National Postcodes to be introduced

Aard wrote: »

Tbh I think he just wants to demonstrate how simple it is to devise a system, and is frustrated as to why it's taking so long.

Thanks for clarifying Aard. This is simple frustration, Post Codes are EASY to design, you just have to tell everybody what theirs is is the only hard bit!

It is just yet another example of how the government consistently shows it cannot grasp simple infrastructure (another example being the Digital TV switchover - covered very well on the tech thread).

I am not trying to sell anything here, I simply put together basic bits of code and paid, off my own back, to get a website up to show how easy it is!

In fact it took more time proving why I deserved a .ie web address than it did to write the code to generate the postcodes!

I think my example is an easy straight forward way of introducing a postode system without wasting millions, which the government will naturally do, introducing a long winded system that is not practicle, doesnt work or only brings you to an area and not an exact house. I just think a system that uses what is there already instead of reinventing the wheel is the way to go. Then again if the UK system works just copy it, again dont reinvent the wheel.

Just say there are 1 million propertys/commercial buildings in Ireland, just a figure plucked out of the air. If 800,000 or 900,000 of these have numbers, address etc why should they be punished for the few that dont. It would be much easier to give those few numbers that dont then punish the majority that do.

I use a sat nav system with work, everytime i go to a new client I map them in the satnav at their front door so that we can get an exact delivery address. Over the years of doing this the locations have moved to 2 or 3 doors down or accross the road. It must be to do with the better quality of giving exact locations compared to the past but this a problem none the less.

Postcodes are also a big issue for eCommerce and web businesses. I've worked on web stores in the UK/US and users just take for granted entering a postcode to get delivery/availability/store information or to map the user to a location very easily which can have huge benefits. Thy can also reduce the amount of form filling needed where a postcode can fill in most of the data needed.

To do this on Irish websites sites required more complex and off putting address forms for the user to fill in and cost time and money for businesses subscribe to address databases like the An Post geo directory, so many sites don't bother and are some times less useful because of it.

ForiegnNational wrote: »

ODTR 09/25 - page 5
Apart from Greece, Ireland is the only European member state that does not use a postal coding system.

Some we have something else in common with them, maybe there is an connection ?

Carawaystick wrote: »

France has a post code system - 5 numbers, the first two being the county leaving less than a thousand numbers for the code.

They just name everywhere so the postman knows where it is. Everywhere in a town of 10k or so has the same postcode. they just don't allow replication of street names n the same postcode. How it works in the country I've no idea.

Seems similar to here really.

Most countries assign names or numbers to rural roads. Then they assign individual numbers to houses or properties on each road. You can number each house sequentially (1,2,3 etc) or use a metric system (e.g. the road is blocked off in 10m segments so house no.15 is 150 metres from the start).

As others have mentioned, there is no reason why we couldn't use a system like this for addresses in rural areas along with zip type postal codes for the whole country.
Just like everywhere else in the developed world basically.

Here are some examples of addresses from Cavan and Monaghan ...

A purely geographical one is about as much use as asking people to put their OSI map reference down instead. In fact, why don't we just use that if we're going down that route...

Precisely. No need for made up names of roads to suit couriers, which would be disastrous as it has been in NI. Just use a coordinate, perhaps you could just some of the digits and county code e.g. instead of using 123456 067333 you could have something like MH234-673. Postcodes as used in many places are an obsolete pre-computer concept, lets move on.

MYOB wrote: »

You're missing my point entirely.


A coordinate based system lets you FIND places. It doesn't provide any of the (massive) advantages for logistics of knowing where somewhere *is* from its postcode. Look at the "Athlone, Co. Roscommon" problem as mentioned on this thread. A geo-postcode does sweet **** all to fix this. A proper postcode system elimates the problem entirely - for here, for "Drogheda, Co. Meath", "Dublin 15, Co. Meath", "Leixlip, Co. Dublin", etc, etc...

Just want to add my tuppence worth here. MYOB I don't mean to insult but these are not problems as such. Here's why. The smallest geographical area in Ireland is the townland. The next biggest is the Electoral District, the next biggest is the District Electoral Division and the next biggest is the Administrative County. Each geographical area is by definition within a defined townland, ED, DED and Administrative County.

Following my argument therefore for example Leixlip is not in Co. Dublin. However a particular townland near Leixlip which is in South Dublin might be near Leixlip but should not have a Leixlip address just because someone decides they want to have a Leixlip address.

To further follow my argument if I for example posted a letter with such a spurious address it should not be delivered or accepted.

It is the case that the placenames section of the Rural Dept (Eamon O Cuiv's old dept I don't know it's new name) has done a lot of work on the Irish names of townlands and published Statutory instuments with official translations. In a similar way each ED, DED and county is made up of defined named subordinate entities named in each official language.

In most cases the ED is left out of addresses and the DED has the name of the town or village with the local post office. Each townland should be 'tied' to a town in it's DED.

It should be therefore simple enough to have databases with this information and force everyone to comply. If wrong county on address then letters not delivered. If wrong post office town no delivery. If wrong county no delivery. People would soon comply when the important post wasn't delivered a few times and it cost them money.

The post code then could be some sort of grid within each townland making it easy to subdivide and find each house group of houses or whatever.

All of this would build on what is used already with little variation on things as they presently stand. In county border areas it might mean the 'local' post office changing in some cases. Those of us like myself who like local townlands would be accomodated and the and the subdivision by grid of the townlands would mean that the postie and the delivery guy could finally tell Tom Jones' place from his brother Jack's place over the road.

There would also be the added bonus if addresses were strictly adhered to that if for example Limerick City boundary wanted to expand into it's hinterland in Clare that the boundary could easily be legally changed. It would mean that the legal address would change to a different county in this case from Clare to Limerick City. Those who for traditional sporting reasons or whatever wanted to continue calling themselves Clare people could follow the traditional boundary for all non civic or administrative purposes but in dealing with the postal or civic authorities would have to comply with any change (No insult to Clare people or Limerick I just picked it as an example)

By way of comparison I doubt there are any places along the international border with Northern Ireland where people in for example Co. Louth claim that their physical address in Co. Louth is actually the other side of the border in Co. Down! (I'm not making any comment one way or the other on the rights wrongs or otherwise of why the border is there just the de facto position)

Hope this is easily followed by all. In cities same applies everywhere is in a townland of some sort if you go back to old maps!

baalthor wrote: »

Actually the DED is next up from the townland. Electoral Districts (or Electoral Areas) are much larger and are used for the purpose of dividing counties up for local elections. Neither DEDs or EAs have formed part of the address system in Ireland.

Here are a list of all the Irish geographical divisions (used by the state) that I can think of:

Townland
Electoral Division
Civil Parish
Barony
Rural District
Urban District
Electoral Area
Administrative County
Region
Province

These were introduced at different times for various purposes


The official addressing system for postal deliveries in Ireland did not always follow the adminsitrative county boundaries. The delivery area of a main post office could sometimes cross county boundaries.
Hence the official address of Bailiebrough PO, Co Cavan was (or is?) :
Bailieborough PO
Kells
Co Meath

In the past, people who wanted faster delivery would use the Post Office address hierarchy rather than the standard county one. This may explain Leixlip, County Dublin.



As I understand it the standard address format is:

1. Townland / Street / Road
2. Local Post Office
3. Postal Town
4. County

Nowadays you only need 1, 3 and 4 although lots of people still use 2.

I don't think the address system was built around EDs but of course the POs often share names with EDs

I realise I got the hierarchy of the system slightly wrong but it doesn't change the point about each being made up of defined subordinates. I realise also that the system was not (probably) built around EDs but they are a handy existing structure to use which i suspect in most cases coincide in name with the local post office as you acknowledge!

An interesting feature of our addressing system is its flexibilty. You can have different people in the same house actually using different addresses! .

Yes and no. I agree that this adds to the quaintness of our system however it also adds to my argument that people should not be allowed to add what they want to their address. The two people in this hypothetical situation mean that at least one of them is using the wrong address. Very annoying if you are trying to locate them and you don't have the local knowledge to let you know it's the same place. Your defined address by simple geography related to the map and the hirearchy of items 1,2 and 4 as you call them or Townland, related town (ED) and admin county creates a uniformity we can depend on enough to be reliable. Then if the townland is subdivided by grid, a combination of road names/numbers and house numbers we can all follow it fairly simply. [/QUOTE]

A pubicly available address database is a really good idea, refusing to deliver mail because the address is "wrong" is not.
Most postal companies are proud of the efforts they go to in trying to deliver mail to people like "Mr Jones, Cork"

I only mean to refuse in the extreme cases where persistent refusal to accept the correct address lingers. Obviously genuine errors would be tolerated however a publically available list of post town on the website of An post with their associated townlands and streets on drop down menus would in most cases solve this. The knowledge of the post code in addition would mean that a simple check for most addresses would meant that only in cases where you had no internet access or access to a copy of a reference book listing the data (not people's names and addresses for the avoidance of confusion), would there be a problem.

I admire, like you, the efforts of people in various areas to ensure deliveries but isn't the type of example you quote just what a postcode is intended to avoid aswell as the unnecessary expense! Postcode or no, occasional examples will persist.

This would also have the added advantage of ensuring that someone in for example Dublin 15 was not sold a house in Clonee which is given a 'nicer' address because of proximity (no offence intended to people in either D15 or Clonee).

Once again I would advise copying the example of pretty much every other country in assigning numbers to houses in rural areas (roads already have numbers). You can then distinguish one house from the other even without a satnav.

Combine this with numerical zip codes and it doesn't matter very much what else the sender writes on the envelope.

Again we seem largely in agreement. The practicalities of sorting out a numbering system in rural areas would be the issue and also making sure people displayed it prominently. The road names and or numbers are already there just in rural areas the necessity is to complete the public numbering of local roads.

Basically I feel most of the roots of a good system are already there. If we build on our relatively unique address system tidy up the loose bits here and there and tag the postcode as sort of checking system and location finder we have it sorted.

My real point is that the postcode would be an easily understood tag on to the existing system if people's latitude for spurious addresses as now exists was tightened up.

dermothickey wrote: »

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth here. Do we need postcodes? There is 4 and a half million people living here and 1.9 million houses. What's the point it's worked properly enough before introducing a postcode system will just make it difficult for people to post letters to Auntie aggie in crumlin.

spacetweek wrote: »

Liechtenstein is 35,000 people and has postcodes.

Yes, you absolutely need them. They're used for emergency services, food deilvery, parcels, census data, marketing, etc. Sending letters is only a small part of it.

Totally agree with spacetweek.

Last week I had to go to the following address.

"Silly Pretentious House Name"
Brownstown
Co Dublin.

I challenge you to find that. It's in the Swords area. Phone calls telling me to turn left at cowsheds and hedges proved infuriating.

I can't understand people arguing against them, the rest of the world has them for years so Ireland is clearly in the minority and in the wrong.