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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #1952
    1huge1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,171 ✭✭✭1huge1


    They will have to fund it through a PPP, due to the off balance sheet nature of PPPs, it will be the only way for the government to get these projects due within the deficit targets set by the EU.

    The demand for PPPs is returning in this country though so next years capital programme should tell a lot.


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    #1953
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Given the govt of the day ignored offers to privately fund a Dublin metro, and then built the Luas on the cheap, this may be whats needed.

    Tons of private capital pouring into Dublin these days, we built our motorway network with private help so why not this.

    The state clearly too busy doing economic gymnastics to invest properly in infrastructure.

    What offers to privately fund a Dublin metro are you talking about? Maybe ones which ignored EU tendering rules and which thus lack all credibility?

    What part of Luas was built "on the cheap"? Have you seen the construction costs of Luas?

    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    The currently proposed circuitous route around the city centre, via St. Stephen's Green, involves building directly under Dublin Castle, and there are obviously a number of security and architectural sensitivity issues there, then it does the big loop to St. Stephen's Green, and then it has another curve under Government Buidings, with another lot of security and architectural issues.

    A route via College Green would really only face those architecture/security obstacles at just one location, viz. the North side of Trinity College.

    Not again, please!


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    #1954
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Several posts moved to new thread.

    Please direct discussion of the College Green hypothetical routing to the following thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057289979

    This thread will remain open for discussion of other aspects of the Dart Underground project.

    - Moderator


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    #1955
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    This thing is at least a decade away from being built. There is lots of discussion yet about the best way to link up the rail lines in the East and West of the city.

    That alternative route thread will be off the first page in a week, and it will never see a post thereafter.


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    #1956
    noelfirl
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭noelfirl


    It should be apparent to anybody who has read this thread extensively before that the above post (now moved to other thread) effectively amounts to trollery. The very best thing that could happen now would be for everyone and anyone to not feed the troll.


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    #1957
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Please do not discuss moderation in-thread. Comments on moderation should be taken to private message.

    Posts pertaining to the suitability of the proposed DU route as opposed to others will continue to be moved.

    - Moderator.


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    #1958
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    noelfirl wrote: »
    It should be apparent to anybody who has read this thread extensively before that the above post (now moved to other thread) effectively amounts to trollery. The very best thing that could happen now would be for everyone and anyone to not feed the troll.

    Noel, I'm asking a question about why Dublin needs to build a longer, more expensive route than the obvious one via the city centre.

    I understand that in the original Dublin Transportation Office's join-the-dots crayon work it was necessary to build the interconnector via St. Stephen's when the LUAS was stuck there.

    But is that the case now?

    This is surely not trollery.


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    #1959
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Aard, for a long time there hasn't been any discussion on this thread of any aspect of Dart Underground other than its route between Christchurch and Pearse Station. Yet you are keen to remove such discussion.

    Most people here just want the damn thing built, even if the route isn't perfect. No one but you wants to go back to the drawing board and potentially delay it further. We know it won't happen anytime soon but we're so starved of decent public transport that we have to hold onto the glimmer of hope that a planning permission approved project gives us. It's like collective Stockholm syndrome towards our ministers for transport.


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    #1960
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Mod

    Moderators decisions are not for discussion, I've applied a ban (it seems 1 day is automatic amount) and a infraction for the post.


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    #1961
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    AECOM appointed to update the business case for the Dart Underground, report due towards end of year,


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    #1962
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    I would very much like to see the proposed Christchurch DART station being built with a view to it being an interchange station in the future.

    It's a very central location in the city. Probably as central as you could have.

    It seems to me, that if the Broombridge LUAS, which is underway, is a success, there will be calls to upgrade it. The first stage in this process is, I think, likely to involve extension of the line to Finglas.

    The second stage, obviously some years down the line, is to have a dedicated metro route between Finglas and the City Centre.

    It would make sense for the Christchurch DART station on the proposed DART Undergound project to be built with a view to this happening.


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    #1963
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    I would very much like to see the proposed Christchurch DART station being built with a view to it being an interchange station in the future.

    It's a very central location in the city. Probably as central as you could have.

    It seems to me, that if the Broombridge LUAS, which is underway, is a success, there will be calls to upgrade it. The first stage in this process is, I think, likely to involve extension of the line to Finglas.

    The second stage, obviously some years down the line, is to have a dedicated metro route between Finglas and the City Centre.

    It would make sense for the Christchurch DART station on the proposed DART Undergound project to be built with a view to this happening.

    There is no need for a Metro to Finglas. Finglas has a too low population density for a Metro and Finglas wont grow in size as any land after the M50 is zoned agricultural. Its near impossible to zone for residential use.

    A Metro to UCD would make far more sense.


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    #1964
    brandodub
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭brandodub


    hfallada wrote: »
    There is no need for a Metro to Finglas. Finglas has a too low population density for a Metro and Finglas wont grow in size as any land after the M50 is zoned agricultural. Its near impossible to zone for residential use.

    A Metro to UCD would make far more sense.

    What? Finglas and the North Fringe generally has a very high population of young families and a core commuter cohort that could lead in other parts of D11.
    The traffic on the roads is heavy again so a tram service AT LEAST is required imho


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    #1965
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Its likely that finglas will be serves by luas bxd


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    #1966
    fleet_admiral
    Registered Users Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭fleet_admiral


    hfallada wrote: »
    There is no need for a Metro to Finglas. Finglas has a too low population density for a Metro and Finglas wont grow in size as any land after the M50 is zoned agricultural. Its near impossible to zone for residential use.

    A Metro to UCD would make far more sense.

    More people live in Finglas than Carrikmines - Bridesglen, yet the latter has a Luas. The northside has been desperately neglected and forgotton about for far too long. Its time to reverse that


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    #1967
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Its likely that finglas will be serves by luas bxd

    It's very likely that it will be.

    I hope so.

    This would certainly bring development to the area. And more development.

    And consequently, demand for the LUAS link between the city and Finglas to be upgraded to a metro link between the city and Finglas. Not necessarily along the same route.


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    #1968
    omicron
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭omicron


    fleet_admiral wrote: »
    More people live in Finglas than Carrikmines - Bridesglen, yet the latter has a Luas. The northside has been desperately neglected and forgotton about for far too long. Its time to reverse that

    Carrickmines to Brides Glen has a very underused Luas, if thats going to be the density required for a luas then every urban area in the country would be eligible!


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    #1969
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    The area that the southern part of the Green line runs through is designated as an SDZ. It is completely incomparable to already built-up areas.


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    #1970
    redfacedbear
    Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭redfacedbear


    Is there not a chicken & egg type scenario at play though? Could extending the Luas/Metro into an area result in brownfield development that results in higher densities that further justify the extension in the first place?

    It would be interesting to see if population densities have gone up disproportionatley in areas within spitting distance of a DART station compared to other areas since 1980 (for example).


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    #1971
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Not a whole lot of brownfield sites in Finglas. What you describe, though, can be seen in North Docklands with the Red line extension there a few years back.

    Also wrt residential densities - in some (all?) of the Dublin local authorities, minimum densities for development within 1km of a railway station are 50 units/ha. Much higher than the 50s/60s/70s development densities of around 25 units/ha.


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    #1972
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Aard wrote: »
    Not a whole lot of brownfield sites in Finglas..

    There's a bit near the terminus - the various industrial estates both sides of the railway line (particularly to the north) are not the busiest, fullest or most modern.


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    #1973
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,851 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    MYOB wrote: »
    There's a bit near the terminus - the various industrial estates both sides of the railway line (particularly to the north) are not the busiest, fullest or most modern.

    Absolute eyesores too.


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    #1974
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    redfacedbear wrote: »
    It would be interesting to see if population densities have gone up disproportionatley in areas within spitting distance of a DART station compared to other areas since 1980 (for example).

    You have to look at economic activity as well as density.

    Since the Dart neighbourhoods largely consist of pre-existing low density housing, density hasn't increased as much as you'd imagine.

    However, land value has shot up in these areas since the 80s. This suggests high density is possible, but you still need the various councils to adopt the necessary zoning policies.

    Its also worth noting that central Dublin is much busier/denser in the east, near the Dart line.


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    #1975
    redfacedbear
    Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭redfacedbear


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Since the Dart neighbourhoods largely consist of pre-existing low density housing, density hasn't increased as much as you'd imagine.

    I know somebody who inherited a corner house in a 1940's estate (grand big gardens) close to the Luas green line. They were able to sell for crazy money to a developer who intended to knock the house and put 4 units in it's place (during the height of the property bubble, of course.) I had thought this might have been happening along the DART since 1984 and pushed the population up in the suburbs in addition what has happened in the Docklands/City Centre sections.


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    #1976
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    What's the story with this project? Have they gotten the planning permission for this project? If so, I'm assuming it's delayed due to funds?


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    #1977
    poteen o hooley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭poteen o hooley


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    What's the story with this project? Have they gotten the planning permission for this project? If so, I'm assuming it's delayed due to funds?

    construction starting in November


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    #1978
    NZ_2014
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭NZ_2014


    poteen o hooley wrote: »
    construction starting in November

    November 2018 is it?


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    #1979
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    What's the story with this project? Have they gotten the planning permission for this project? If so, I'm assuming it's delayed due to funds?



    Correct.


    Still awaiting government funding.


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    #1980
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    NZ_2014 wrote: »
    November 2018 is it?

    2018 would be a good target. Hopefully things will pick up sufficiently to allow this to happen.

    The poster Poteen has shown that he is able to produce useful questions for the board. Unfortunately, he expends most of his energy slagging off other posters, or coming up with negligible rubbish, like the post above,


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    #1981
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,245 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    poteen o hooley wrote: »
    construction starting in November
    Constructive posts only please.

    Moderator


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