More Travellers Tales

Byron85 · 10-07-2010 11:26pm

aDeener wrote: »

the same reaction you would get if you said nothing - a hiding.

honestly comparing it to nigger for black people is a bit much. next some of ye will be saying tinker is offensive :rolleyes:

Stop posting. Please.

Nijmegen · 11-07-2010 12:25am

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Yes it is a rather derogatory term to use considering the context in which it's being used in this thread. Most of the posters in here are doing quite a good job of stereotyping an entire class of people based on anecdotal experiences and stories.

Keep tarring all you want though. :rolleyes:

I agree with you on the use of language.

On the issue of stereotyping an entire class of people based on anecdotal experiences and stories, I would say this: There seems to be a vast majority of negative experiences in all anecdotal experiences and stories told first hand from experiences of people with travellers.

Eventually a large weight of anecdotal evidence must be considered as extensive smoke from which to go searching for a fire.

I would like the state to produce specific figures for the travellers relating to issues such as criminality, tax compliance, costs to local government and the gardai, etc etc.

Scofflaw · 11-07-2010 2:25am

aDeener wrote: »

the same reaction you would get if you said nothing - a hiding.

honestly comparing it to nigger for black people is a bit much. next some of ye will be saying tinker is offensive :rolleyes:

Offensive is in the ear of the listener, not the mouth of the speaker - although in this case I think it's in both equally.

You've also gone to a bit of trouble there to use a word the filter blocks out - take a couple of days off and think about why the filter is there in the first place.

moderately,
Scofflaw

murphaph · 11-07-2010 11:58am

bluewolf wrote: »

Saw one on an ad for their show on tv saying "it's the equivalent of calling a black person a n***er"

So... a very bad reaction

I thought travellers were all sweetness and light, and would turn the other cheek etc. etc. (at least according to the Amnesty International brigade on here who defend them to the last).

I have also had more than enough personal interaction with travellers. Enough to last a lifetime. In MY experience a large MAJORITY of travellers have no qualms about stealing other people's property. I believe they also generally appear happier to live in filthy conditions than to use the (council provided, at taxpayers' expense) refuse facilities, but my personal experience doesn't go much beyond having stuff stolen by them.

Travellers are a clever bunch. They know the system and how to play it. They are NOT the downtrodden minority they make out: they are virtually left alone by the Guards to run amok as they like, and I am personally sick of it. If they don't want to be part of mainstream society, then cut off the benefits paid to them by mainstream, tax compliant, PAYE worker Joe Bloggs.

Usual disclaimer: travellers aren't alone in being involved in criminality, but they appear in negative press far too often for such a small minority, and that's allowing for the fact that a lot of stuff NEVER ends up in a prosecution against them.

11-07-2010 1:58pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

I would like the state to produce specific figures for the travellers relating to issues such as criminality, tax compliance, costs to local government and the gardai, etc etc.

Ditto.

AlekSmart · 11-07-2010 9:22pm

I would like the state to produce specific figures for the travellers relating to issues such as criminality, tax compliance, costs to local government and the gardai, etc etc.

Not very likely to occur.

Given our present Government`s new-found fixation with secrecy I would suggest tyhat such information would be described as "Commercially Sensitive Information" and therefore Top-Secret !

DrumSteve · 12-07-2010 9:45am

FTA69 wrote: »

Reminds me of a speech I saw on TV being made by a Ku Klux Klan member explaining the difference between "n*ggers and black people". The fact is that knacker is an offensive word that is used to slur all Travellers, it isn't some sort of term you can use á la carte like.

While Traveller culture is inherently shaped by nomadism, that isn't the sole determining factor. You can have third-generation Travellers who grew up in a house, likewise if I went around the place in a trailor that wouldn't necessarily make me an Irish Traveller.

Im pretty sure that was Chris Rock.

BlaasForRafa · 12-07-2010 2:59pm

DrumSteve wrote: »

Im pretty sure that was Chris Rock.

Correct, it was Chris Rock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6-Wc0PDc4

FTA69 · 13-07-2010 1:51pm

Im pretty sure that was Chris Rock.

He isn't the only person to draw a difference between the two terms. It was actually an Oprah Winfrey special in some hillbilly town.

Murphahph,

and that's allowing for the fact that a lot of stuff NEVER ends up in a prosecution against them.

Yeah, there isn't a large amount of Travellers in jail or anything.

DrumSteve · 13-07-2010 3:55pm

FTA69 wrote: »

He isn't the only person to draw a difference between the two terms. It was actually an Oprah Winfrey special in some hillbilly town.

Fair nuff.

murphaph · 13-07-2010 3:59pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah, there isn't a large amount of Travellers in jail or anything.

Why might that be?

Fulton Crown · 13-07-2010 6:51pm

jmayo wrote: »

You cannot base Traveller criminal activity on just prison figures alone as can be seen from the aftermath of the Mullingar riots.

Maybe not JUST on prison figures alone ..but it's a good pointer !

It is also noticable that Gardaí often don't intervene unless pushed to do so.

I have seen Travellers move into area of Dublin industrial estate creating havoc.
Gardaí were called, they turn up alright but just drive past and then leave

.

Gardai a re naturally reluctant to "engage" a large group of drink and drug fuelled slash hook wielding violent miscreants !

(Gardai not fools !)

The whole Nally/Ward incident highlighted how travellers can escape the rigours of the law that normal "settled community" would not.
Ward had numerous outstanding warrants and yet they were never served on him ?

See above in the singular.

Ever notice the huge fires bleching black smoke that are evident from some traveller halting sites ?
If that type of smoke was to eminate from a farmer's land or someones premises they would face prosecution from the local authorities, yet nothing ever appears to happen to the travellers

.

Local authorities relectant to engage large groups of...........

(Local authority officials not fools...have houses and families)

They appear to given huge leeway that people in the "settled community" are not afforded.
If they want to be treated with respect then they need to start showing some respect to others

.

Not really giving leeway - just afraid of their sh1t of psychopatic thugs !

And as is always said there are travellers that are honest hardworking decent
people, but sadly they too often appear in the minority.

Yes.

Fulton Crown · 13-07-2010 7:06pm

murphaph wrote: »

I thought travellers were all sweetness and light, and would turn the other cheek etc. etc. (at least according to the Amnesty International brigade on here who defend them to the last).

I have also had more than enough personal interaction with travellers. Enough to last a lifetime. In MY experience a large MAJORITY of travellers have no qualms about stealing other people's property. I believe they also generally appear happier to live in filthy conditions than to use the (council provided, at taxpayers' expense) refuse facilities, but my personal experience doesn't go much beyond having stuff stolen by them.

Travellers are a clever bunch. They know the system and how to play it. They are NOT the downtrodden minority they make out: they are virtually left alone by the Guards to run amok as they like, and I am personally sick of it. If they don't want to be part of mainstream society, then cut off the benefits paid to them by mainstream, tax compliant, PAYE worker Joe Bloggs.

Usual disclaimer: travellers aren't alone in being involved in criminality, but they appear in negative press far too often for such a small minority, and that's allowing for the fact that a lot of stuff NEVER ends up in a prosecution against them.

Very well said Sir !

FTA69 · 14-07-2010 11:15am

Why might that be?

Maybe because of the same reason you'll find large amounts of people from urban council estates in prison. It doesn't mean that everyone from a council estate is a "subhuman" "animal" "knacker" though does it?

Similarly you'll also find a disproportionately large amount of blacks in jail in countries like the USA and even England, it doesn't mean that black people are inherently criminal either. The fact is that marginalisation and poverty are the main determining factors of crime, not ethnicity.

FishFood · 14-07-2010 11:47am

Are they not marginalised by their own choice though? As in it's a deliberate choice on their part to live apart from the rest of society. I don't think it's quite the same as comparing it to the rates of crime amongst Black people in the USA as they actually are living in the society albeit at a much lower social demographic and as you rightly say marginalisation and poverty is a big factor there.Plus you mention before that having a bad experience with one member ethnic group, such as Bangladeshi/Polish etc, doesn't mean you tar the whole group. Quite correct and while I have had individual bad experiences with several members of certain groups the majority of experiences have been fine.However the same just cannot be said for the travelling community, it's a simple fact that the majority of experiences with them are negative for the vast majority of people in this country. So basically my point is, how many negative experiences does it take before people will start to tar the whole group with the same brush? 5 out of 10? 6? And so on. You don't hear too many stories of other ethnic groups within this country abusing the system and the population to the level of the travelling community. We have all heard individual or group stories on a small scale regarding other groups for sure, but for such a low proportion of the population the travelling community are certainly very highly represented when it comes to peoples bad experiences. I am just trying to point out that while it is certainly wrong to tar a group based on individual negative experiences, it's when these experiences start adding up that it becomes extremely difficult not to.

murphaph · 14-07-2010 11:51am

FTA69 wrote: »

Maybe because of the same reason you'll find large amounts of people from urban council estates in prison. It doesn't mean that everyone from a council estate is a "subhuman" "animal" "knacker" though does it?

Similarly you'll also find a disproportionately large amount of blacks in jail in countries like the USA and even England, it doesn't mean that black people are inherently criminal either. The fact is that marginalisation and poverty are the main determining factors of crime, not ethnicity.

Yeah, but whose marginalising whom here? Are the travelling community really marginalised by the settled community who pay for their halting sites, waste disposal etc. etc?

FTA69 · 14-07-2010 12:15pm

Are they not marginalised by their own choice though?

They are to an extent, the distance between Travellers and settled people is one perpetuated by them just as much. Part of that is born out by the discrimination that they face within society, part of it is the self-enforced insularity that is often found within minority groupings. Similarly I've never once argued that there aren't Travellers who are complete scum, and neither have I argued that there aren't massive problems and disfunctions that can be found in Traveller society.

What I have said is that these problems can be found in other minority communities as well, that people should be taken as individuals on their own merits and that these problems aren't hardwired into a given community's DNA.

it's a simple fact that the majority of experiences with them are negative for the vast majority of people in this country

I'd opine that the majority of people in this country have never even had a conversation with a Traveller and know f*ck all about them really.

lazygal · 14-07-2010 12:23pm

I was brought on a visit to Pavee Point in school and we talked to traveller girls our age (16 and 17), all of whom were married. They had a defeated look to them despite their youth and one girl admitted her husband had already given her a "few slaps". I remembered them for years after, and the reasons why they said they were married so young "To escape". I always wondered what they were escaping from and to and why marriage was the only route for them.

Cat Melodeon · 14-07-2010 1:21pm

The vast majority of my experiences with Travellers have been pretty much the same as my experiences with any other distinctive group within society - although most aggro I've ever encountered has been from settled folk. I worked in bars when I was younger and only ever got hassle from middle-aged (settled) men. I was mugged in Dublin by a 17-year-old scobe from Phibsborough - subsequently arrested and not a Traveller. People regularly fly-tip on our land - the ones we have caught (either red-handed or by sifting through their filth) have mostly come from well-to-do estates in the suburbs of a nearby town. I have been working in education for the past 8 years and have seen more trouble caused by settled kids than by Traveller kids - guess it would work out about the same proportionately if I did the stats.

The negatives I have encountered with Travellers are that once a family camped on our land and were burning down tyres for the metal inside. We asked them to move on, they did after some friendly banter, and cleaned up their mess after them too. A Traveller girl nicked a pack of fags on me once. The only other offences I have personally seen would be punishable by the fashion police rather than the Gardai so I'm not counting them and have probably been guilty of similar in my day. I've had loads ofnormal and positive experiences with Travellers as I have some as neighbours and have worked with others - they no longer Travellers to me, just people I know.

The legal justice system in Ireland is skewed unfavourably against young men from working class and Traveller backgrounds (there was a piece of research done on this by Ciaran McCullagh in UCC). The effects of something like tax evasion are much greater on society than the effects of someone nicking an item from a supermarket, yet tax evasion hasn't been criminalised and the likes of the golden circle get away with practically raping the country while Travellers are reviled and heaped with opprobrium for petty crimes and tax evasion that is peanuts in comparison. Traveller crimes and misdemeanors are conflated in the media, making them higher profile and making them appear more common than crimes by the settled community when they are not always so (a study in UL on immigrant crime highlights this in it's research).

The governemt in behoven to Travellers and is morally bound to provide halting sites, educations centres etc above and beyond that which is provided to settled folk, as for decades it actively pursued a policy of breaking up Traveller family units, criminalising their lifestyle, denying them equal access to services etc. The results of these policies can be seen today in the way that Traveller culture has become fractured, trades and skills traditionally passed from generation to generation have been lost, Traveller social hierarchies have lost their significance and very little has been done to carve out an alternative space for Travellers within Irish society. Look at how the culture of the Gaeltacht is preserved and protected, at how farmers' livelihoods are defended at every turn despite farming no longer being a viable career path for most, at how fishing communities are retrained and invested in in order to give them a place in society without causing them to lose their unique characteristics. Just because we do not place value on Traveller culture does not mean it is without value. They are a separate cultural group, whether you accept them as a distinct ethnic group or not, and have rights as such. Ireland is weird in that it has all the laws and policies in place to provide equity to Travellers, but the general populace has no desire to see those laws or policies implemented. Instead, people seem happy to say that '95% of Travellers have criminal records' with no proof whatsoever, to blacken all on their experiences of some, and to completely ignore the fact that privileged members of society commit and get away with much worse without a murmur from the masses.

You may personally have had some bad experiences but it is dishonest to say that Travellers are all criminals or to make out that they are responsible for all the ills of society. It's quite sickening that this attitude is so prevalent and acceptable in Ireland.

mikemac · 14-07-2010 1:36pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

trades and skills traditionally passed from generation to generation have been lost,

I've no doubt at one stage travellers were skilled metal workers and tinsmiths. They were tinkers after all
You can't blame the Irish state on this one, nobody would pay to have small metal utensils and tools repaired anymore, you can blame plastic for the decline in that skill. Probably cheaper to buy a new one
Plus we can get a FAS trained welder in anyway for any job. Tinkers are no good to anyone for this anymore.

If they want to trade legally there are any number of markets and car boot sales around the country every week, you can bargain and haggle for hours if you wish. Buy and sell, make a profit.

If it's the three card trick scam at the point to point races, the gardai run them out of the place and rightfully so.

What have I missed? What other skills are they not allowed practice?

murphaph · 14-07-2010 2:04pm

feelingstressed wrote: »

What have I missed? What other skills are they not allowed practice?

Selling milklaptops etc?

Cat Melodeon · 14-07-2010 3:13pm

feelingstressed wrote: »

You can't blame the Irish state on this one, nobody would pay to have small metal utensils and tools repaired anymore, you can blame plastic for the decline in that skill.

...

What have I missed? What other skills are they not allowed practice?

I never said they weren't allowed to practice their skills. I said that the policies pursued by the Irish state focused on trying to settle nomadic Travellers, broke up extended family units and denied them equal access to education. As a result, old skills (like metal working, horse-breaking etc) were not passed on to the next generation nor was there any encouragement for skills that were becoming obsolete to be replaced by something new, eg tinsmiths might have evolved into electrical repair workers under the right circumstances; scrap dealers would benefit from training in recycling/environmental management etc. The misguided policies of the 1970s which aimed to deal with 'the itinerant problem' have been discredited and done away with, but their legacy persists today in the ways in which Travellers continue to be marginalised and your average Irish person sees nothing problematic in saying 'I hate Travellers'. So yes, the State does bear some responsibility in that.

gandalf · 14-07-2010 4:35pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

So yes, the State does bear some responsibility in that.

The State may bear some responsibility from your perspective but surely the Traveller community bears responsibility as well to ensure that all members of their community live their lives within the laws of the land which quite a few clearly don't based on peoples experiences of them.

Answer me something else we hear this phrase "Traveller Culture" trotted out all the time but for the life of me I cannot see what Traveller Culture is these days? I checked the Pavee Point website and beyond some ambiguous rubbish there was nothing substantial. What benefit to Ireland of the 21st Century is Traveller Culture?

Cat Melodeon · 14-07-2010 5:04pm

gandalf wrote: »

The State may bear some responsibility from your perspective but surely the Traveller community bears responsibility as well to ensure that all members of their community live their lives within the laws of the land which quite a few clearly don't based on peoples experiences of them.

Answer me something else we hear this phrase "Traveller Culture" trotted out all the time but for the life of me I cannot see what Traveller Culture is these days? I checked the Pavee Point website and beyond some ambiguous rubbish there was nothing substantial. What benefit to Ireland of the 21st Century is Traveller Culture?

Yes, just as the settled population has a responsibility to ensure that all of it's members live their lives within the laws of the land, yet you and I are not reviled or assumed criminal because of the actions of settled gangland criminals or settled murderers or thieves or whatever.

You may not see anything of value in Traveller culture, you are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I am attracted to their rich heritage of story and song. I also find the Traveller version of Catholicism fascinating. They have their own languages and dialects thereof, traditional family structures that are quite different to those of settled folk, unique traditions and superstitions, a long association with horsecraft etc. What benefit is that to 21st century Ireland? It has the same value as preserving the Irish language, music and oral tradition, or of providing space within our society for other minority cultures, such as Poles or Muslims. I certainly don't want to live in a bland mono-identity state where the only valid way to be is white, settled, middle-class, Catholic and straight and everyone else is seen as somehow wrong or inferior. Sound like some sort of 1930s hell.

T runner · 14-07-2010 5:39pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Maybe because of the same reason you'll find large amounts of people from urban council estates in prison. It doesn't mean that everyone from a council estate is a "subhuman" "animal" "knacker" though does it?

Similarly you'll also find a disproportionately large amount of blacks in jail in countries like the USA and even England, it doesn't mean that black people are inherently criminal either. The fact is that marginalisation and poverty are the main determining factors of crime, not ethnicity.

Well said. Usually it is the people of medium earnings who ultimately it is up to to change and better the society overall. And how are we doing?

Not too well. We idiotically believe that poor people are criminal/semi-savage in nature and we dont see a connection between the poverty of our society and the level of criminality.

Some of the self righteous posters here doing the slating might be counted as "criminal" or even be in jail now were they brought up in situations similar to the people they are slating.

murphaph · 14-07-2010 8:00pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

I never said they weren't allowed to practice their skills. I said that the policies pursued by the Irish state focused on trying to settle nomadic Travellers, broke up extended family units and denied them equal access to education. As a result, old skills (like metal working, horse-breaking etc) were not passed on to the next generation nor was there any encouragement for skills that were becoming obsolete to be replaced by something new, eg tinsmiths might have evolved into electrical repair workers under the right circumstances; scrap dealers would benefit from training in recycling/environmental management etc. The misguided policies of the 1970s which aimed to deal with 'the itinerant problem' have been discredited and done away with, but their legacy persists today in the ways in which Travellers continue to be marginalised and your average Irish person sees nothing problematic in saying 'I hate Travellers'. So yes, the State does bear some responsibility in that.

By the same token the entire populace was denied lots of freedoms normally available in our western neighbour states (catholic church influence) but guess what, people get over things, they bounce back, they don't wallow in self pity. The travellers have had every hand extended to them by the state for the past 20 years....they DON'T WANT TO GRASP THAT HAND.

Btw FTA69, I base my comments here on face to face experience of travellers in and around Clondalkin (where my father used to have his business plagued by them).

murphaph · 14-07-2010 8:10pm

T runner wrote: »

Not too well. We idiotically believe that poor people are criminal/semi-savage in nature and we dont see a connection between the poverty of our society and the level of criminality.

Some of the self righteous posters here doing the slating might be counted as "criminal" or even be in jail now were they brought up in situations similar to the people they are slating.

I beg to differ. I see p!ss poor people in Berlin everyday. The poorest neighbourhoods (Wedding and Neukölln in the west and many former eastern districts) are still perfectly safe places to go. Nobody would be afraid of these places (I live in Neukölln myself) and crime would be rare, much rarer than in an equivalent poor area of Dublin: so explain to me why poverty in Berlin does not lead to no go areas or places you'd never set foot in, yet in Dublin (where welfare payments are MUCH higher) the same cannot be said?

Similarly, in my mother's day, most people were pretty poor, my mother's family included (mother had to go to cousins England for secondary school, not at all uncommon in 1950's Ireland) yet crime was NOT rampant: there was respect for the law and the local guard was feared. Ireland has changed dramatically. Poverty has decreased (even those on welfare are better off in 2010 than many working people in the 1950's) overall yet crime has exploded. Many people in Ireland have indeed become savages and I am sick of excuses being made for these people.

Pittens · 14-07-2010 8:19pm

I've no doubt at one stage travellers were skilled metal workers and tinsmiths. They were tinkers after all

My Grand father was a tinker, in the old form of the word. He did tin work. And he did upholestering. Brought up a big family in a small Irish town. He worked on a piece of scrub land behind a pub - in a pre-fab or shed or somesuch. A picture of him made it into the national gegraphic once - his craggy face making him look 90 when he was 60. Around him in the moody black and white picture was the detrius of his work.

Time moved on. His son, my father went to secondary school on a scholarship, the university and taught. I went to the same state school as both, and am a CTO in England, in an admittedly small company.

The loss of skills is an nonsense excuse. None of us are doing what our grandparents did.

Trust me the settled community would only wish the travellers were not "discriminated" against. They would be Doctors, nurses, teachers and taxi drivers at the same frequency as the rest of us. Our taxes would be lower.

mikemac · 14-07-2010 8:23pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd opine that the majority of people in this country have never even had a conversation with a Traveller and know f*ck all about them really.

If you're from a farming background, it's almost certain you've met plently.
Travelers are not in a few places in Ireland, they are in every county, so no I wouldn't say the majority of Ireland have had no dealings with the exception of our city centers.

Life isn't fair, Ireland even if it is a Republic doesn't treat people equally.
People with mental illness get shamefully judged and little help from the HSE, there is the whole state care and Catholic Church issue, every town in Ireland has a council estate with shocking facilities and the council doesn't care and you have people with good jobs with great dreams and they've been ruined by redundancy.

If Cat Melodeon says our legal system is biased against Travellors then be assured we have the probation act which is a second chance and thank your stars you are not in California with a life sentence for three felony convictions.
If you say our education system doesn't help travelers we have Leaving Cert Applied, Transition year and even free FAS placements. Anyone can be a tradesman if you wish.
And many people will never ever qualify for council housing, but councils do provide this on a points scheme so in theory it's fair and there are many estates for settled travelers. I know Hillside in Galway was a decrepit filthy halting site and now is home to lovely new houses with bays for caravans.

Wallowing in self pity achieves nothing.
Life is what you make of it.
And the Pavee Point group are great for pointing out injustices but with rights come responsibilities.

Show me an injustice and I'll show you where the Irish State for all its failings tried to help you. So use that help and our billions on welfare and education and housing and get in a better situation for you

Wow, I sound like Tony Robbins

Pittens · 14-07-2010 8:24pm

And how are we doing?

Not too well. We idiotically believe that poor people are criminal/semi-savage in nature and we dont see a connection between the poverty of our society and the level of criminality.

How are we doing? Absolutely brilliantly. We support the top end with our taxes - the bankers et. al - and the bottom end, too. We go to work. We pay our way. We pay other people's way. Then you are blaming us for criminality? That is the kind of **** I have heard all my life. The non-criminal tax payers are responsible for the criminality against them, because we dont pay enough taxes? People on €40K a year would end the criminality of millionaire Crime Lords if the social welfare bill was higher and they were poorer?

How can anybody believe that Orwellian claptrap.

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