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National Postcodes to be introduced

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭ozmo


    MYOB wrote: »
    I don't think a set of car keys was ever a realistic suggestion for something you'd identifiably tag anyway...

    No matter what example is suggested in this thread.....


    ...substitute for anything else that might lead them to believe there's more of that where it came from and there is no way Id be putting an Eircode (my house location) on anything of value if I had it - phone number maybe.

    “Roll it back”



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    ozmo wrote: »
    exactly what recedite said...


    eg. what would you rather engrave on your BMW car key fob should you loose it (fob is hundreds to replace so worthwhile doing this)

    1) A phone number (a promise of reward for finder)
    2) A UK style (partial) post code (police could track it from their incident database)
    3) Your Eircode Routing code (3 digits - Im somewhere in D2 - useless to everyone)
    4) Your full Eircode - leading a burglar to your house to collect the car


    UK postcode and phone number wins - Eircode not suitable for marking your valuables.


    (ps. I dont own a bmw myself)

    What sort of idiot puts any identifying information on any sort of key. Its no different from writing your PIN number on your bank card!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    ozmo wrote: »
    No matter what example is suggested in this thread.....


    ...substitute for anything else that might lead them to believe there's more of that where it came from and there is no way Id be putting an Eircode (my house location) on anything of value if I had it - phone number maybe.

    So if I see a BMW outside your house then I think oh look a good place to break in when there's no one in. So I hope you have a garage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭ozmo


    my3cents wrote: »
    So I hope you have a garage...

    I'd need a decent car first..

    But seriously - the argument was made that a *Partial*(I did say partial - not complete) UK postcode, giving only an approximate location can help when combined with UK Police Incident reports.
    (A phone number I think is better though).

    But I would not consider it a good idea to put anything as identifying as your house location on anything - just because.

    “Roll it back”





  • MYOB wrote: »
    I don't think a set of car keys was ever a realistic suggestion for something you'd identifiably tag anyway...
    There used to be a service (provided free by an insurance company in the UK) where you were given a key fob that had a code and some "found me" instructions. The idea was you handed the keys to the police or someone similar or you could ring the contact freefone number given and you would be sent an envelope to return them to the insurance company.
    The insurance company then returned them to the owner.

    At no point was the finder made aware of where the owner lived.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    There used to be a service (provided free by an insurance company in the UK) where you were given a key fob that had a code and some "found me" instructions. The idea was you handed the keys to the police or someone similar or you could ring the contact freefone number given and you would be sent an envelope to return them to the insurance company.
    The insurance company then returned them to the owner.

    At no point was the finder made aware of where the owner lived.

    One scheme like that was run by the infamous CPP Card Protection Plans Insurance company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭larchill


    123.ie are doing this - I've a card on my car keys with a no to call if they're found after being lost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,617 ✭✭✭Enduro


    There was some very interesting discussion on this thread about the problems that will be caused by the Eircode from a data protection point of view. Someone created a good example of how a phishing website could be created for fake car insurance quotes that would enable someone to identify precise addresses where cars could be targeted for theft (due to the inherent precision of eircodes, and the lack of an abilty to give a useful partial code that would identify a street / small district rather than a precise address).

    So my interpretation is that an eircode has created a new potential vulnerability from a data security viewpoint. In itself it doesn't seem very harmful, as it is no more than anyone would get from revealing your address. However, as the occasional success that phishers and scammers manage to pull off proves, there are plenty of people who may not understand how much precise information is being revealed with an eircode and how dangerous this is, and that their eircode combined with other data can create a security vulnerability.

    That all sounds quite theoretical, and it could be argued that any scammer could simply ask for an address in the absence of an eircode. Are there any other good real world examples of how the precision of the eircode could create a security vulnerability? Is my interpretation correct, or am I reading too much into it / missing something?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Enduro wrote: »
    There was some very interesting discussion on this thread about the problems that will be caused by the Eircode from a data protection point of view. Someone created a good example of how a phishing website could be created for fake car insurance quotes that would enable someone to identify precise addresses where cars could be targeted for theft (due to the inherent precision of eircodes, and the lack of an abilty to give a useful partial code that would identify a street / small district rather than a precise address).

    So my interpretation is that an eircode has created a new potential vulnerability from a data security viewpoint. In itself it doesn't seem very harmful, as it is no more than anyone would get from revealing your address. However, as the occasional success that phishers and scammers manage to pull off proves, there are plenty of people who may not understand how much precise information is being revealed with an eircode and how dangerous this is, and that their eircode combined with other data can create a security vulnerability.

    That all sounds quite theoretical, and it could be argued that any scammer could simply ask for an address in the absence of an eircode. Are there any other good real world examples of how the precision of the eircode could create a security vulnerability? Is my interpretation correct, or am I reading too much into it / missing something?


    In terms of Phishing scams, its rarely an address would be phished as its pretty useless, most of these scams are after bank and credit card info, or log in details to peoples online banking accounts

    i dont think eircode adds any more vulnerability, if you're on a phishing site you've already fallen for it, so wheather you've an eircode or not - you're gonna get screwed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Enduro wrote: »
    .
    So my interpretation is that an eircode has created a new potential vulnerability from a data security viewpoint.
    .
    Is my interpretation correct, or am I reading too much into it / missing something?

    I suppose you could argue that is the case in certain situations. For the average urban person living at house number X in street Y, I can't see it making any major difference if they used a scamming website by mistake. Their address is already granular enough to pinpoint the residence without the Eircode. For a rural person, they would certainly give away their precise location. It's a concern perhaps, but how likely is a scamming website scenario for this? These sites aren't based in Ireland and are looking for credit card details, personal details to exact money from banks etc. They aren't going to have access to the Eircode db or turn up at your door. That's not to say someone couldn't set up a site trying to harvest postcode data, but surely some warning bells and alarms would be going off in your head.....

    Look at it this way - If you trust a website enough to provide your address and payment details for a service (physically delivered or not) then providing your postcode doesn't make any odds. Besides you want the thing delivered and a postcode would help that right? Esp. in a rural environment.

    However if the likes of Donedeal (or others) started to insist on a postcode, then that would be a concern - what are they doing with that data and who has access to it? At present they ask for a county, area and email/mobile. The seller then can disclose as much or as little info about their location as they want. It's these sites and interactions that are the security concern.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Enduro wrote: »
    There was some very interesting discussion on this thread about the problems that will be caused by the Eircode from a data protection point of view. Someone created a good example of how a phishing website could be created for fake car insurance quotes that would enable someone to identify precise addresses where cars could be targeted for theft (due to the inherent precision of eircodes, and the lack of an abilty to give a useful partial code that would identify a street / small district rather than a precise address).

    So my interpretation is that an eircode has created a new potential vulnerability from a data security viewpoint. In itself it doesn't seem very harmful, as it is no more than anyone would get from revealing your address. However, as the occasional success that phishers and scammers manage to pull off proves, there are plenty of people who may not understand how much precise information is being revealed with an eircode and how dangerous this is, and that their eircode combined with other data can create a security vulnerability.

    That all sounds quite theoretical, and it could be argued that any scammer could simply ask for an address in the absence of an eircode. Are there any other good real world examples of how the precision of the eircode could create a security vulnerability? Is my interpretation correct, or am I reading too much into it / missing something?

    One issue is that the scammer has to pay to use the database so in theory they could be traceable - provided there is no hacked copy floating around

    Then no different to the UK where a postcode will get you to the street if you are looking for a particular car its not going to be difficult to find. Its almost automatic to be asked for and provide postcodes on all sales calls in the UK.

    The same scams could be run with Loc8 or GeoCodes if they were going to be used so I don't see why Eircode should get a special mention.

    The website scam is another idea made up to try and prove a point. You could just as easily provide a map for customers to click on to indicate where they live before providing say a fake insurance quote. If you want to sign up with three online you will find just such a map thats tied to a database of most of the house address locations in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,617 ✭✭✭Enduro


    my3cents wrote: »
    One issue is that the scammer has to pay to use the database so in theory they could be traceable - provided there is no hacked copy floating around

    Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if hacked copies did start to appear though.
    my3cents wrote: »
    Then no different to the UK where a postcode will get you to the street if you are looking for a particular car its not going to be difficult to find. Its almost automatic to be asked for and provide postcodes on all sales calls in the UK.

    The same scams could be run with Loc8 or GeoCodes if they were going to be used so I don't see why Eircode should get a special mention.

    The reason it gets a special mention is that you have to give full precision with eircode. You can't drop the last character or two to deliberately give a less precision. My understanding is that this can be done with a well designed Geocode and with Loc8. It's this precision, and the inability to usefully degrade the precision, that creates the special case for Eircode IMHO.
    my3cents wrote: »
    The website scam is another idea made up to try and prove a point. You could just as easily provide a map for customers to click on to indicate where they live before providing say a fake insurance quote. If you want to sign up with three online you will find just such a map thats tied to a database of most of the house address locations in Ireland.

    True indeed. But at least it's obvious whats going on in that case, and much easier to tweak your input if you want to give a slightly offset response. With Eircode, again, it is precision or nothing. You couldn't usefully make up a nearby fake Eircode to point to, for instance, a nearby green space that would give a precise location close enough to your address to be useful, but not revealing your exact location.

    The website was indeed a made up idea, but it does illustrate a theoretical security vulnerability that is essentially newly created by Eircode's inherant design characteristics. And it does prove the point very well.

    My thinking on this is that Eircode are going to be a geographic equivalent to PPS numbers. After all, all PPS numbers do is uniquely and precisely identify an individual. It's a one trick pony. Eircodes similarly uniquely and precisely identify a delivery address / location. We can see all the fuss being kicked up about Irish water looking for subscriber's PPS numbers, where it will be stored, how long it will be stored for, and what it will be used for. Is the inherant and unavoidable precision of an Eircode going to result in it being running into similar privacy issues?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Enduro wrote: »

    My thinking on this is that Eircode are going to be a geographic equivalent to PPS numbers.

    No, its a shorter equivalent of your address, treat it as such and you'll have no problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    I don't see why the first three characters couldn't be used for purposes such as above. They would identify an area in the country - D12, T42, etc without identifying exactly where you live. You'd be one of several thousand houses - sufficient privacy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Curly Judge


    I don't see why the first three characters couldn't be used for purposes such as above. They would identify an area in the country - D12, T42, etc without identifying exactly where you live. You'd be one of several thousand houses - sufficient privacy.

    I don't understand this privacy sh!te at all?
    My name and address have been in the phone book since 1972 and I have never been aware of any disadvantage suffered as a result.
    The contrary in fact!


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    I don't understand this privacy sh!te at all?
    My name and address have been in the phone book since 1972 and I have never been aware of any disadvantage suffered as a result.
    The contrary in fact!

    A lot of people would probably agree with you, including myself.

    But the doomsayers who are predicting hordes of burglars descending on your house the minute your Eircode and address is published without your name, think otherwise. And they will have their say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,379 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    I really don't get this at all.

    How could people having your postcode, or half of it mean that you are a target for car thieves?

    Don't car thieves spot cars outside houses etc?

    I think there are just people out there looking for flaws and looking for opportunities to criticise the new system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    murpho999 wrote: »
    I really don't get this at all.

    How could people having your postcode, or half of it mean that you are a target for car thieves?

    Don't car thieves spot cars outside houses etc?

    I think there are just people out there looking for flaws and looking for opportunities to criticise the new system.


    exactly, car thieves target affluent areas where there are loads of fancy cars, theydon’t go building dummy websites to mine customers postcode data. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭a65b2cd


    Target date for Eircodes is mid-2015 according to a recent PQ:

    ... The project is currently in the implementation phase and is scheduled to roll out nationwide by the middle of 2015.

    Long overdue!




  • a65b2cd wrote: »
    Target date for Eircodes is mid-2015 according to a recent PQ:

    ... The project is currently in the implementation phase and is scheduled to roll out nationwide by the middle of 2015.

    Long overdue!
    Is April not considered mid 2015?, that's when they're (the postcode) supposed to be delivered to addressees.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Is April not considered mid 2015?, that's when they're (the postcode) supposed to be delivered to addressees.

    Possibly a start date. Irish water has been sending out letters for the last 6-8 weeks to every house. They'll probably be finished by Xmas!


  • Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭larchill


    Mid 2015? The original time was spring 2015: Mar - Jun 15. Is this beginning to slip already?:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Tow


    larchill wrote: »
    Mid 2015? The original time was spring 2015: Mar - Jun 15. Is this beginning to slip already?:(

    Yes: They were to publish a "Directory of Providers" in September 2014.

    The list to the directory is still not available at of today. See bottom right of page: http://www.eircode.ie/business/business-overview

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    I saw some sort of promoted tweet about how the rest of the country would have to wait for postcodes and Galway wouldn't... seemed sort of daft!

    Anyone else see this or know what it was about? I don't think I imagined it! :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭larchill


    Tow wrote: »
    Yes: They were to publish a "Directory of Providers" in September 2014.

    The list to the directory is still not available at of today. See bottom right of page: http://www.eircode.ie/business/business-overview

    Saw that alright no link has appeared here yet & its Oct 2nd :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Can someone explain to me the benefits of a postal code system?

    I mean, we're told it'll make things easier for delivery services because part of the code will tell them where the piece of mail should be routed to. But doesn't the address do that already? Or is the code designed to be read digitally, and this not the case with traditional addresses.

    Also, the website boasts that houses will be able to be located quickly and easily. By whom though? Will people be able to pop it into a sat nav? If so, will codes be in the public domain?

    Genuine questions here. Not against postcodes- just not exactly convinced of their utility.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Einhard wrote: »
    Can someone explain to me the benefits of a postal code system?

    I mean, we're told it'll make things easier for delivery services because part of the code will tell them where the piece of mail should be routed to. But doesn't the address do that already? Or is the code designed to be read digitally, and this not the case with traditional addresses.

    Also, the website boasts that houses will be able to be located quickly and easily. By whom though? Will people be able to pop it into a sat nav? If so, will codes be in the public domain?

    Genuine questions here. Not against postcodes- just not exactly convinced of their utility.

    1. Postcodes are to assist in the automatic reading of addresses. An Post say they have technology that does reads addresses and do not require postcodes and have resisted the implementation of them for years, probably for their own commercial reasons.

    2. Postcodes would assist delivery companies as it ties an address to a geographical location through a database or an algorithm. In most countries such databases are freely available. In Ireland it is expected that there will be substantial charges for access to this database. The use of an algorithm has been rejected - an algorithm would not require a database and its maintenance or charges for access.

    3. Ireland is unique (unusual) in that it is a developed country that doen not have unique addresses for approx 50% address, mainly rural. Most rural houses do not have a street name, nor a house number. This is not being tackled by the postcode.

    4, The design of the Eircode is such that it will have 7 characters, the last four being random. This means your post code will bear no relationship to your neighbours one, so you have to look up the databae to find any location of a particular code. The firs three characters will cover a vast area, such as Dublin 4, or Dublin 18.

    5. Because of its design (see 4), if you give your postcade to anyone, you give your exact address. This has security implications for some people.

    6. A numerical code would be preferable for several technical reasons but would involve a longer postcode. However, the postcode could be divided into two parts, a public (shorter) code and and short appendix that give exact location. The first part could go down to 20 to 300 addresses, with the second part bringing it to one location.

    7. Other interests in postcodes come from (junk) marketing companies and the likes of insurance companies. These interests are using postcodes to sectionalise society to assist them in their business. Many objectors cite this as a reason for not going to the exact address with a post code. There is no short version of the postcode - it is your exact address or the large area covered by a postal district, like Dublin 2.


    I hope that answers your questions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Interesting story from earlier this year from the BBC about postcodes in the UK and the various battles fought around them based on its design.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26367320


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Interesting story from earlier this year from the BBC about postcodes in the UK and the various battles fought around them based on its design.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26367320

    Sounds like Dublin 6W on steroids. A good reason for using purely numeric codes. Mind you they had a simillar spat about 0207 and 0208 phone numbers. [Inner London was 0207 and outer London was 0208]

    The good thing about modern technology is that if it falls flat on its face, it will be easy to go to a better system. Those who have had their email providers disappear (UTV and now Vodafone.ie) have to live with it, so if there is a redesign, the early adopters will have to live with the change which I would think would be much more benign that a loss of email provider.

    We have a badly designed system, lets hope the new Minister stops it and asks for a redesign before it's launched.


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