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Irish Water

1246

Comments

  • #92
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    ben101 wrote: »
    No just ben.Sorry but don't get your point ,haven't said anything controversial.I would guess that someone complained to An Post about the water charges having no name on them ,maybe someone renting who thinks the property owner is liable.Whats interesting about this is who is liable for the charge?Tenant,property owner,etc.Because the charge is so unpopular if you send them out with no name on them they are going to be ignored.On a postal point of view ,if a registered letter gets sent out to a property looking for money for non payment for services rendered with a possible legal threat of prosecution ,well ,not too many people sign for registered letters that don't have their name on it so chances of it being signed for are slim.Bottom line is you have to have a name on something like this,to be honest i would say about 90% or more are named but there is still a big chunk of properties that have yet to be determined who is responsible for the charges.

    I think the whole "An Post won't deliver with out a name on the envelope" just comes across a lot "Freeman-ish" An Post regularly deliver mail with an address and no name. They would not have the right to refuse to post a letter (except if it contained someone toxic/dangerous/illegal).


  • #93
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    I think the whole "An Post won't deliver with out a name on the envelope" just comes across a lot "Freeman-ish" An Post regularly deliver mail with an address and no name. They would not have the right to refuse to post a letter (except if it contained someone toxic/dangerous/illegal).

    I wish they would stop delivering post from envelopes from UPC and Sky that comes addressed to 'The Occupier'. It is just junk mail - but An Post deliver a lot of junk mail themselves.


  • #94
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    Victor wrote: »
    No it isn't. If it was a bill, it would have an amount of money on it.

    It's a leaflet and a form.

    Not only that An Post have delivered bills for other utility companies in the past. Usually when you move into a new rental. Utility companies prefer not to do this as the Occupier can be difficult to bring to book.

    An post deliver stuff to my place that doesn't even have an address on it never mind a name. The Irish Water mail out is no different to any other mass mail out that An Post facilitate.


  • #95
    NUTLEY BOY
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    Our new water meter was installed recently. The old stop-cock was taken away and is replaced by a blue handle which is an integral part of the meter assembly.

    I needed to change a tap washer. I turned the blue stop-cock handle. The water flow reduced to a trickle but would not shut off completely. With the old stop-cock (turned on/off with a water key) I could switch off the water supply completely.

    Is this how the new stop-cock is supposed to work or is it a fault ? It does not seem right or satisfactory that you cannot now isolate the water supply at the stop-cock. My neighbour checked his new stop-cock with identical results.

    Any thoughts please ?

    Follow up.


    Farrans called to check it out for my uncle - it's his house. He was worried about the stopcock because he was so used to the old style one where five turns switched it off totally and quickly.

    The water does cut off with the new stopcock but very slowly. When you turn the blue handle it turns off the water substantially but it can take a few minutes to stop dribbling / trickling. I suspect that the continued flow was possibly standing water from upstairs pipes trickling back through the kitchen tap ! Mystery solved.

    The guy from Farrans showed us how you would know if there was a flow after you turned off the stop cock. If you are sharp eyed you will see a little cogged wheel turning through a plastic window in the meter unit below the numbers. If water is turned off the cog does not spin.

    As with so much of this stuff we will just have to see how well it works over time.


  • #96
    NUTLEY BOY
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    The letter arrived from Irish Water to register with them. I only got to have a quick read but something odd struck me about the free allowances.

    There is a 30,000 litres p.a. free allowance for water. However, they seem to be saying the following ;

    1. There is also a free allowance of 30,000 litres for waste water.

    2. We are liable for charges for waste water which I presume to include sewerage.

    Q1. Are we legally liable separately and distinctly for waste water ?

    Q2. Are we entering in to an agreement to accept legal liability to pay for waste water in the future if it is not being charged at present ?

    We are on public mains for both water supply and waste water.


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  • #97
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    The letter arrived from Irish Water to register with them. I only got to have a quick read but something odd struck me about the free allowances.

    There is a 30,000 litres p.a. free allowance for water. However, they seem to be saying the following ;

    1. There is also a free allowance of 30,000 litres for waste water.

    2. We are liable for charges for waste water which I presume to include sewerage.

    Q1. Are we legally liable separately and distinctly for waste water ?

    Q2. Are we entering in to an agreement to accept legal liability to pay for waste water in the future if it is not being charged at present ?

    We are on public mains for both water supply and waste water.

    Fresh and water water are being charged separately at €2.44/m3 In future, they may introduce methods to assess people that have different-from-usual set-ups, e.g. someone with a large glasshouse may use a lot more fresh water than the amount of sewage they produce. However, this would need to take into account any rainwater collection system they have.


  • #98
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    The letter arrived from Irish Water to register with them. I only got to have a quick read but something odd struck me about the free allowances.

    There is a 30,000 litres p.a. free allowance for water. However, they seem to be saying the following ;

    1. There is also a free allowance of 30,000 litres for waste water.

    2. We are liable for charges for waste water which I presume to include sewerage.

    Q1. Are we legally liable separately and distinctly for waste water ?

    Q2. Are we entering in to an agreement to accept legal liability to pay for waste water in the future if it is not being charged at present ?

    We are on public mains for both water supply and waste water.

    Some people will be on public mains for water supply but have their own septic tank.


  • #99
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    They appear to have forgoten that rainwater goes into the sewerage system (at least it does in my house). Does that mean we will be charged extra in wet weather?


  • #100
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They appear to have forgoten that rainwater goes into the sewerage syste (at least it does in my house). Does that mean we will be charges extra in wet weather?

    They are not metering your sewage!

    The assumption will be that the volume of waste water will be the same as the water supplied.


  • #101
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They appear to have forgoten that rainwater goes into the sewerage system (at least it does in my house). Does that mean we will be charged extra in wet weather?
    Not at this time. The current billing system is fixed for 3 years. However, it may gradually evolve, e.g. giving people allowance for using water butts and soakage pits and penalising people with large, impervious driveways that flow into public drains.

    A house (not including paths, driveways, etc.) would produce perhaps 25m3 (semi-d in Dublin) to 300m3 (large bungalow in West Cork) of rainwater per year. Properties with larger gardens and in rural areas obviously have a greater potential for soakage pits.

    Note that people also use water on their gardens. That off-sets the rain water that enters the drainage system, but at the wrong times. Ideally, people should pay more for using drains at times of heavy rain and fresh water when it is in short supply / over demand.

    I think they should also rebalance the tariff, with a fixed element to cover infrastructure and billing and a reduced m3 cost. Those two charge should somewhat reflect the type of connection, e.g. a factory with a 150mm connection would have a different charge to an ordinary domestic supply and a rural connection should be different to an urban one.


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  • #102
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I must put smileys on my posts.

    In Germany (I beleive), they are charged based on the hard cover on their site (concrete and roof vs gravel).

    The whole billing process is ill thought out as the 'free' allowance distorts the charge per unit, making it one of the highest in Europe, and more than double the charge for the same water for commercial users.

    A simple way of charging - standing charge plus usage - would have been better. An assessed charge, with the option for a metered supply, would have been even better for the first five years, allowing the investment to go into fixing supply issues like leaks and quality. Why saddle IW with a huge cost for a meter per customer when it costs the first two years revenue?


  • #103
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Ogham wrote: »
    I still don't believe An Post are refusing to deliver these forms.

    They deliver stuff all the time addressed to "The Occupier".

    Oh and we have gotten our letter.


  • #104
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    antoobrien wrote: »
    They deliver stuff all the time addressed to "The Occupier".

    Oh and we have gotten our letter.
    Staff were told to send back items with"The occupier" but because of the volumes its handier to deliver them as each item has to be endorsed by hand by the postal op so some are getting delivered ,some aren't.


  • #105
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    ben101 wrote: »
    Staff were told to send back items with"The occupier" but because of the volumes its handier to deliver them as each item has to be endorsed by hand by the postal op so some are getting delivered ,some aren't.

    Do you have this first hand, or third/fourth hand?


  • #106
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Do you have this first hand, or third/fourth hand?

    First hand,don't want to say much more than that but if you ask around you would find a lot of people haven't gotten them yet and thats probably why.


  • #107
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    ben101 wrote: »
    Staff were told to send back items with"The occupier" but because of the volumes its handier to deliver them as each item has to be endorsed by hand by the postal op so some are getting delivered ,some aren't.

    What does "endorsed by hand" mean?


  • #108
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    What does "endorsed by hand" mean?

    That a signature / initials are added.


  • #109
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    ben101 wrote: »
    Staff were told to send back items with"The occupier" but because of the volumes its handier to deliver them as each item has to be endorsed by hand by the postal op so some are getting delivered ,some aren't.

    I can't understand why An Post are able to deliver thousands of letters addressed everyday to "the occupier" every day to addresses nationwide and they suddenly can't do Irish Water?

    Where does the op endorse the letter? Is it on a listing?


  • #110
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    ben101 wrote: »
    First hand,don't want to say much more than that but if you ask around you would find a lot of people haven't gotten them yet and thats probably why.

    So you are an An Post employee whom was given this instruction ?


  • #111
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    So you are an An Post employee whom was given this instruction ?

    I can't say for obvious reasons,leave it at that ;)


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  • #112
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    Where does the op endorse the letter? Is it on a listing?

    There is these little pink stickers with a list of reasons for items that are sent back,deceased,refused ,insufficient address etc.You place the sticker over the address ,fill in the date,reason and inititial it ,then it gets returned to sender.


  • #113
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    ben101 wrote: »
    There is these little pink stickers with a list of reasons for items that are sent back,deceased,refused ,insufficient address etc.You place the sticker over the address ,fill in the date,reason and inititial it ,then it gets returned to sender.

    So what would the reason be for returning a letter addressed to "the occupier". Surely you just put it through the letterbox like every other? Of the three reasons listed above, none would apply to this situation.

    Irish Water are paying An Post to deliver the letters to the occupier like other customers. So where's the problem?


  • #114
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    So what would the reason be for returning a letter addressed to "the occupier". Surely you just put it through the letterbox like every other? Of the three reasons listed above, none would apply to this situation.

    Irish Water are paying An Post to deliver the letters to the occupier like other customers. So where's the problem?
    They are classing them as insufficient.Maybe because people were sending them back or maybe someone made a complaint.It's a bit like getting a tax demand but no name On it,there really should be a name or people will just ignore them,I am only guessing though so your guess is as good as mine,


  • #115
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Why are items from Sky addressed to The Occupier always reliably delivered? The IW pack is nothing different.


  • #116
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    MYOB wrote: »
    Why are items from Sky addressed to The Occupier always reliably delivered? The IW pack is nothing different.

    Because the Sky stuff is mostly junk,info about special offers etc.IW are just fishing for names by sending out "the occupier" hoping they will get some people to fill in their details.It would be in IW's benefit to make sure they have names on them otherwise you are not going to get too many people volunteering to pay IW unless they have a name to chase down in case of non payment.How can you prosecute "the occupier" and send him/her a fine or to jail?You could have ten people sharing a house ,what then?


  • #117
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    This thread is turning into one about An Post and letters to "Occupier."


    Maybe a few staff are not delivering them or are being handed tham back by "occupiers" who are against the idea of water charges. I don't believe that AN Post have officially told any staff not to deliver them .

    PS Water charges begin 1 week today !


  • #118
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ben101 wrote: »
    Because the Sky stuff is mostly junk,info about special offers etc.IW are just fishing for names by sending out "the occupier" hoping they will get some people to fill in their details.It would be in IW's benefit to make sure they have names on them otherwise you are not going to get too many people volunteering to pay IW unless they have a name to chase down in case of non payment.How can you prosecute "the occupier" and send him/her a fine or to jail?You could have ten people sharing a house ,what then?

    That's all irrelevant to post delivery. If you can delivery Sky you can deliver IW.


  • #119
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    MYOB wrote: »
    That's all irrelevant to post delivery. If you can delivery Sky you can deliver IW.

    You can't set up a billing system sending out en masse without names of the people who will pay the bill ,thats just crazy.What will happen is IW will come looking for their money by registered letter eventually ,logistically it would grind down the postal system to a crawl,Instead of getting a handful of reg a day you could be getting several hundred ,most of which will be refused and would cost An Post to cover OT for staff.Imagine if you had to get a signature for 2 or 3 hundred gas bills on your route of 800 or so houses and fill in dockets for those that you couldn't get an answer!You have a name on every utility bill so why should IW be different?


  • #120
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ben101 wrote: »
    You can't set up a billing system sending out en masse without names of the people who will pay the bill ,thats just crazy.What will happen is IW will come looking for their money by registered letter eventually ,logistically it would grind down the postal system to a crawl,Instead of getting a handful of reg a day you could be getting several hundred ,most of which will be refused and would cost An Post to cover OT for staff.Imagine if you had to get a signature for 2 or 3 hundred gas bills on your route of 800 or so houses and fill in dockets for those that you couldn't get an answer!You have a name on every utility bill so why should IW be different?

    Again, not relevant to deliveries now. Supposition over registered letters in the future is irrelevant to the current day.

    The content of a letter that An Post have been paid to deliver is irrelevant also

    This sounds like anti charges staff selectively refusing to do the job they're paid for and nothing else, giving incredibly poor and debunkable reasons


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  • #121
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    MYOB wrote: »
    Again, not relevant to deliveries now. Supposition over registered letters in the future is irrelevant to the current day.

    The content of a letter that An Post have been paid to deliver is irrelevant also

    This sounds like anti charges staff selectively refusing to do the job they're paid for and nothing else, giving incredibly poor and debunkable reasons

    Staff don't have the authority to do that ,you would get fired.Its an order from higher up the food chain and An Post are just trying to avoid a train wreck later on.Do me a favour and go get a payslip ,gas bill ,electric bill,UPC bill ,tax demand,etc, etc ,etc,.Do you notice something?Thats right,they all have a NAME on them.So instead of having a go at An Post why not have a go at IW for trying to bill people with no name!Good look with chasing "MR Occupier" through the courts for payment IW:rolleyes:


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