Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Sent to prison for debt owed...

  • 09-11-2009 4:15pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Hi All,

    I've started writing a book that will tell the story of people who have been sent to prison for a debt in Ireland, in particular any people who have been affected by the current economic crisis. I'm amazed that we have the richest people in the country being bailed out with taxpayers money and I suspect that at the same time, we are sending some of the poorest people to prison for a debt.

    I'm looking to make contact with people who have been imprisoned for a debt in Ireland and also people who are possibly facing the prospect of a jail sentence due to a debt owed. I'm looking to meet with anyone who would like to tell their story, obviously all information given will be treated in the strictest of confidence, I'm planning on giving any people that I use as source material, pseudonoms and changing their location for the purposes of fully protecting their identity, etc...

    If anyone can point me in the direction of people facing the prospect of jail time for a debt or anyone who has served a sentence, please feel free to PM me...

    The book will be called, "Debt of Society" and will hopefully be published next year...

    Thanks for any help in advance...

    D.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Wow,

    Book sounds great, ill be reading that.

    Good Luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1109/1224258394211.html?via=mr

    I just saw today about the number of people being jailed for not paying fines is about to double.

    Is there any breakdown of the crimes however?
    i.e. is it an 8000 person increase in people being jailed for not paying their TV License, or more related to public order offences?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭SLUSK


    In Ireland you send people to jail for not paying the TV license.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0421/1224245070706.html

    In Ireland you bail out bankers and developers with tax payers money.
    One law for the rich and another for the rest. This is Oireland


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Bit early to be draging this up, but:


    I TOLD YOU SO! NAH NAH!!:p
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055507140


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    20th February 2009
    http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ideysnmhey/
    "The situation was described as "crazy" by Fine Gael last night, who pointed out it costs e2,000 a week to keep a person in prison. "

    &&

    November 9 2009
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1109/1224258394211.html?via=mr
    "Fine Gael TD Jim O’Keeffe described the figures as “incredible”, saying it was clear thousands of people were being sent to jail “because they are poor”.
    This was happening at a time when wrongdoing reaching hundreds of millions of euro in the banking sector had gone unpunished."


    I feel like I'm on the set of the Truman show or something.
    I sense a disturbance in the force. There is something wrong with the Matrix.
    Feel like I'm in a goldfish bowl, etc. etc.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    There was someone on the radio this afternoon citing (IIRC) Denmark, where fines are imposed based on a percentage of earnings and deducted at source via the tax system.

    It seems a bit pointless sending people to prison for non payment of fines. It would be much easier and cheaper to take money directly from them (tax system or social welfare). Failing that, a tagging system in place of prison (good old house arrest;)).


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,433 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    SLUSK wrote: »
    In Ireland you send people to jail for not paying the TV license.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0421/1224245070706.html

    In Ireland you bail out bankers and developers with tax payers money.
    One law for the rich and another for the rest. This is Oireland

    No one has ever been sent to jail for not paying the tv license.

    They have been sent to jail for not paying the fines imposed by the court.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭Turner


    Alot of people choose to go to prison instead of paying the fines.

    Its alot easier to go to mountjoy for 15 days (probably only 3 or 4 in the end) than paying a couple of hundered euro or €1000 fine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    its beyond me that this whole area hasnt been reformed. For all these non crimes , attachment of earnings or to benefit should be the logical answer no?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭SLUSK


    In Sweden if you don't pay you debts even after the debt collectors been chasing you, you get basically a black mark. When this happens no one will let you rent an apartment, no ISP will provide you with broadband and so on.

    This system is more reasonable. Let the market punish people who are bad at paying their bills and debts. It is a much better system.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    dvpower wrote: »
    There was someone on the radio this afternoon citing (IIRC) Denmark, where fines are imposed based on a percentage of earnings and deducted at source via the tax system.

    That will be Norway. Good system. I remember dot com sh*theads getting €600k speeding fines :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    Its only in the case of non-violent crimes. And honestly, a lot of people on welfare probably are not going to have 100 to spare. I honestly don't know how they manage to pay for things like the TV licence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,583 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    SLUSK wrote: »
    In Ireland you send people to jail for not paying the TV license.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0421/1224245070706.html

    In Ireland you bail out bankers and developers with tax payers money.
    One law for the rich and another for the rest. This is Oireland


    You live in Sweden with your mammy and daddy, you do not live in "Oireland". And as another poster pointed out nobody has been sent to prison for not paying a TV licence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭SLUSK


    TheZohan wrote: »
    You live in Sweden with your mammy and daddy, you do not live in "Oireland". And as another poster pointed out nobody has been sent to prison for not paying a TV licence.

    "Fifty-four people were locked up for failing to pay their TV licence fee."
    So I'm guessing the Irish times is lying then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    SLUSK wrote: »
    "Fifty-four people were locked up for failing to pay their TV licence fee."
    So I'm guessing the Irish times is lying then.

    Skewing the truth.

    You don't go to jail in Ireland for non-payment of debt. What happens is thus (speeded up timeline):

    1. You fail to pay
    2. Summons are issued
    3. You don't go to court
    4. Judge orders you to pay x per month off debt or imposes a fine
    5. You didn't go to court so you are unaware of 4 above.
    6. You go to jail for contempt of court when you don't comply with 4.

    That's how I understand it at least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    It's the only way some people will learn


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭Bosco boy


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Hi All,

    I've started writing a book that will tell the story of people who have been sent to prison for a debt in Ireland, in particular any people who have been affected by the current economic crisis. I'm amazed that we have the richest people in the country being bailed out with taxpayers money and I suspect that at the same time, we are sending some of the poorest people to prison for a debt.

    I'm looking to make contact with people who have been imprisoned for a debt in Ireland and also people who are possibly facing the prospect of a jail sentence due to a debt owed. I'm looking to meet with anyone who would like to tell their story, obviously all information given will be treated in the strictest of confidence, I'm planning on giving any people that I use as source material, pseudonoms and changing their location for the purposes of fully protecting their identity, etc...

    If anyone can point me in the direction of people facing the prospect of jail time for a debt or anyone who has served a sentence, please feel free to PM me...

    The book will be called, "Debt of Society" and will hopefully be published next year...

    Thanks for any help in advance...

    D.

    Best of luck with the book, but just suppose you strike up a deal with an individaul to publish your book, they do, its a great sucess but after a while the money you are owed is not fothcoming and you end up in a civil court, a judgement is passed in your favour and the 15,000 you are owed is due to you in 3 months, you meet pal outside and he tells you "You'll never see a cent of it" Whats your Plan? How do you get your money?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Bosco boy wrote: »
    Best of luck with the book, but just suppose you strike up a deal with an individaul to publish your book, they do, its a great sucess but after a while the money you are owed is not fothcoming and you end up in a civil court, a judgement is passed in your favour and the 15,000 you are owed is due to you in 3 months, you meet pal outside and he tells you "You'll never see a cent of it" Whats your Plan? How do you get your money?

    Brian Lenihan will buy the rights to the book at the Long Term Estimated Value of €20,000 and he will pay his mates €2 billion to administer the collection of the money.

    He suspects he might make a profit on the deal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    As James Maxwell put it on last week's "The Panel", it's a case of "socialism for the rich & capitalism for the poor"...

    "If you bugger up on a loan of €20, you're getting locked up in a cell in The Joy, but if you lose €3 or €4 billion when you're running a bank, they give you MORE & membership to a golf club."


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    As James Maxwell put it on last week's "The Panel", it's a case of "socialism for the rich & capitalism for the poor"...

    "If you bugger up on a loan of €20, you're getting locked up in a cell in The Joy, but if you lose €3 or €4 billion when you're running a bank, they give you MORE & membership to a golf club."

    The thing is if the bank goes totally bust the country goes even more to ****


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    The thing is if the bank goes totally bust the country goes even more to ****

    The thing is the banks approved the loans to people in the first place so its just wrong to say that the people that took them should go to prison for it.

    They acted irresponsibly but so did the people lending to them. Nobody who took loans during a period where people were encouraged to take on loans should go to prison IMO.

    Kick the crap out of their credit ratings fine but prison! Bit over the top IMHO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Chief--- wrote: »
    Alot of people choose to go to prison instead of paying the fines.

    Its alot easier to go to mountjoy for 15 days (probably only 3 or 4 in the end) than paying a couple of hundered euro or €1000 fine.

    Is it the case that if you DO serve jail time for unpaid debts, that the debts are then written off?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Bosco boy wrote: »
    Best of luck with the book, but just suppose you strike up a deal with an individaul to publish your book, they do, its a great sucess but after a while the money you are owed is not fothcoming and you end up in a civil court, a judgement is passed in your favour and the 15,000 you are owed is due to you in 3 months, you meet pal outside and he tells you "You'll never see a cent of it" Whats your Plan? How do you get your money?

    You don't. You can't get blood from a rock.


  • Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭GUIGuy


    Ah newspaper headlines! Please give me one instance of a person being jailed for non payment of a debt in Ireland. It has'nt happened because AFAIK there is no law that permits it.

    Obviously people are thrown in jail for failing to comply with a court order... but that's a completly different matter. When a case is taken against yo for non payment of a debt the court decides on an appropriate repayment schedule considering your crcumstances and orders you to pay it. Yor not jailed for non payment of the civil debt...you're jailed for not doing what the judge told yo.

    It's the "Enforcement of Court Orders Acts 1940". Recently there was a lot of coverage about this... The Caroline McCann test case. She 'ignored' an order to pay back 82 euro a week. The court didn't jail her immediately... The Credit Union took her to cort and she was ordered to pay this amount. It wasn't until she ran up arrears of 5,856Euro, that the district imposed a one month term on her.

    The test case and the subseqent ruling on the case was not that the jailing was wrong per se, but that procedures relating to the fact that the court imposed the order without her being present. Because she wasn't in court she was not represented and no effort was made by the judge to ascertain whether her failure was do to a willful failre or an inabilty. The judge just issued the order... maybe he was annoyed with her. Well the good judge has passed on so we'll never know.

    That is not to say that if she'd been present and represented AND the judge investigated her circmstances she might not have been jailed... but it was the judge's failing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    SLUSK wrote: »
    "Fifty-four people were locked up for failing to pay their TV licence fee."
    So I'm guessing the Irish times is lying then.

    See post #8


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    GUIGuy wrote: »
    Ah newspaper headlines! Please give me one instance of a person being jailed for non payment of a debt in Ireland. It has'nt happened because AFAIK there is no law that permits it.

    Obviously people are thrown in jail for failing to comply with a court order... but that's a completly different matter. When a case is taken against yo for non payment of a debt the court decides on an appropriate repayment schedule considering your crcumstances and orders you to pay it. Yor not jailed for non payment of the civil debt...you're jailed for not doing what the judge told yo.

    It's the "Enforcement of Court Orders Acts 1940". Recently there was a lot of coverage about this... The Caroline McCann test case. She 'ignored' an order to pay back 82 euro a week. The court didn't jail her immediately... The Credit Union took her to cort and she was ordered to pay this amount. It wasn't until she ran up arrears of 5,856Euro, that the district imposed a one month term on her.

    The test case and the subseqent ruling on the case was not that the jailing was wrong per se, but that procedures relating to the fact that the court imposed the order without her being present. Because she wasn't in court she was not represented and no effort was made by the judge to ascertain whether her failure was do to a willful failre or an inabilty. The judge just issued the order... maybe he was annoyed with her. Well the good judge has passed on so we'll never know.

    That is not to say that if she'd been present and represented AND the judge investigated her circmstances she might not have been jailed... but it was the judge's failing.

    She wasn't present, but she had been told to attend.
    She knew what was happening.


    OP, you should check out the Law Matters section of the IT from 3/4 weeks back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You don't. You can't get blood from a rock.

    What if they have money but refuse, point-blank, to pay?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭deadhead13


    The Law reform Commission published a consultation paper in September where it recommended that the law should make the distinction between those who cannot and those who will not pay.

    http://www.iprt.ie/contents/1402

    This follows on from a a High Court ruling that found that it was unconstitutional to send a person to prison for the inability to pay a debt.

    http://irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0627/1224249656685.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29




  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    What if they have money but refuse, point-blank, to pay?

    I take your point, if you have the means to pay and refuse to do so, then I don't see a reason why you should not go to prison. But even this point isn't as straightforward. Say you owe 20K to your credit union, and you have a house worth 350K with no mortgage. You might have your loan covered in terms of your capital worth, but you might not be able to sell your house in the current climate and therefore cannot use your capital worth to discharge your debt. So where are you then, are you a victim yourself of a wider set of economic circumstances or are you a person who has the means, but lacks the intent to discharge a debt???

    However it seems that since we went into recession and there was a huge rise in unemployment, the number of people ending up in prison for debt default has risen very rapidly, which I think would suggest that the people ending up in prison for non payment of debts are the very same people who are most affected by this recession, possibly people who have lost jobs, etc.

    In any event, I don't claim to have the answers right now, which is why I want to research the whole area and get in touch with people who have been down this particular road...


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement