Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

sdanseo · 01-07-2010 6:14pm

steve-o wrote: »

I can't see why one particular group of people is more deserving of a direct service. It's going to be a network, not Carlsbergland with door-to-door service for all. Many will be able to get to Stephen's Green on Dart or Metro and change to Luas there. Others living on Line D could get there with 2 changes. Passengers travelling on DART between northside and southside will need to make a change at Pearse, and I haven't seen any outcry yet. Passengers generally don't mind enroute changes if the rail network is reliable and frequent. If the problem is integrated ticketing then surely IE and RPA can be forced to co-operate by 3018 or whenever all this is all built.

FYP

Pete_Cavan · 01-07-2010 6:18pm

steve-o wrote: »

The BX part of this is so badly thought out. The Dawson St to College Green corridor is too narrow for both Luas and buses. Luas is either going to be painfully slow or the RPA plan to evict the buses and there's no apparent plan as to where they'll go. A hell of a lot more people use buses than will use Luas.

This has been discussed on this thread before. Buses in the city centre are loud, ugly, slow and should be kept to a minimum. It is a fact that rail systems are more likely to see people leave their car for public transport. It is a lot easier to have five rail lines with fixed routes which are easily understood than to have thousands of buses travelling over one hundred different routes. The Westmoreland Street/College Green area will be severely disrupted during MN construction anyway so they will need a plan for this area anyway regardless of BXD.

The Green line will be integrated with Metro and Dart and Stephen's Green. Connecting it to the red line adds very little other than satisfying an irrational desire to connect the Luas lines for the sake of completeness. A relatively small proportion of Green line passengers will actually be going to Red line or line D destinations, and even without BX they would all be reachable with another connection.

I cant understand how people continually miss the point here. BXD is another step in a move towards an integrated rail network for Dublin, along with the interconnector and Metro North. The end result will be five rail lines (2 Dart, 2 Luas, 1 Metro), each stretching from a different suburb and travelling through the city centre. The whole system will be linked and there will be a large number of journeys and destinations available all over the city. People to travel from; Stillorgan to the airport, Tallaght to Mater Hospital, Maynooth to DCU, Dun Loaghaire to the Point, Swords to O'Connell Street, Dundrum to Heuston, Ballymun to Docklands, Hazelhatch to DIT Grangegorman Campus, Clonsilla to St Stephens Green with only one change. See what I mean by an integrated network. I have no idea how you would go about making these journeys by bus.

steve-o wrote: »

Why can't the Green line extension go somewhere else? How about down Baggot St to Lansdowne Road? (Merrion Row is a bit skinny but the rest of the route looks straightforward).

Why on earth would you want to do that. So instead of having a rail line running north-south through the city centre you would have a rail line coming from the south and turning back south again, basically doubling back on itself, when it touches the city centre. How does this make any sense and how would it encourage people to use public transport?

steve-o wrote: »

Why can't Line D take a route away from O'Connell St? How about a route from Broadstone to Christchurch, giving connections to Dart underground while still crossing the Red line.

What you are talking about here in Luas line E, which was originally proposed to run from Broadstone to Rathfarnham via Christchurch, Harolds Cross and Terenure. The
section between Broadstone and Christchurch presented a number of engineering difficulties including insufficient vertical clearance at Christchurch Arch, the structural insufficiency of O’Donovan Rossa Bridge and the gradient of Winetavern Street. For this reason the study concluded that the most feasible alignment would terminate in the City Centre at Christchurch. Again this is a pointless route and would add very little to the network.

steve-o wrote: »

Am I completely mad?

Yes

KC61 · 01-07-2010 9:48pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This has been discussed on this thread before. Buses in the city centre are loud, ugly, slow and should be kept to a minimum.

I must be dreaming so when every time the bus beats the tram from Heuston to O'Connell Street. Please get real here - the bus is faster in the city centre and that I am afraid is a fact. The LUAS has an advantage only when it is segregated from other transport forms.

The fact that you think buses are loud and ugly are hardly reasons to spend millions of EURO on a tram project. They are merely your opinion. All of the Dublin Bus fleet meet every environmental requirement set by the EU.

I don't disagree that there is a serious image issue in people's perceptions of the bus as a form of transport that Dublin Bus and other operators need to address, and hopefully the Network Direct project will deal with that with more direct routes, more on-street priority and a full roll out of real time passenger information.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

People to travel from; Stillorgan to the airport, Tallaght to Mater Hospital, Maynooth to DCU, Dun Loaghaire to the Point, Swords to O'Connell Street, Dundrum to Heuston, Ballymun to Docklands, Hazelhatch to DIT Grangegorman Campus, Clonsilla to St Stephens Green with only one change. See what I mean by an integrated network. I have no idea how you would go about making these journeys by bus.

This post suggests that you really have not got a clue about the existing network that is in place - that of Dublin Bus. Most of those journeys quoted above can be done either directly by bus or with one change between relatively high frequency services, and after the network review project far more cross-city options will be available. If you don't actually know anything about the existing/planned bus network and at the same time are trying to advocate the LUAS BXD as better, surely that totally demeans your argument as you don't actually know what options already exist or are planned?

As it is if I were travelling from Tallaght to the south city area I would always take the bus as it beats the tram hands down and will continue to do so even if BXD is built.

You might have a point regarding the option of extending to Finglas - but please come up with some coherent thinking to justify line BXD rather than the drivel in the paragraphs quoted above.

steve-o · 01-07-2010 11:06pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

People to travel from; Stillorgan to the airport, Tallaght to Mater Hospital, Maynooth to DCU, Dun Loaghaire to the Point, Swords to O'Connell Street, Dundrum to Heuston, Ballymun to Docklands, Hazelhatch to DIT Grangegorman Campus, Clonsilla to St Stephens Green with only one change. See what I mean by an integrated network. I have no idea how you would go about making these journeys by bus.

Glad you have the entire city sorted.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Stillorgan to the airport

Aircoach or 46A to city and Metro to airport.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Tallaght to Mater Hospital

Nothing to do with line BX

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Maynooth to DCU

Nothing to do with line BX

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Dun Loaghaire to the Point

Nothing to do with line BX

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Swords to O'Connell Street

Nothing to do with line BX

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Dundrum to Heuston

Luas to Stephen's Green, change to DART

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Ballymun to Docklands

Nothing to do with line BX

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Hazelhatch to DIT Grangegorman Campus

Nothing to do with line BX

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Clonsilla to St Stephens Green

DART, change at Pearse or DART, change to Metro at Drumcondra.

Pete_Cavan · 03-07-2010 12:37pm

KC61 wrote: »

The fact that you think buses are loud and ugly are hardly reasons to spend millions of EURO on a tram project. They are merely your opinion. All of the Dublin Bus fleet meet every environmental requirement set by the EU.

I don't disagree that there is a serious image issue in people's perceptions of the bus as a form of transport that Dublin Bus and other operators need to address, and hopefully the Network Direct project will deal with that with more direct routes, more on-street priority and a full roll out of real time passenger information.

The original question was why should buses be evicted from the Dawson St to College Green corridor to accommodate the Luas when "a hell of a lot more people use buses than will use Luas". It is extremely short sighted to think that we should block up the city even more with more buses instead of creating an integrated rail network. Regardless of my own opinions of buses here are some facts about rail transport compared to buses;

The Luas is higher capacity, green line trams can carry 360 passengers while buses carry less than 100 people
Luas is most cases (although not in all cases) is faster because most of the route will be grade separated or have on-street priority. Buses have to contend with a lot on their journey which can add to travel time, traffic lights, road works, private motorists (even designated bus lanes can be effected by motorists blocking yellow boxes, etc.) other buses (if your bus is behind one or two other buses, you may have to stop at every stop even when no one is getting off your bus)
Rail often attracts more riders, particularly discretionary riders (travellers, also called choice riders, who could drive rather than use transit) and so is particularly effective at reducing traffic and parking problems.
The Luas runs to a set timetable with time between trams only five minutes at peak times. Even with real time passenger information at bus stops you may arrive at the stop and discover you have to wait 15 minutes for the next bus. Also Luas is more frequent at peak times while buses are slower because of the extra traffic on the roads.
It will be a lot easier to plan your journey with the rail network because it will be depicted as five lines on one map, all stops can be shown as well as link stations where you can change to another line to extend your journey, as opposed to 172 radial, cross-city and peripheral bus routes.
The Luas runs on electricity while buses run on petroleum products so it is cleaner and cheaper to run trams.
Rail stations often serve as a catalyst for more accessible development patterns with increased density (residents, employees and business activity per acre). It also results in increased property values near transit stations. Basically a new Luas line can stimulate intense development in the area while a new bus route will not.
The initial costs may be a lot higher than that of bus services but rail offers lower operating costs per passenger-mile, particularly where transit demand is high. The Luas also has lower maintenance costs because the rolling stock can last up to four times as long as a bus and they are easier to maintain then a fleet of buses.

And in my own opinion the Luas is a lot more attractive that buses and College Green will look all the better for having s sleek shinny new tram system running through it then it does with hundreds of big ugly buses shunting along, not to mention all the buses that seem to get abandoned there.

So I wouldn’t worry about displacing a few buses because it will be worth it in the end. Buses will still be necessary, but should be limited to a number of selected routes through the city centre. Buses can also be used as feeder services to the rail network and to provide orbital routes around the city. It is crazy to think that buses should be retained as the main mode of transport to and from the city centre.

KC61 · 03-07-2010 1:15pm

Listen, even with Metro North, LUAS Green & Red & BXD lines, DART Interconnector completed the bus will still be the main form of public transport in Dublin and people need to realise that and give it the investment and priority that it needs.

7 out of the 13 radial QBCs will still have little or no rail penetration.

I don't know how much plainer I can put this.

To travel from Tallaght to the city centre is often faster by bus than by LUAS. To travel from Heuston to the city centre is always faster by bus than by LUAS.

I would strongly suggest that you brush up on Dublin Bus' Network Redesign plans which see a complete redesign of the bus network involving the removal of most city centre termini and far more cross-city routes. It also involves reducing the numbers of buses through the city centre by merging routes and delivering standard interval high frequency services.

Where incidentally does a single bus get abandoned on College Green? There are no termini there. Buses layover between journeys at their termini, in the same way trams and trains layover at their destinations.

You are painting a picture of ideals without actually researching the facts. The majority of passengers in Dublin will not benefit from line BXD.

FreudianSlippers · 03-07-2010 2:03pm

This may be not appropriate or possible, but I was wondering why they don't build the BXD as planned, but change the Metro North so that it begins at Grangegorman and goes from there underground to Mater and follow the rest of the planned MN line.
Does that make sense? It would cut quite a bit off the price I'd imagine. They could presumably use the same tracks but the BXD trains would continue on to Boombridge and the MN would go to airport.

L1011 · 03-07-2010 3:24pm

OisinT wrote: »

This may be not appropriate or possible, but I was wondering why they don't build the BXD as planned, but change the Metro North so that it begins at Grangegorman and goes from there underground to Mater and follow the rest of the planned MN line.
Does that make sense? It would cut quite a bit off the price I'd imagine. They could presumably use the same tracks but the BXD trains would continue on to Boombridge and the MN would go to airport.

Would destroy the number of slots available for MN so its not a runner.

monument · 03-07-2010 5:22pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Luas is higher capacity, green line trams can carry 360 passengers while buses carry less than 100 people

It does not matter how much each tram or bus can hold when high frequency QBCs can hold nearly just as much as Luas on street.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Luas is most cases (although not in all cases) is faster because most of the route will be grade separated or have on-street priority. Buses have to contend with a lot on their journey which can add to travel time, traffic lights, road works, private motorists (even designated bus lanes can be effected by motorists blocking yellow boxes, etc.) other buses (if your bus is behind one or two other buses, you may have to stop at every stop even when no one is getting off your bus)

QBCs can be built better or improved. Better traffic light priority is on the way for buses. And amazingly trams also get blocked by motorists blocking yellow boxes.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

And in my own opinion the Luas is a lot more attractive that buses and College Green will look all the better for having s sleek shinny new tram system running through it then it does with hundreds of big ugly buses shunting along, not to mention all the buses that seem to get abandoned there.

Order some buses that look like trams, or just repaint like trams and you should be a bit more happy?

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It is crazy to think that buses should be retained as the main mode of transport to and from the city centre.

Buses in London carry more than the Tube, so I'm not sure if it's that crazy at all.

KC61 wrote: »

Listen, even with Metro North, LUAS Green & Red & BXD lines, DART Interconnector completed the bus will still be the main form of public transport in Dublin and people need to realise that and give it the investment and priority that it needs.

7 out of the 13 radial QBCs will still have little or no rail penetration.

I don't know how much plainer I can put this.

KC61, I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the importance of buses, and buses continuing importance. And hopefully Network Direct, and real time information are successes and improve things.

But...

Errr... what? No rail near the QBCs?...

 Malahide Road 61% -- (none, but between Metro and Dart)
 Clontarf 61% -- improved Dart
 Lucan 52% -- Luas and Dart
 Blanchardstown 51% -- Dart and err Metro West
 Finglas 49% -- BXD should at some stage extend there
 Swords 49% -- Metro North
 Stillorgan 45% -- (none, but between Luas and Dart)
 Howth Road 42% -- improved Dart
 South Clondalkin 42% -- Dart, Metro West
 Tallaght 40% -- Luas, Metro West
 North Clondalkin 41% -- Dart, Metro West
 Rathfarnham 38% -- (none, but Luas nearby)
 Ballymun 38% -- Metro North
 Rock Road 28% -- Dart
 Bray 28% -- Dart, Luas

(from the Deloite report... percentages are "current bus modal share and the proportion of people crossing the canal cordon between 7am and 10am along QBCs"?)

According to the QBC monitoring report (2007), city wide, Luas and rail already had a total modal share of 21% while buses had 28%. Dart Underground and Metro North -- if built -- will see that jump. But the aim should be to increase the modal share of both.

I'm not trying to undermined buses, I'm just pointing out rail is far more important than you're making it out to be.

It's a bit of a mute point to look at a QBCs and say that's not served by rail, first because rail will likely take a different route, and secondly because rail and buses are needed to serve many areas (look at the QBC along the Dart).

As many areas as possible should be served well by public transport, often that will mean a mix of modes. Improving rail also give extra scope to allow you to give more bus priority.

KC61 wrote: »

To travel from Heuston to the city centre is always faster by bus than by LUAS.

In theory buses from Heuston always beats, but in practice I've found that you can be left waiting for a bus, left waiting on a bus for it to leave, one or two people stopping between Heuston and towns erodes bus' time, and there can be heavy traffic along the quays, most notably nearer to the city center.

KC61 wrote: »

The majority of passengers in Dublin will not benefit from line BXD.

Are projects only valid when they do? The way I see it the two of you are extremists, one a bus extremist and the other a rail extremist.

L1011 · 03-07-2010 6:11pm

monument wrote: »

Order some buses that look like trams, or just repaint like trams and you should be a bit more happy? )

Wright StreetCar's anyone?

Saw one parked up in Leeds, comical unit.

Judgement Day · 03-07-2010 6:19pm

Just out of interest, as I can't be arsed to trawl all the C+T/Infrastructure threads, would some of the main posters on this topic indicate whether or not they are regular Dublin Bus commuters? In my experience I find that in general, and amongst the chattering in classes in particular, that people who advocate buses as solutions to transport problems are doing so on economic grounds and wouldn't be seen dead on a bus themselves. It is a plain fact that rail, be it DART/Commuter or Luas is the only option that will draw in enough former car users to reduce congestion in the city.
That said, as I have already stated I can't for the life of me see the point of joining the Green & Red Luas lines - especially in the way that is being proposed. The campaign has been politically and media driven by the same idiots who, in many cases, opposed the building of the Luas in the first place.

KC61 · 03-07-2010 8:03pm

monument wrote: »

KC61, I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the importance of buses, and buses continuing importance. And hopefully Network Direct, and real time information are successes and improve things.

But...

Errr... what? No rail near the QBCs?...

 Malahide Road 61% -- (none, but between Metro and Dart)
 Clontarf 61% -- improved Dart
 Lucan 52% -- Luas and Dart
 Blanchardstown 51% -- Dart and err Metro West
 Finglas 49% -- BXD should at some stage extend there
 Swords 49% -- Metro North
 Stillorgan 45% -- (none, but between Luas and Dart)
 Howth Road 42% -- improved Dart
 South Clondalkin 42% -- Dart, Metro West
 Tallaght 40% -- Luas, Metro West
 North Clondalkin 41% -- Dart, Metro West
 Rathfarnham 38% -- (none, but Luas nearby)
 Ballymun 38% -- Metro North
 Rock Road 28% -- Dart
 Bray 28% -- Dart, Luas

(from the Deloite report... percentages are "current bus modal share and the proportion of people crossing the canal cordon between 7am and 10am along QBCs"?)

I never said that there was no rail near the QBCs. What I said was that for 7 out of 13 QBC's will have little penetration along much of their routes. You can't just quote examples where the rail is at one end only. What about the rest of the route? Even the Swords QBC will have a reasonably long section (Cloghran to Whitehall) where the rail option is not really convenient.

How can you suggest that the LUAS is anywhere near the Rathfarnham QBC? That is nonsense. I don't know too many of passengers walking from Rathfarnham, Terenure or Harolds Cross to the LUAS rather than use the 16/a or 74a? You have to be realistic here.

To suggest that LUAS or rail are an option for many passengers on the Stillorgan QBC is not realistic. Not too many people will use the DART or LUAS from city centre to UCD for example.

There are a myriad of journeys that will not be facilitated by any of the rail projects and these people seem to be conveniently forgotten about in all these discussions, and it seems perfectly reasonable to some here that they should pay a very large price for the BXD line through the city centre.

I am being realistic and looking at it if DART Interconnector, Metro North and BXD to Broombridge get built - not including Lucan LUAS or Metro West, the latter being purely orbital and not relevant to the 13 radial QBCs.

The 13 QBCs and their rail options are:

Rock Road - DART (all along it)
Stillorgan/Bray - LUAS at Stillorgan (Kilmacud Upper only)/Sandyford/Cherrywood; DART at Bray
Templeogue - LUAS at Tallaght end only
Rathfarnham - None
Greenhills - LUAS at outer end; Limited LUAS at Drimnagh
South Clondalkin - DART at western end; Limited LUAS at Drimnagh
North Clondalkin - DART at western end; Limited LUAS at James St
Lucan - DART at western end
Finglas - None
Ballymun - Metro North
Swords - Metro North at outer and inner ends
Malahide Road - DART at outer end only
Howth Road - DART all along it

Bizarrely, the buses along the DART line are all packed every day - the 4/4a and 7 leaving town in the morning peak all have standing loads. The 145 is one of the busiest routes in the city from Bray to the City Centre.

monument wrote: »

The way I see it the two of you are extremists, one a bus extremist and the other a rail extremist.

Actually I do use all of bus, LUAS and rail on a regular basis. However I gave up on the Red line when I realised over repeated trips that the bus was actually faster.

When I see someone trying to justify this project by being so dismissive of the bus, and not understanding the serious impact that this project will have on the bus network and bus journey times, and while not actually bothering to do any research into what is happening in terms of the bus network then I really have to point out the flaws in the argument.

I do strongly believe that real improvements in the bus services will be delivered from Network Direct if it is implemented in line with Deloitte's recommendations and that it is quite possible that the money to potentially be invested in line BXD could deliver far better value being invested elsewhere.

KC61 · 03-07-2010 8:07pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Just out of interest, as I can't be arsed to trawl all the C+T/Infrastructure threads, would some of the main posters on this topic indicate whether or not they are regular Dublin Bus commuters? In my experience I find that in general, and amongst the chattering in classes in particular, that people who advocate buses as solutions to transport problems are doing so on economic grounds and wouldn't be seen dead on a bus themselves. It is a plain fact that rail, be it DART/Commuter or Luas is the only option that will draw in enough former car users to reduce congestion in the city.
That said, as I have already stated I can't for the life of me see the point of joining the Green & Red Luas lines - especially in the way that is being proposed. The campaign has been politically and media driven by the same idiots who, in many cases, opposed the building of the Luas in the first place.

I use a minimum 4 buses per day cross-city along with rail and LUAS on a regular basis.

sdanseo · 03-07-2010 8:14pm

I'm a regular bus user also, I work in different places and bus in 50pc of the time drive 50pc. I;ve more money for parking than I have sense or I'd use the bus a lot more :P

I also use the train though as it can be quicker.

monument · 03-07-2010 9:03pm

KC61 wrote: »

I never said that there was no rail near the QBCs. What I said was that for 7 out of 13 QBC's will have little penetration along much of their routes. You can't just quote examples where the rail is at one end only. What about the rest of the route?

...

Bizarrely, the buses along the DART line are all packed every day - the 4/4a and 7 leaving town in the morning peak all have standing loads. The 145 is one of the busiest routes in the city from Bray to the City Centre.

Again, I'm mostly agree with you. As I said in the last post

...

It's a bit of a mute point to look at a QBCs and say that's not served by rail, first because rail will likely take a different route, and secondly because rail and buses are needed to serve many areas (look at the QBC along the Dart).

KC61 wrote: »

Even the Swords QBC will have a reasonably long section (Cloghran to Whitehall) where the rail option is not really convenient.

That may be a problem, for the Swords QBC and also the Ballymun buses routes. I've talked to people about this before, it brings loads of questions none of which been looked at or answered.

KC61 wrote: »

the latter being purely orbital and not relevant to the 13 radial QBCs.

Yes, it is. All parts of the transport network should be looked at. Metro West trams can be used to extend the reach of the two planned Dart / Commuter lines, Metro North, and the current Luas, the Lucan Luas, and in the longer term possibly BXD / Finglas Luas.

Passengers are more willing to make connection on rail systems than bus.

Pete_Cavan · 04-07-2010 11:11am

KC61 wrote: »

When I see someone trying to justify this project by being so dismissive of the bus, and not understanding the serious impact that this project will have on the bus network and bus journey times, and while not actually bothering to do any research into what is happening in terms of the bus network then I really have to point out the flaws in the argument.

I do strongly believe that real improvements in the bus services will be delivered from Network Direct if it is implemented in line with Deloitte's recommendations and that it is quite possible that the money to potentially be invested in line BXD could deliver far better value being invested elsewhere.

Hang on a second, I am the one who presented you with the facts on why developing a proper rail network will offer many more benefits to Dublin city in the future when compared to concentrating on buses, post #126 if you want to read it again and maybe you could address it this time instead of just repeating yourself. Your only argument is that more people use buses at present but that is because there was no alternative. Even after all proposed rail and light rail lines are built buses may carry more passengers but we are still better served building the rail network and increasing the proportion of people using rail for the reasons I gave above.

And monument I am not a "rail extremist" but in this case, that of Luas line BXD which is what the discussion started out as and which I have been sticking to and not banging on about QBCs which is a different issue, I think light rail wins over buses hands down. It is a well known fact (theres that word again) that light rail systems are the best mode of transport for a city centre because of the advantages offered in terms of capacity, frequency, reducing private motorist journeys, stimulating development, journey times, environmental impact and lower operating and maintenance costs. Again give me some good reasons why we should continue clogging up the city centre with buses and I will happily change my stance on the issue. And no more about QBCs because they serve out laying areas and granted, buses are best suited to longer journeys but BXD is slap bang in the middle of the city. O'Connell Street is not a QBC.

You cant just consider line BXD in isolation because it is part of a network and will link with all other rail lines (both Dart lines, MN and Luas Red) which will draw passengers from these lines with people extending their journeys onto BXD and will add passenger numbers to the other lines as well. It would be interesting to see how many people use buses to get them to a rail station to get them to where they want to be. Rail lines adding passenger numbers to buses, score another point for rail.

I know plenty about Network Direct and I know it is just an attempt by DB to reduce costs because it is operating at a huge lose after 15 million passengers switched to the Luas, since it was launched six years ago, and to upgraded dart services. They will continue to loss passengers as the rail network develops. And theres another advantage of the Luas, it has given DB some real competition and forced them to provide a half decent service instead of just of just living off government money. At least the Luas is a profitable transport system.

monument wrote: »

It does not matter how much each tram or bus can hold when high frequency QBCs can hold nearly just as much as Luas on street.

Yes it does matter. You can either have one tram with a life span of up to 60 years, running on electricity, getting people out of cars and bringing them into the city centre or else you need four buses to carry the same number of people, drinking petrol and needing to be replaced every 12 -15 years, doing very little to reduce the traffic it has to contend with and causing congestion in the city.

KC61 wrote: »

To travel from Tallaght to the city centre is often faster by bus than by LUAS. To travel from Heuston to the city centre is always faster by bus than by LUAS.

Im sure this has a lot to do with the Luas taking private cars off the road, the presents of the Luas is what makes the bus faster than the Luas, score another point for the Luas.

Judgement Day · 04-07-2010 11:37am

Pete_Cavan - I know we are veering off topic here but your point about clean electrical operation is often overlooked in the bus/luas debate. The only time the air in the city centre becomes breathable is when there is a bus strike - I remember with nostalgia a prolonged strike in the early 1980s and the air quality was never better. No need for any clever clogs to come on and tell us that the electricity which powers Luas is produced from fossil fuels - maybe, but the by-product is not spewed out in your face and does not produce a horrible oily mess on the street surfaces.

monument · 04-07-2010 12:17pm

Anyway, back on topic, here's recent photos of the Broadstone alignment.

Biodiversity may rear its head as a problem.

See the full set of pic in the above line.

Judgement Day · 04-07-2010 1:46pm

Thanks for link. Yes, whatever development there may be of the old alignment to Liffey Junction some wildlife is going to be upset and that includes the Dutch Gold merchants too.

KC61 · 05-07-2010 8:05am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Hang on a second, I am the one who presented you with the facts on why developing a proper rail network will offer many more benefits to Dublin city in the future when compared to concentrating on buses, post #126 if you want to read it again and maybe you could address it this time instead of just repeating yourself. Your only argument is that more people use buses at present but that is because there was no alternative. Even after all proposed rail and light rail lines are built buses may carry more passengers but we are still better served building the rail network and increasing the proportion of people using rail for the reasons I gave above.

And monument I am not a "rail extremist" but in this case, that of Luas line BXD which is what the discussion started out as and which I have been sticking to and not banging on about QBCs which is a different issue, I think light rail wins over buses hands down. It is a well known fact (theres that word again) that light rail systems are the best mode of transport for a city centre because of the advantages offered in terms of capacity, frequency, reducing private motorist journeys, stimulating development, journey times, environmental impact and lower operating and maintenance costs. Again give me some good reasons why we should continue clogging up the city centre with buses and I will happily change my stance on the issue. And no more about QBCs because they serve out laying areas and granted, buses are best suited to longer journeys but BXD is slap bang in the middle of the city. O'Connell Street is not a QBC.

You cant just consider line BXD in isolation because it is part of a network and will link with all other rail lines (both Dart lines, MN and Luas Red) which will draw passengers from these lines with people extending their journeys onto BXD and will add passenger numbers to the other lines as well. It would be interesting to see how many people use buses to get them to a rail station to get them to where they want to be. Rail lines adding passenger numbers to buses, score another point for rail.

I know plenty about Network Direct and I know it is just an attempt by DB to reduce costs because it is operating at a huge lose after 15 million passengers switched to the Luas, since it was launched six years ago, and to upgraded dart services. They will continue to loss passengers as the rail network develops. And theres another advantage of the Luas, it has given DB some real competition and forced them to provide a half decent service instead of just of just living off government money. At least the Luas is a profitable transport system.

Yes it does matter. You can either have one tram with a life span of up to 60 years, running on electricity, getting people out of cars and bringing them into the city centre or else you need four buses to carry the same number of people, drinking petrol and needing to be replaced every 12 -15 years, doing very little to reduce the traffic it has to contend with and causing congestion in the city.

Im sure this has a lot to do with the Luas taking private cars off the road, the presents of the Luas is what makes the bus faster than the Luas, score another point for the Luas.

I am all for developing the rail network - I have repeatedly stated my support for both DART Interconnector and Metro North. I just think building a LUAS line that will cause mayhem for virtually every bus route through the city centre is going too far.

The reason I brought the QBCs into this thread is entirely relevant as it demonstrates how many people will still depend on the bus to get to and from or across the city centre, and who will be affected adversely by the construction and operation of line BXD when they reach the city.

That is the relevance - a far greater number of people will be adversely affected than will benefit.

In case you haven't noticed, buses are not "clogging" up the city centre area. Since the College Green bus gate opened they are moving quite quickly through the city centre.

Your facile interpretation of Network Direct really demonstrates that you have not got a clue about what it is all about. It will deliver cost savings, but the primary element is about implementing the recommendations of the Deloitte report (http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/11393-0.pdf) by redesigning the network to deliver direct, high frequency integrated services along the QBCs. This when you add in RTPI, extra on-street bus priority, and improved customer information means that we get a completely redesigned bus service that should meet what most passengers need. It will also remove most of the city centre termini so that buses are not parked in the city streets to the same degree.

I very much doubt that the reason the 65/65b can be faster than the LUAS to/from Tallaght can be ascribed to it. Those buses go a completely different route. You really are clutching at straws.

monument · 05-07-2010 11:27am

KC61 wrote: »

That is the relevance - a far greater number of people will be adversely affected than will benefit.

The key thing here is that -- as with other projects -- the adverse affects are not overwhelming.

KC61 wrote: »

In case you haven't noticed, buses are not "clogging" up the city centre area. Since the College Green bus gate opened they are moving quite quickly through the city centre.

Buses are still stopped in too many places for too long. Stopping this will benefit bus users the most. And, yes, I know Network Direct will help with this issue, but more will need to be done -- hopefully we will finally have one smartcard with a "purse" ability and after this cash fares can be jacked up to get almost everybody using the smartcards. It worked in London. But the removal of buses parking on main routes in the city must also happen.

Victor · 05-07-2010 3:07pm

MYOB wrote: »

5 car.

The 3000-series trams were 30m long and had 3 sections.

The 4000-series trams are 40m long and have 5 sections.

The 5000-series trams are 42m long and have 7 sections.

The BXD stops seem to be designed for 50m trams.

L1011 · 05-07-2010 3:12pm

Victor wrote: »

The 3000-series trams were 30m long and had 3 sections.

The 4000-series trams are 40m long and have 5 sections.

The 5000-series trams are 42m long and have 7 sections.

The BXD stops seem to be designed for 50m trams.

Oops. In my defence, I've not seen a 5000 series, I just assumed they were 5 section seeing as they're similar length

KC61 · 05-07-2010 5:09pm

monument wrote: »

The key thing here is that -- as with other projects -- the adverse affects are not overwhelming.

Buses are still stopped in too many places for too long. Stopping this will benefit bus users the most. And, yes, I know Network Direct will help with this issue, but more will need to be done -- hopefully we will finally have one smartcard with a "purse" ability and after this cash fares can be jacked up to get almost everybody using the smartcards. It worked in London. But the removal of buses parking on main routes in the city must also happen.

I think that I'm blue in the face saying (at this stage) that the vast majority of city centre termini will vanish under Network Direct, so that is a moot point.

I am afraid that my understanding is that while there are plans to offer a small discount on cash bus fares using the electronic purse, the differential between it and the cash fare will be nothing like that in London.

Also, initially there are no plans to implement a cap equivalent to the appropriate one day ticket.

monument · 05-07-2010 5:29pm

KC61 wrote: »

I think that I'm blue in the face saying (at this stage) that the vast majority of city centre termini will vanish under Network Direct, so that is a moot point.

I am afraid that my understanding is that while there are plans to offer a small discount on cash bus fares using the electronic purse, the differential between it and the cash fare will be nothing like that in London.

Also, initially there are no plans to implement a cap equivalent to the appropriate one day ticket.

Yes, what I'm saying is agreeing with you, Network Direct should solve a lot of it. All I'm saying is more has to be done, every effort to speed up bus dwell times as well as stopping buses in the city centre.

Also, had a feeling (or educated guess) that they were not going to cap one day use. Typical from what we've seen of the project so far.

Trick of the Tail · 05-07-2010 10:52pm

Where did the line from Broadstone go to?

A

L1011 · 05-07-2010 11:10pm

alinton wrote: »

Where did the line from Broadstone go to?

A

Liffey Junction.

Originally Galway, Broadstone was the start of the MGWR line to there. Mileposts from Liffey Junction out are measured in it along whats now line code G, so from there to Mullingar on the Sligo line and Athlone to Galway.

xper · 06-07-2010 12:14am

KC61 wrote: »

Also, initially there are no plans to implement a cap equivalent to the appropriate one day ticket.

"Ah yeah. Sure jaysus, bud, we couldn't have an incentive that might people start usin' the yolk. Wheredya think ye are? London?"

FFS

eia340600 · 06-07-2010 1:12am

KC61 wrote: »

In case you haven't noticed, buses are not "clogging" up the city centre area. Since the College Green bus gate opened they are moving quite quickly through the city centre.

KC61 wrote: »

While I agree with most of your points, buses are, most definitely, still clogging up the city's streets.While the bus will carry approximately 3 times the amount that trains/trams will in 10 years, every bus that we get rid off is a victory for the city's asthetics and air quality

KC61 wrote: »

Network Direct

Is a giant leap in the right direction.

KC61 wrote: »

The 65/65b can be faster than the LUAS to/from Tallaght

As someone who's most used forms of transport are the 65/b and the LUAS red, I can honestly say that the LUAS beats the bus every time..I actually find it easier to get a luas to tallaght and then change to a 65/b or a 50 to complete my journey.However, as you siad, they have completly different routes and are only comparable for the begining and final part of their journeys'.

GizAGoOfYerGee · 06-07-2010 11:29pm

Can anyone explain to me why the RPA decided to route southbound trams down Marlborough Street and D'Olier Street? Is there a capacity problem on OCS and Westmorland Street?

Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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