Oireachtas proposal to ban sex-purchasers

Ozymandius2011 · 27-06-2013 9:39pm #1

An Oireachtas Committee for Justice and Equality has called for the introduction of the "Swedish model" i.e. criminalising purchase of sex. Do you agree with this?

Personally I believe adult consensual prostitution should be legal. I was aghast to hear Ivana Bacik on Newstalk this morning describing men who sell sex as "exploited" too. :rolleyes: Traditionally on the Left the argument for prohibition has been a feminist one, based on a blanket assumption that all women in the sex industry are being forced into the trade.

I would argue that it is prohibition which has led to organised crime controlling part of the sex industry, and that legalisation, regulation e.g. to reduce STDs, and taxation of adult prostitution is the way forward. I am also concerned at Ruhama's links with the Catholic religious orders (the Sisters of Charity and Good Shepherd Sisters are their trustees). There are also 2 nuns on their executive.

I would also point out that Sweden has the highest incidence of rape in the EU, according to the EU funded Daphne II report in 2009.

Cookie_Monster · 27-06-2013 10:06pm

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I would also point out that Sweden has the highest incidence of rape in the EU, according to the EU funded Daphne II report in 2009.

That is purely down to how they define rape though, it's got a far wider definition than most countires.

Pete_Cavan · 27-06-2013 10:18pm

http://business.time.com/2013/06/18/germany-has-become-the-cut-rate-prostitution-capital-of-the-world/

Germany Has Become the Cut-Rate Prostitution Capital of the World

The presence of thousands of brothels and hundreds of thousands of prostitutes has heightened competition and pushed prices down steeply in the German sex trade. One tourist from Florida, who visits the country three times annually to pay for cheap sex, compares the scene to a discount supermarket: “Germany is like Aldi for prostitutes,” he says.

Prostitution became legal in Germany in 2002, and the open sex trade has taken off in the years since. There are reportedly around 3,000 red-light establishments in the country, and 500 brothels in Berlin alone. It’s been estimated that more than 1 million men pay for sex in Germany every day.

One of the classic arguments for legalizing prostitution is that recognizing and regulating the world’s oldest profession would improve the conditions of sex workers. Instead, recent reports paint legalized prostitution in Germany largely as a failure.

Ozymandius2011 · 27-06-2013 10:25pm

At least in Germany women and men who can work legally are thereby more protected from pimping. They have access to labour law and are free to report violence to the police without fear of prosecution. At the end of the day it should be up to the adult prostitute thsmselves if they want to sell sex. Unlike some feminists and the Religious Right, I do not believe women are incapable of making decisions for themselves what to do with their own bodies without some evil male presence coercing them from the background.

The Committee are even recommending that those visiting prositutution websites be treated the same as those who view child pornography. This is ludicrous.

Ozymandius2011 · 27-06-2013 10:47pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That is purely down to how they define rape though, it's got a far wider definition than most countires.

I don't think so. The researchers of the Daphne II report in 2009 said rape is just more common in Sweden than other countries, and that reporting differences don't account for it. Sweden had 5000 cases per annum, while countries of similar size had a few hundred.

Thelocal.se wrote:

In Sweden, 46 incidents of rape are reported per 100,000 residents.

This figure is double as many as in the UK which reports 23 cases, and four times that of the other Nordic countries, Germany and France. The figure is up to 20 times the figure for certain countries in southern and eastern Europe.

The study, which is financed by the Brussels-based EU fund Daphne II, compared how the respective judicial systems managed rape cases across eleven EU countries. Sweden is shown in an unfavourable light, according to the study.

The high figures in Sweden can not it seems be explained purely by an increased tendency to report rapes and other more minor sexual offences.

Rape simply appears to be a more common occurrence in Sweden than in the other EU countries studied, the researchers argue.

Pete_Cavan · 27-06-2013 11:16pm

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

At least in Germany women and men who can work legally are thereby more protected from pimping. They have access to labour law and are free to report violence to the police without fear of prosecution. At the end of the day it should be up to the adult prostitute thsmselves if they want to sell sex. Unlike some feminists and the Religious Right, I do not believe women are incapable of making decisions for themselves what to do with their own bodies without some evil male presence coercing them from the background.

I am not sure if that is true because very few women who are not desperate for money (or being coerced) will choose that line of work. While some may choose to pursue a career as a prostitute, it is very likely demand for these services will far exceed the numbers willing to provide them. In this case criminals will continue to look to exploit vulnerable women from poorer countries who do not know what they are getting themselves into and may to forced to sign things which will make their exploitation perfectly legal. See here, if it were legalised here I am sure that for every woman who was doing it by choice, I am sure there would be many more who would be forced into it.

Ozymandius2011 · 27-06-2013 11:50pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I am not sure if that is true because very few women who are not desperate for money (or being coerced) will choose that line of work. While some may choose to pursue a career as a prostitute, it is very likely demand for these services will far exceed the numbers willing to provide them. In this case criminals will continue to look to exploit vulnerable women from poorer countries who do not know what they are getting themselves into and may to forced to sign things which will make their exploitation perfectly legal. See here, if it were legalised here I am sure that for every woman who was doing it by choice, I am sure there would be many more who would be forced into it.

On the contrary international experience with alcohol and drugs has shown that it is Prohibition that places a trade in the hands of organised crime. But since you appear to acknowledge some engage in sex work by choice, that would seem to me to constitute a case for saying the law should not treat all prostitution the same, and that voluntary i.e. freelance adult prostitution should be legal.

Also remember there are also male sex workers, and the exploitation argument doesn't sound so convincing when you are talking about adult men.

Senator David Norris has come out against criminalising purchasers, calling it "horribly sanctimonious".

Scofflaw · 28-06-2013 3:31am

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I don't think so. The researchers of the Daphne II report in 2009 said rape is just more common in Sweden than other countries, and that reporting differences don't account for it. Sweden had 5000 cases per annum, while countries of similar size had a few hundred.

It's not a reporting-rate effect, but a definition effect - that is, what is defined as "sexual assault" elsewhere is defined as rape in Sweden. Further, Swedish law requires the recording of every single episode of rape, so if a woman claims to have been raped weekly by her husband for a year, that is recorded as 52 rapes, whereas in other jurisdictions it will be recorded as a single rape case.

There's a Swedish official response here: http://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/news-from-bra/archive/news/2011-01-18-how-common-is-rape-in-sweden-compared-to-other-european-countries.html

There's quite a good potted explanation here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19592372

The BBC one compares other definitional anomalies, such as Australia and Canada having kidnap rates 30 and 20 times those of Colombia - because their statistics for 'kidnapping' include parental disputes over custody.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 28-06-2013 3:42am

On the OP, I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I'd agree that adding money to what is otherwise just sex between consenting adults shouldn't make any difference. On the other, I can accept the argument that not all prostitution - or even the majority, necessarily.

There's an argument for criminalisation in that it prevents coerced prostitution from being able to hide itself by pretending to be voluntary, in that criminalisation renders the distinction redundant. There's an argument against it there too, in that by rendering the distinction redundant, it makes criminals of the otherwise honest, and/or pushes them into the hands of criminals.

And while I dislike the criminalisation of those who may already be coerced into prostitution, which reduces their chances of leaving prostitution if they wish to do so, I can't see the point of criminalising those who use the services of prostitutes at all - that strikes me as simply regarding prostitution as something to be stamped out because it's, you know, just bad and naughty.

On balance, I would prefer to see legalisation of prostitution and a stronger focus on criminalising and fighting coercion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Seanchai · 28-06-2013 3:56am

It's incredible that the purchasers of sex have not been liable to be charged until this.

It would be nice to see this extended into begging: after all, begging would not exist unless people gave money to make it worth the beggars while.

Pete_Cavan · 28-06-2013 9:06am

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

On the contrary international experience with alcohol and drugs has shown that it is Prohibition that places a trade in the hands of organised crime. But since you appear to acknowledge some engage in sex work by choice, that would seem to me to constitute a case for saying the law should not treat all prostitution the same, and that voluntary i.e. freelance adult prostitution should be legal.

Also remember there are also male sex workers, and the exploitation argument doesn't sound so convincing when you are talking about adult men.

Like the second link I posted shows, people can voluntarily pursue a career as a prostitute and then find themselves exploited. Those who choose this career path are probably most likely to choose the higher end "escort" type market while it is the vulnerable who are most likely to find themselves in the lower end brothel market where they are more likely to be exploited. These be desperate or foreign and see themselves as having little choice only to continue.

And the above applies to both male and female and yes adult males can be exploited too - their employers may trick them into believing they are their friends and they are doing them a favour and providing them with an income which they do not see themselves being able to earn elsewhere, not realising how poor the conditions really are. It will be next to impossible for the state to regulate the hours worked, number of customers seen, etc. for every sex worker every night and I dont think brothel owners will be the most considerate of employers.

Also, I do not accept the argument that legalising prostitution will reduce incidents of rape. In most cases rape or sexual assault, it has nothing to do with the availability of sex (or lack of) and often has very little to do with the physical act itself. People who commit such crimes also enjoy the feeling of superiority, dominance and control they exert over their victim and these wants are not met in consensual sex. Rapists also attribute no worth at all to their victims (seeing as they treat them with such disdain) so are unlikely to see any value in paying for sex. I never heard of a case where the reason for committing rape was not getting enough sex.

munchkin_utd · 28-06-2013 9:26am

One of the classic arguments for legalizing prostitution is that recognizing and regulating the world’s oldest profession would improve the conditions of sex workers. Instead, recent reports paint legalized prostitution in Germany largely as a failure.

"recent reports" being an ARD (the BBC/ RTE of germany) documentary which investigated the situation and found some quite unhappy ladies.
Thing is, the programme set out to find bad things and it did.

It sort of reminds me of reports on other industries like say Chinese restaurants where the staff are treated like crap.
Or say in Ireland where you had documentaries on nurseries and old folks homes and again, the documentary found cases that made your head turn.

Just because a TV maker can put together a show that has clips of bad practice or unhappy workers doesnt automatically mean that the entire industry should be shut down.

Scofflaw · 28-06-2013 10:12am

It will be next to impossible for the state to regulate the hours worked, number of customers seen, etc. for every sex worker every night and I dont think brothel owners will be the most considerate of employers.

I don't see why this should be so. The state regulates the hours worked and so on for virtually every other business, and in a legal situation I can't see why brothel owners should be any more inconsiderate than the next business owner.

I can't help but think that those points are coloured by the idea of prostitution as somehow fundamentally different from other businesses. If it's legal, it's just another business, with its own particular quirks and challenges, but still just a business.

cordially,
Scofflaw

laoch na mona · 28-06-2013 12:24pm

I don't know how anyone can support prostitution, It's buying another person basically, And considering that prostitution and human trafficking go hand in hand it is clear that it should be illegal. because many women do not chose to be prostitutes punishing them makes much less sense then then punishing the men who use prostitutes

Ozymandius2011 · 28-06-2013 12:33pm

There is no statistical evidence that the majority of Irish based prostitutes are forced. But if they are, then legalisation would improve the situation as they would no longer be afraid to go to the Gardai. Bring it out into the open so it can be regulated and abuses stamped out.

I know Ruhama claims they are not acting of their own free will. But given Ruhama's trustees are the Sisters of Charity that used to run the Magdalene Launderies, I would take that with a pinch of salt.

hatrickpatrick · 28-06-2013 2:23pm

My body, my rules - that should count for everyone and for every situation, end of.

Scofflaw · 28-06-2013 2:49pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

I don't know how anyone can support prostitution, It's buying another person basically,

Well, renting, perhaps. And people rent each other for all kinds of things, so I'm not sure what's so hugely different simply because sex is involved.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick · 28-06-2013 3:09pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

I don't know how anyone can support prostitution, It's buying another person basically

It's buying a service from another person. How you view this depends on how you view sex itself, and not everyone views it as sacred. Personally I actually do, but I have no right to tell anyone else to - to some people, men and women, it's just something to do and doesn't have all these deep philosophical connotations attached to it, so to suggest that buying sex from someone = buying that person implies that everyone should view sex as sacred. This isn't really fair if we're to live in a society with freedom of thought and freedom of opinion.

And considering that prostitution and human trafficking go hand in hand it is clear that it should be illegal.

Some would argue that getting drunk and starting fights often go hand in hand, does that mean everyone should be prohibited from drinking because sometimes it's a problem?

because many women do not chose to be prostitutes punishing them makes much less sense then then punishing the men who use prostitutes

How about punishing neither, but locking up anyone found to coerce anyone else into sex? I'd be more than happy to see pimps who force women into prostitution being held criminally liable for rape for every separate incident involving any woman they have coerced. That'd still leave people who choose to do it free to do it.

Ozymandius2011 · 28-06-2013 4:38pm

I'd like to know why Ruhama appears to be in a position to dictate government policy on this issue. The politicians have been pandering to them for years. In 2007 the taxpayer gave them €700,000 including the HSE and Dept of Justice. The media are also unusually tame towards them, despite the agenda implied by their links to the Catholic religious orders (see post 1 for source). The media have tended to be very critical of the Church, and the tustees of Ruhama are some of the orders involved with the Magdalene Launderies e.g. Sisters of Charity. So where do Ruhama get off portraying themselves as the guardians of women's rights?

John Flavin · 29-03-2014 7:08pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I am not sure if that is true because very few women who are not desperate for money (or being coerced) will choose that line of work. While some may choose to pursue a career as a prostitute, it is very likely demand for these services will far exceed the numbers willing to provide them. In this case criminals will continue to look to exploit vulnerable women from poorer countries who do not know what they are getting themselves into and may to forced to sign things which will make their exploitation perfectly legal. See here, if it were legalised here I am sure that for every woman who was doing it by choice, I am sure there would be many more who would be forced into it.

So, have you spoken to current sex workers and asked them if they have freely chosen to work as escorts? Because I have, and the majority are doing it completely voluntarily.

Just because most of the media and most politicians tell you that the majority are coerced into it does not mean you should blindly accept what they say. When it comes to prostitution there is always a hidden agenda, you can't accept anything without questioning who is saying it and what their motives are.

I'm only interested in getting to the truth and the only way to do that is to speak to current sex workers and ask them if they are forced into it. From what I've been told by sex workers the percentage of them doing it against their will is a very low single digit figure which is still far too high and needs to be zero. However, Turn Off The Red Light and certain politicians constantly state that anything from 85% to 99% of sex workers are coerced. Some politicians who actually speak the truth on this issue are David Norris, Clare Daly, Mick Wallace and Luke Ming Flanagan.

mikom · 29-03-2014 7:13pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

I don't know how anyone can support prostitution, It's buying another person basically,

Renting is dead money.

gizmo555 · 30-03-2014 3:36pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I am not sure if that is true because very few women who are not desperate for money (or being coerced) will choose that line of work.

There's a great many lines of work which only someone who needed the money would do. Doesn't mean they should be illegal.

COYW · 31-03-2014 1:04pm

John Flavin wrote: »

Because I have, and the majority are doing it completely voluntarily.

And what are their opinions on legalisation; are they for or against it? Naturally, they will be taxed on their earnings but it will also lead to greater visibility. Do they want that visibility and the negative attention that will come with it? I am the naive sort I know but I honestly can't ever recall seeing visible prostitution in Ireland.

Let's say it is legalised and Wicklow street in Dublin city centre is marked as a 'red light zone'. That area will be picketed night and day by opposing groups. Potential clients will avoid that area like the plague, as there will always be a stigma associated with prostitution. Legalisation won't make it socially acceptable.

ardmacha · 31-03-2014 1:29pm

COYW wrote: »

Let's say it is legalised and Wicklow street in Dublin city centre is marked as a 'red light zone'. That area will be picketed night and day by opposing groups. Potential clients will avoid that area like the plague, as there will always be a stigma associated with prostitution. Legalisation won't make it socially acceptable.

I suggest making Kildare Street the designated zone, people already prostitute themselves there and protests are already usual in those parts.

hfallada · 31-03-2014 1:39pm

COYW wrote: »

And what are their opinions on legalisation; are they for or against it? Naturally, they will be taxed on their earnings but it will also lead to greater visibility. Do they want that visibility and the negative attention that will come with it? I am the naive sort I know but I honestly can't ever recall seeing visible prostitution in Ireland.

Let's say it is legalised and Wicklow street in Dublin city centre is marked as a 'red light zone'. That area will be picketed night and day by opposing groups. Potential clients will avoid that area like the plague, as there will always be a stigma associated with prostitution. Legalisation won't make it socially acceptable.

My mother used to walk down Baggot Street and Pembroke Road in 1980s. The whole street was lined with women (generally heroin addicts) selling their "services" to men. This wasnt in private house but openly on the street. Leeson Street was full of brothels too. But this no longer occurs as the
area has changed.

Dublin no longer really has a red light district anymore. But if you go to Germany you will quickly realise that you have entered a red light district and its accepted. Germany is far more conservative than Ireland and prostitution is accepted. There are strips club in areas in Dublin where there is only offices and there is no issues from locals. But when Peter Stringfellows opened in a residential area there was opposition.

Any business will be accepted as long as its in the right area

sprained_wang · 31-03-2014 5:30pm

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I'd like to know why Ruhama appears to be in a position to dictate government policy on this issue. The politicians have been pandering to them for years. In 2007 the taxpayer gave them €700,000 including the HSE and Dept of Justice. The media are also unusually tame towards them, despite the agenda implied by their links to the Catholic religious orders (see post 1 for source). The media have tended to be very critical of the Church, and the tustees of Ruhama are some of the orders involved with the Magdalene Launderies e.g. Sisters of Charity. So where do Ruhama get off portraying themselves as the guardians of women's rights?

ruhama are a quango which receive state support , so does the national womens council ( who are on the same page as ruhama in this instance btw ) , how is ruhama particulary unique , their are hundreds of QUANGO,s

Valmont · 31-03-2014 8:18pm

Unfortunately I think it's unlikely that many Irish politicians will propose to legalise prostitution because there is a strong public attitude that supporting the legalisation or decriminalisation of an act is ipso facto a personal stamp of approval on the morality of that act. It would be inconceivable to a lot of voters that a politician could support the legalisation of prostitution and not actually want everybody or himself to engage in it compulsively.

goose2005 · 01-04-2014 6:12pm

Valmont wrote: »

Unfortunately I think it's unlikely that many Irish politicians will propose to legalise prostitution because there is a strong public attitude that supporting the legalisation or decriminalisation of an act is ipso facto a personal stamp of approval on the morality of that act. It would be inconceivable to a lot of voters that a politician could support the legalisation of prostitution and not actually want everybody or himself to engage in it compulsively.

Unfortunately, in politics, especially Irish politics, by far the easiest and safest option is to do nothing and say nothing and hope no-one asks you anything.

Ozymandius2011 · 28-03-2015 1:40am

A new poll reported by BBC of UK Third Level students seems to undermine Ruhama's claims prostitutes are forced into the industry.

It finds 22% of UK students would consider sex work. 5% of men and 3.5% of women surveyed are already involved.

The poll also finds:

Advantages of sex work: Pleasure (46%), good money (83%), and flexible hours (77%).

conorh91 · 28-03-2015 5:43pm

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

A new poll reported by BBC of UK Third Level students seems to undermine Ruhama's claims prostitutes are forced into the industry.

It finds 22% of UK students would consider sex work.

Rocking up to a university campus and asking (mostly) middle-class students whether they would consider sex work doesn't seem like a reliable method of understanding the motivations of sex workers.

'Hey Felix, would you ever work in the sex industry?'
'yeah of course, I have a massive penis and I'd get to have sex all day L.O.L.'

Not really the same situation as a Bolivian illegal immigrant having to perform sex acts on fat middle aged men in a basement somewhere.

Oireachtas proposal to ban sex-purchasers

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