on the data that oldrnwsr provided.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1504
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    koth wrote: »
    But that's not what you were being pulled up on. You said Ireland without abortion is the safest place to have a baby. That's not true based on the data that oldrnwsr provided.

    and would abortion make it safer? It no women are dying becuase we don't have it then its obvious we don't need it.


  • #1505
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    and would abortion make it safer?
    Possibly. The data that oldrnwsr shows that having abortion as an option doesn't make a country less safe for pregnant women.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1506
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.
    So when you think the figures back your point up, they are valid to use. The second you find out that they don't, you try to dismiss them as irrelevant. Your standard modus operandi so

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  • #1507
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    28064212 wrote: »
    So when you think the figures back your point up, they are valid to use. The second you find out that they don't, you try to dismiss them as irrelevant. Your standard modus operandi so

    Well if you are going to use 2008 figures i will use 2009 unicef figures that state ireland is the safest place to have a baby?

    Unless you are saying unicefs figures are wrong.


    And again I ask..... Would abortion make the mortality rates any better? If we had abortion nothing would change,..


  • #1508
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    PDN wrote: »
    I lived in the UK for a number of years. I personally know of a number of occasions where people received abortions for all kinds of trivial reasons (eg one girl was due to be a bridesmaid at a wedding and the dress wouldn't fit her if she continued with her pregnancy).

    So all those figures prove is that people will lie in order to get what they want, and that there are plenty of doctors who are prepared to connive with such lying.

    And this is an issue of great concern. I think most people in Ireland are open to abortion being performed in extreme cases (eg where the mother's life is genuinely at risk, or where the unborn child is a product of rape). But what has happened in other countries suggests that this will lead to virtual abortion on demand, for often trivial reasons and authorised with a nod and a knowing wink - and I think huge numbers of people in Ireland are not willing for that to happen.

    I wasn't attempting to prove anything about abortion just refute philologos' claim.

    I agree with you the reasons are probably trivial and performed with the complicity of doctors acting unethically. If you look at it 97.9% of all abortions were done on the basis of a threat to the mother's mental health.

    As for the Irish situation, yes I would be open to abortion in cases of medical necessity and rape but I am undecided about abortion on demand. My general feeling is that abortion for trivial reasons is wrong but I find the arguments on both sides are pretty poor.

    I don't think you've refuted it other than to say that people are quote good at claiming something fits into a category when it clearly doesn't. If abortion was strictly limited to those criterion there'd be a lot less in the UK.


  • #1509
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.

    First of all, yes women have died because of the lack of abortion services. Lots of them. In fact, the WHO have stated that women seeking black market abortions because of the lack of legal abortion services account for 13% of maternal deaths.

    Secondly, yes, the number of women who died in this country during pregnancy in 2010 was very small, just four. However, we don't have any data on the causes of deaths of those four women so we can't rule out any causal factor including being refused an abortion.

    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    and would abortion make it safer? It no women are dying becuase we don't have it then its obvious we don't need it.

    Correlation is not causation.

    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Well if you are going to use 2008 figures i will use 2009 unicef figures that state ireland is the safest place to have a baby?

    Unless you are saying unicefs figures are wrong.


    And again I ask..... Would abortion make the mortality rates any better? If we had abortion nothing would change,..

    First of all, the statistics are compiled and analysed by the WHO, UNICEF and UNFPA but are published by the WHO. UNICEF don't publish MMR stats.

    Secondly, even if you had 2009 figures from UNICEF (which you didn't bother to link to in your post) the figures I posted are from 2010 which are the most recent available (at least until next year).

    Finally, in our country with the general health of our citizens, our strong education system and first-world healthcare system, having legal abortion is not likely to have any effect on our MMR. Yes, nothing would change. That's the point. You tried to argue that not having abortion is keeping our MMR low. It's not.

    philologos wrote: »
    I don't think you've refuted it other than to say that people are quote good at claiming something fits into a category when it clearly doesn't. If abortion was strictly limited to those criterion there'd be a lot less in the UK.

    In my post here I pointed to the section of the Abortion Act which details the statutory grounds for a legal abortion in the UK.

    You then claimed here that very little abortions are performed for those four reasons.

    I then posted the statistics here which show that, in fact, all abortions are performed for one of these four reasons.

    Ergo, claim refuted.

    Now, that aside, I would admit at the very least there is a possibility that some women feign a mental health issue in order to obtain an abortion and I agree that if these criteria were applied more rigorously there would be far fewer abortions in the UK. In fact, I think that's something that should be implemented.


  • #1510
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    PDN is bang on when he posts the following:
    So all those figures prove is that people will lie in order to get what they want, and that there are plenty of doctors who are prepared to connive with such lying.

    These figures aren't much proof other than that people can say anything in order to get an abortion. If people stuck firmly by those 4 principles you've laid out, we would see a lot less abortions. The reality is that a pro-choice mindset like has developed in Britain, and seeing it in action here helps in understanding this, goes well beyond those four criteria. Unless you're telling me that nearly 200,000 abortions are all performed because of serious risk to the life of the mother?

    The statistics don't mean much when one can very clearly see what is happening on the ground.


  • #1511
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    philologos wrote: »
    PDN is bang on when he posts the following:


    These figures aren't much proof other than that people can say anything in order to get an abortion. If people stuck firmly by those 4 principles you've laid out, we would see a lot less abortions. The reality is that a pro-choice mindset like has developed in Britain, and seeing it in action here helps in understanding this, goes well beyond those four criteria. Unless you're telling me that nearly 200,000 abortions are all performed because of serious risk to the life of the mother?

    The statistics don't mean much when one can very clearly see what is happening on the ground.


    Yes, I agreed with PDN in my response to him. Are there women who lied about a mental health issue to get an abortion? Very probably. How many? There is no way to determine that.

    I never said that all those abortions were performed because of a risk to the life of the mother. I pointed out that the statistics show that 97.9% or about 185,000 were performed because of a threat to the mental health of the mother. But please don't let me get in the way of your strawman.

    Look, for the sake of clarity let me declare my position on this issue, once and for all. I have been reticent to do so because a) it's an incredibly emotive topic and b) there are some really awful arguments on both sides of this issue. I am in favour of legal abortion where there is a serious risk to the life of the mother and in cases of incest or rape. I have yet to see anything to tip the balance one way or the other in favour of abortion on demand. I think that even if we are to go down the road of legal abortion, the first thing we need to do is develop a better and more comprehensive sexual health education system. Like PDN said, abstinence, fidelity and contraception. Unfortunately, with the influence of the Catholic Church in this country, the latter is always going to be a problem.


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  • #1512
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    It's been pointed out that abortion should technically already be allowed here in accordance with the will of the people.

    I'm shocked at how that fact has been consistently skimmed over.


  • #1513
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    It's been pointed out that abortion should technically already be allowed here in accordance with the will of the people.

    I'm shocked at how that fact has been consistently skimmed over.
    Its allowed and carried out here already if the mothers life is at risk. I know from a friends personal experience. Doctors are not sitting by letting mothers die who need treatment.


  • #1514
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Its allowed and carried out here already if the mothers life is at risk. I know from a friends personal experience. Doctors are not sitting by letting mothers die who need treatment.


    Your personal exerience tells me nothing, to be honest. I don't know the circumstances, I'm not asking the details either as they aren't my business, but to hear a story second hand from a friend doesn't mean a lot to me. Sounds like a very rare exception if it even occured the way you believe it did.


  • #1515
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.


    What about the amount of women whose lives are a living death? It's not good enough to expect a woman to have a baby and exist, just about, and the same for the child- or to expect her to give the baby up to someone who 'wants' it- that is unrealistic too. I get the feeling, excuse me if I'm wrong, that even if suicide was an immediate risk, the pro life people here would still find abortion to be unconscionable. There is no justification in some peoples' eyes. There is no compassion and a complete absence of understanding.


  • #1516
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Well if you are going to use 2008 figures i will use 2009 unicef figures that state ireland is the safest place to have a baby?

    Unless you are saying unicefs figures are wrong.
    What Unicef figures? You haven't posted any, the only ones you posted were 2 months ago and you used the 2008 figures, which were totally debunked by oldrnwisr. Then you made the exact same statement in today's post (without the reference).
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    And again I ask..... Would abortion make the mortality rates any better? If we had abortion nothing would change,..
    Exactly one person made the connection between the availability of abortion and maternity mortality rates: YOU. You were the one who decided they were relevant. Until of course you were shown that the figures didn't support your argument, and now you're trying to squirm your way out of it and try to claim they're not relevant any more, exactly the same tack you used with the "will of the people" discussion this question, just moved on to your flawed mortality rate argument:

    Provide me with a straight answer to these questions (if you're capable of it): do you support legislation that would provide for women to receive an abortion where suicide is a substantial risk to the life of the mother? If your answer is no, please explain why the will of the people should be over-ridden
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Its allowed and carried out here already if the mothers life is at risk. I know from a friends personal experience. Doctors are not sitting by letting mothers die who need treatment.
    There are a number of conditions where abortions are not available, and the "problem" is shipped off to England. The most obvious being the risk of suicide. Which reminds me, you never answered

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  • #1517
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    The question of faking suicidal feelings seems a bit absurd to me. Abortion is expensive, especially if it requires foreign travel etc., it can be painful and it's undignified. It carries a huge stigma too. Anyone who thinks abortion's a lifestyle choice or a lazy way out or a form of contraception needs to try to put themself in the woman's shoes and walk a mile, so to speak. I suspect there are people who don't have the life experience to do it.


  • #1518
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    article-2163076-13BB26E7000005DC-480_634x351.jpg


    When this happy little girl was just a "clump of cells" her mum was offered a termination as a way of treating her oral cancer. Lucky for her,the parents opted to treat the cancer instead.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2163076/Surgeons-save-unborn-baby-removing-mouth-tumour-WOMB.html?ito=feeds-newsxml


  • #1519
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Very lucky parents that they were able to get access to Dr Quintero and his pioneering foetal machine. Excellent to see science able to help a child that had little chance of survival. It means that in time the rare tumour would be easily treated by most hospitals.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1520
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    The question of faking suicidal feelings seems a bit absurd to me. Abortion is expensive, especially if it requires foreign travel etc., it can be painful and it's undignified. It carries a huge stigma too. Anyone who thinks abortion's a lifestyle choice or a lazy way out or a form of contraception needs to try to put themself in the woman's shoes and walk a mile, so to speak. I suspect there are people who don't have the life experience to do it.


    In Britain its abortion in demand .. you want it you get it. They don't ask a lot of questions.

    Abortion is not expensive... pretty cheap to get to uk, do it all the time.

    for most women it is the lazy choice. Its getting rid of an inconvenience.

    I don't need to put myself in their shoes all I need to do is read the testimonies of those who did it to know the reason why and the regrets they live with.

    Abortion is a selfish act.


  • #1521
    Morbert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    In Britain its abortion in demand .. you want it you get it. They don't ask a lot of questions.

    Abortion is not expensive... pretty cheap to get to uk, do it all the time.

    for most women it is the lazy choice. Its getting rid of an inconvenience.

    I don't need to put myself in their shoes all I need to do is read the testimonies of those who did it to know the reason why and the regrets they live with.

    Abortion is a selfish act.

    Eating food is also a selfish act. It needs to be more than selfish to be illegal.


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  • #1522
    Morbert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    article-2163076-13BB26E7000005DC-480_634x351.jpg


    When this happy little girl was just a "clump of cells" her mum was offered a termination as a way of treating her oral cancer. Lucky for her,the parents opted to treat the cancer instead.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2163076/Surgeons-save-unborn-baby-removing-mouth-tumour-WOMB.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    11174-0-cute-child.jpg

    Before this child was conceived, the parents could have used contraception. Lucky for her, they chose not to.


  • #1523
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    No, it's not pretty cheap . The average cost of the trip and procedure and accomodation, rail or taxi fares, et. cetera is 2,000 euro. If you think that's cheap, you're doing very well indeed and it's no wonder you can't seem to grasp the concept women in Ireland being too poor to have a baby.

    You're in a privileged position if you can travel at all, compared to some of these women, some of whom don't possess a passport because they can't afford one. Which is another expense when they find themselves having to go abroad to an abortion clinic.


  • #1524
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    In Britain its abortion in demand .. you want it you get it. They don't ask a lot of questions.

    Abortion is not expensive... pretty cheap to get to uk, do it all the time.

    for most women it is the lazy choice. Its getting rid of an inconvenience.

    I don't need to put myself in their shoes all I need to do is read the testimonies of those who did it to know the reason why and the regrets they live with.

    Abortion is a selfish act.

    It's your opinion that women are lazy and selfish. Not a fact. You don't seem to have any empathy for anyone who doesn't follow the path in life you think they should follow.

    How can you make a sweeping, damning judgement about a group of people you've never met without putting yourself in their shoes ?


    Ok. Try reading the testimonies of women who felt it was the best decision too. It's the best way to develop a balanced view.


  • #1525
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    It's your opinion that women are lazy and selfish. Not a fact. You don't seem to have any empathy for anyone who doesn't follow the path in life you think they should follow.

    How can you make a sweeping, damning judgement about a group of people you've never met without putting yourself in their shoes ?


    Ok. Try reading the testimonies of women who felt it was the best decision too. It's the best way to develop a balanced view.


    Let it be damning. There are many things I don't like. But I can respect people for them. You seem to think we are going to lower the gravity of abortion and respect people who do it?


    As for the principle of having an abortion its very clear cut. Its wrong. Its Selfish. Its not 1940's Ireland. There is support. There are options. Abortion is a coup out. Its Murder plain and simple.

    Reality is.. Women are aborting Children,, not concepts... not a lifestyle.. not opinions.. Children.. HUMAN BEINGS.


  • #1526
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Let it be damning. There are many things I don't like. But I can respect people for them. You seem to think we are going to lower the gravity of abortion and respect people who do it?


    As for the principle of having an abortion its very clear cut. Its wrong. Its Selfish. Its not 1940's Ireland. There is support. There are options. Abortion is a coup out. Its Murder plain and simple.[/QUOT

    I disagree strongly, but you're entitled to your opinion, fair enough


  • #1527
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    I disagree strongly, but you're entitled to your opinion, fair enough


    If we were talking about saa Gay couples lifestyle. I could say I don't agree but I can respect their choices.. Its their life..

    or Couples having casual sex.. I don't agree as it does not have commitment. But its their lives.and their choices..

    But I can Never Respect someone who advocates abortion as an option because their "opinion" is ending another human life without consent.

    Abortion is black and white. The act is murder, plain and simple.

    I would never harm a woman who aborted or harass her.. Whats done can't be undone. But I will always strongly defend the right to life and the immoral principle of abortion.


  • #1528
    NaasPreacher
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭NaasPreacher


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If we were talking about saa Gay couples lifestyle. I could say I don't agree but I can respect their choices.. Its their life..

    or Couples having casual sex.. I don't agree as it does not have commitment. But its their lives.and their choices..

    But I can Never Respect someone who advocates abortion as an option because their "opinion" is ending another human life without consent.

    Abortion is black and white. The act is murder, plain and simple.

    I would never harm a woman who aborted or harass her.. Whats done can't be undone. But I will always strongly defend the right to life and the immoral principle of abortion.

    Very well put, IMNSHO


  • #1529
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If we were talking about saa Gay couples lifestyle. I could say I don't agree but I can respect their choices.. Its their life..

    or Couples having casual sex.. I don't agree as it does not have commitment. But its their lives.and their choices..

    But I can Never Respect someone who advocates abortion as an option because their "opinion" is ending another human life without consent.

    Abortion is black and white. The act is murder, plain and simple.

    I would never harm a woman who aborted or harass her.. Whats done can't be undone. But I will always strongly defend the right to life and the immoral principle of abortion.


    No point in reiterating what I've already said, my views are contradictory to yours obviously but we all want to stand up for our principles and part of that involves educating each other by sharing our perspectives on things.


  • #1530
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    No point in reiterating what I've already said, my views are contradictory to yours obviously but we all want to stand up for our principles and part of that involves educating each other by sharing our perspectives on things.

    If we were talking about anything other than abortion i would entertain being educated,, but when it comes to abortion my objection is absolute. Because we are talking life and death of another person. + we are in Christianity forum.


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  • #1531
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If we were talking about anything other than abortion i would entertain being educated,, but when it comes to abortion my objection is absolute. Because we are talking life and death of another person. + we are in Christianity forum.

    I'm not suggesting you change your stance. I consider it educational to hear opposing viewpoints, that's all.

    To only converse with people who shared the same worldview would bore me and I'd hate to be that insular. (Not saying *you* are insular, but I would feel like I was, if I eschewed all alternative viewpoints)


This discussion has been closed.
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